[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Sounds like BMW is doubling down on shared platforms with the Neue Klasse while other companies and their closest competitors are all going the route of dedicated platforms for EV's. Of course the largest reason for this is cost savings, but I wonder if this will hurt the products. Typically shared platforms present larger compromises for EV's. It will be interesting to see what the future holds.

Well they either do this or have everyone on here complain about an electric M car or why BMW doesn't have straight-six engines. BMW goes one way, people complain. BMW goes the other way, people complain. Regardless of what they do, it's not going to be perfect - they're trying to satisfy as many people as they can.

The most telling sign will be what the i4 brings. If is provides real world range of around 400km and all the stuff you would usually find in a BMW while maintaining a reasonable MSRP, this dual ICE/EV strategy will work. If not, then they might as well go full EV sooner rather than later.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

Well they either do this or have everyone on here complain about an electric M or why BMW doesn't have straight-six engines. BMW goes one way, people complain. BMW goes the other way, people complain. Regardless of what they do, it's not going to be perfect - they're trying to satisfy as many people as they can.

The most telling sign will be what the i4 brings. If is provides real world range of around 400km and all the stuff you would usually find in a BMW while maintaining a reasonable MSRP, this dual ICE/EV strategy will work. If not, then they might as well go full EV sooner rather than later.

It's already more than clear BMW doesn't give a f#!k about our opinion. They should just bring the best platform somehow respecting their virtues of "vehicle dynamics" bringing crisp response and control. All the rest is history, it really is!!!

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

Well they either do this or have everyone on here complain about an electric M car or why BMW doesn't have straight-six engines. BMW goes one way, people complain. BMW goes the other way, people complain. Regardless of what they do, it's not going to be perfect - they're trying to satisfy as many people as they can.

Certainly navigating the waters during this disruptive period is a challenge, but that is true for every traditional automaker. BMW is the only one who has not committed to some type of legacy-free, dedicated platform for electric vehicles. One would have thought that this Neue Klasse initiative presented the perfect opportunity to move in that direction. CLAR and FAAR could still be maintained as needed for traditional vehicles, just as the combustion engine lineup will be.

The most telling sign will be what the i4 brings. If is provides real world range of around 400km and all the stuff you would usually find in a BMW while maintaining a reasonable MSRP, this dual ICE/EV strategy will work. If not, then they might as well go full EV sooner rather than later.

There's little doubt that the i4 and other upcoming electric BMW models will deliver the range and features people want. The question is, will they face scrutiny for not taking better advantage of packaging and design constraints that are removed once you no longer need to support the ICE drivetrain? In the near term, this may not be as important. But by 2025 when most consumers will have had some exposure to the new crop of EVs designed as such from the outset, the discrepancies between the two strategies may begin to present doubts.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

But by 2025 when most consumers will have had some exposure to the new crop of EVs designed as such from the outset, the discrepancies between the two strategies may begin to present doubts.

This was my thought as well. This platform is aimed by 2025 at the earliest (if they stay on time). It doesn't really seem like a future proof plan if developments for EV platforms and efficiency are made. And apparently this platform will also underpin RWD and FWD BMW's while prioritizing EV design and packaging. Personally I think it sounds like a compromised product on both ends of the spectrum for ICE and EV. I think if they had a platform focused for EV's, and continued with another platform for ICE, each type of vehicle would benefit more. This sounds more like a sub-optimal solution, more of a band-aid rather than a proper solution.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

There's little doubt that the i4 and other upcoming electric BMW models will deliver the range and features people want. The question is, will they face scrutiny for not taking better advantage of packaging and design constraints that are removed once you no longer need to support the ICE drivetrain? In the near term, this may not be as important. But by 2025 when most consumers will have had some exposure to the new crop of EVs designed as such from the outset, the discrepancies between the two strategies may begin to present doubts.

To me that's not even a question if the i4 is anything like the current G20/G22. We can all sit here and question why BMW didn't do this or do that. Ultimately what is the end-product? What are you looking for in a BMW EV? We know that the CLAR platform is compromised but if the i4 turns out to be similar to the G20/G22 but as a EV, are we going to sit here and wonder if BMW could have got more than 400km range if they were on a dedicated EV platform? How much EV is enough EV?

