[m4282]

Originally Posted by JRobUSC

My understanding of the ZF transmission is it's modular, meaning it can accept a torque converter, a wet clutch, or even an electric motor. And it's compatible with AWD, something BMW's current M-DCT is not. I don't know what the limitations are in terms of electric motor power but I personally think the possibilities with that transmission are pretty exciting. Imagine the upcoming 600+hp 4.0L twin turbo V8 coupled with a 200hp electric motor and xDrive -- that would make for a pretty damn compelling drivetrain in a future M.

Yes but there is something to be said about rear wheel drive powerful cars. Take the 991 for example in a s format vs 4s, I've driven both and they are wonderful cars truly balanced in every way- but the 4s just felt too clinical and near effortless to take it around the course where the rwd s felt more raw and in need of a control and better connection with the driver. it's this feeling people are complaining about....

[phil_]

What I really don't like is BMW giving out this news and not explaining why.
If it is better than tell us why. Would it be that difficult to take 5 minutes to explain the advantages of the zf8 vs DTC?

Personally at this price point I expect innovative technology. The new M5 is dropping the DTC, dropping the manual and using the same engine as last generation. What will make the new M5 special? Tell us!

After 10 years with BMW I'm taking the plunge with Porsche. Bought a used Panamera Turbo S which does AWD and dual clutch

[vladislav]

"He said about 450 horsepower (335kW) and 600Nm was more or less the limit of manual-gearbox durability. Beyond that, he said, durability couldn't be guaranteed"....................... the most stupid thing i've ever heard from M division. Just say: we want more money

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by phil_

What I really don't like is BMW giving out this news and not explaining why. If it is better than tell us why. Would it be that difficult to take 5 minutes to explain the advantages of the zf8 vs DTC?

"As for dual-clutch transmissions, Quintus said the advantages they once offered over an automatic, such as their lighter weight and superior shift speed, were no longer apparent."

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Yes. That's what I've been saying through all my posts in this thread. And if you read this post I made:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=35

You'll see how I state that BMW must have half a$$ed the implementation of the DCT in the 135i. And I've stated repeated in this thread where if BMW didn't want to properly implement the DCT in the 135i, they should have just kept the ZF from the N54 and not change over with the N55.

If you would have clarified from the get-go that your DCT comments were limited to the 1 series, that would have been a different story.

That being said, try the DCT in an M car - I think you'd be pleasantly surprised...

[JNoSol]

F85/86 are ZF Auto, you cannot tell it's not DCT. Corvette Z06 and Alfa Romeo Quadrifoglio are also ZF Auto. With proper software l, faster solenoids, and higher fluid pressure, the auto could easily mimic the DCT. It boils down to cost and reliability.

[YasM4]

Originally Posted by JsL

Which car company does DCT implementation better? Not trying to be a smart a**, just curious.

Porsche PDK is the best (from experience)

[m4282]

Originally Posted by YasM4

Porsche PDK is the best (from experience)

Agreed PDK>DCT>MT

[Eau_Rouge111]

There is nothing better than in a proper sports car on a twisty road than to shift one's own gears. I know modern autos and DCT are faster but God blessed me with two full functioning arms and two fully functioning legs so...BMW...let me shift my own damn gears!

[mundo74]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

10 gears is great for... fuel economy.

it is not good for a track. see car and driver review of the camaro zl1 10 speed. They just let the computer take over.

There is a problem when you are shifting through that many gears entering a turn and exiting. the driver interaction becomes a distraction.

"The sheer number of gears removes a lot of the joy from manually paddling through the cogs. Not to mention that downshifts in this mode feel significantly slower and clunkier than when the gearbox is left to its own devices. Engineers did attempt to address the tedium of toggling through six or seven or ten gears by writing code that jumps to the lowest possible gear when you hold the left shift paddle, but we found the system to be wildly inconsistent. Sometimes the downshift was nearly instantaneous. At other times, whole seconds passed before the shift occurred. And sometimes, inexplicably, there was no shift at all, no matter how long we held the paddle."

One thing when you drive a sports car