Neither Mercedes or Audi have come out with anything reasonable. Mercedes scrapped the EQC for the US, Audi releases the e-tron GT which is unattainable for the majority, is marketed as such and doesn't resonate with most.

We don't know how the i4 is going to play out but it's going to be the number 1 indicator on what BMW should end up doing.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

To me that's not even a question if the i4 is anything like the current G20/G22.

There's no mystery about the i4 at all in that regard. We know for sure that it is an electric G26, which is the hatchback version of the G20. It will be a fine product in 2022 that will no doubt make a splash and move the ball for BMW.

At the same time, it has merely a tangential relationship to the future state of BMW and industry that stein_325i and I are talking about. The announcement of the Neue Klasse takes a step toward acknowledging what he, I, and others have been vocal about - CLAR and FAAR are not the right toolset to compete against dedicated electric platforms coming from Mercedes, VAG, Ford, Hyundai Motor, GM, Toyota/Subaru, Stellantis (yes, even Stellantis). The first examples of vehicles built on these architectures are just hitting the market now, while others have just made their debut (or have imminent debuts) and are coming later this year of next. It will be some time until the industry has a chance to weigh in and process the tangible advantages these products have over those based on legacy designs / processes / parts / philosophies.

Will Neue Klasse with its provisions for combustion powertrains and other legacy vehicle sensibilities be enough for BMW to compete? We don't know yet.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

Neither Mercedes or Audi have come out with anything reasonable. Mercedes scrapped the EQC for the US, Audi releases the e-tron GT which is unattainable for the majority, is marketed as such and doesn't resonate with most.

Mercedes has 4 new EV's debuting on their all new built from the ground up EV platform. EQS Sedan will debut next month, eventually followed by the EQS SUV, and EQE sedan and SUV, among many other planned vehicles.

Audi will have two platforms, VW's MEB platform which will underpin the upcoming Q4 E-Tron which will be unveiled first this year, and Porsche's new EV platform which will underpin the next Macan and Q6 E-Tron.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Mercedes has 6 new EV's debuting on their all new built from the ground up EV platform. EQS Sedan will debut next month, eventually followed by the EQE Sedan, EQS SUV, etc.

Audi will have two platforms, VW's MEB platform which will underpin the upcoming Q4 E-Tron which will be unveiled first this year, and Porsche's new EV platform which will underpin the next Macan and Q6 E-Tron.

Yep. Also:

Hyundai Motors (which includes BMW competitor Genesis) has eGMP which underpins the newly announced Ioniq5 and EV-6.

GM (which includes BMW competitor Cadillac) has BEV3 (plus Ultium) which will form the basis of several upcoming vehicles in including the Hummer pair and the Lyriq.

Ford (which includes luxury division Cadilac) has GE1 which was developed for the newly released Mach-E, and will also use VW's MEB toolkit for small EVs in Europe, and may yet borrow from Rivian as well.

Stellantis has eVMP which will replace their prior EMP2 legacy platform.

[SweEngineer]

There is still room for development on ICE. we can clearly see that a lot has happened the last decade with engines getting more efficient and powerful.
Having seen how Koenigsegg has developed the freevalve engine, it strikes me that it's the only company having a solution that works. The Gemera will be powered with a freevalve engine and also be a phev. Why I mention freevalve is because I see it as the next phase of ICE where fundamental parts are thrown out (camshaft) and new lighter parts taken place.
Obviously efficiency and power will be even higher.
It would be a dream to see such an approach on a BMW with a battery pack that gives about 60 miles/100km of range. Can't see why anybody would pay crazy money on boring EVs then.

[stein_325i]

Some new info from BMWBlog.

Originally Posted by BMWBlog

Just a few days ago, BMW announced the Neue Klasse, which was aid to be electrified but also offer space for internal combustion. It all left fans scratching their heads at the seemingly contradictory announcements.

However, BMW CEO Oliver Zipse recently offered some clarification. The new Neue Klasse of vehicles will be entirely electrified but there will still be the potential for plug-in hybrids with gasoline engines. It will be set up so that the rear axle of all Neue Klasse vehicles is electric. So regardless of whether or not the car is an EV, hybrid, rear-wheel drive, or all-wheel drive, the back axle will only be powered by an electric motor.

There will be certain vehicles that offer gasoline engines up front, likely only small turbocharged four-cylinders, to help power the front wheels, thus creating a hybrid. According to Zipse, the reason for offering hybrids is that many markets around the world lack the ability to use pure EVs. He cited the United States as one such market, where states in the middle of the country lack the charging infrastructure to accommodate pure EVs. BMW also hasn't ruled out hydrogen fuel cell power for the Neue Klasse, either.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Some new info from BMWBlog.

Thanks for posting. It would be nice to have the original source for Zipse's comments.

There's no doubt that PHEVs will play a significant role this decade, and into next. Like BMW, all of the other major manufacturers plan to offer plug in hybrids for as long as necessary. These vehicles will be built predominantly on existing platforms or evolved versions of those platforms.

As I mentioned in a post above, we know BMW has I6 and V8 PHEV setups coming. Since Neue Klasse won't support these (assuming the BMW Blog article is accurate), CLAR must stick around for as long as those remain viable and in demand. It's hard to imagine that timeline will be as short as four or five years since these powertrains have yet to even begin production. Therefore, there will be a period where we have CLAR PHEV and Neue Klasse PHEV. Meanwhile BMW will still be without a dedicated BEV platform that most of the rest of the industry will have long since moved to for their electric vehicle lineups.

[David70]

I agree hybrids are the answer for much of the population for the foreseeable future, whether by true need, fear, or just preference. Hard to find someone where an I4 hybrid doesn't meet all of their requirements. You go where you want, when you want and you're not worried about the negatives of the EV.

I also think BMW and their "do all" chassis in a premium priced product will be a tough sell. They will never beat the others on price, the brand name will get them somewhere but hard to charge more when the product itself is lacking. I bought my current BMW for the engine/chassis, hard to see myself as a customer in the future. Seems to be extremely simple to get great acceleration from an EV and every engine/lack of transmission also seems to have the same character (smooth and silent). Not sure what their selling points will be.

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by David70

Seems to be extremely simple to get great acceleration from an EV and every engine/lack of transmission also seems to have the same character (smooth and silent). Not sure what their selling points will be.

Taycan has shown us that electric car can have great handling and be fun to drive. So, no, not all BEV would drive the same.

[ovekvam]

I am surprised about the engines being four cylinders in the hybrids, after BMW have used three cylinders in those FWD cars with rear electric setups up until now.

I also disagree about hybrids being the answer for many customers. For me, a hybrid is the worst of both worlds, and will be a dead end in the evolution of cars. One of the great benefits of the electric vehicles, is to get rid of all the mechanical complexity and possible sources of errors from the internal combustion driveline. Since the hybrids are heavy and automatic gears only, it is difficult to make them fun and agile to drive. Packaging is also an issue, making the car less practical inside.

I would have wanted BMW to keep developing the i3. Lightweight carbon fibre body, RWD, and more range than today. (I would also prefer if BMW kept developing the F20 one series. Rear wheel drive, agile hatchback with internal combustion engines and manual gearbox. At least until the BEV cars are superior to it.)

[David70]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

Taycan has shown us that electric car can have great handling and be fun to drive. So, no, not all BEV would drive the same.

Take the engine/transmission out of a Porsche and the reasons I might buy it go down. I don't think the Taycan's motor/transmission sound and general powertrain character is any different than the half priced 3's? The differences don't seem to be as significant as the Panamera S and another ICE of similar size that costs half as much.

[r3dbimmer89]

Originally Posted by David70

Take the engine/transmission out of a Porsche and the reasons I might buy it go down. I don't think the Taycan's motor/transmission sound and general powertrain character is any different than the half priced 3's? The differences don't seem to be as significant as the Panamera S and another ICE of similar size that costs half as much.

I think once the ICE is truly out and the EV is in...customers will have to start choosing a brand based on design, perceived quality/value, chassis turning etc. The Taycan and Model 3 are both EV's but obviously Porsche has baked in a bit more to ask for a substantially higher asking price barring range. Comparing a Model 3 to a Taycan, there is a something more special about the Taycan. Maybe I'm biased because I hate the Model 3's minimalist design.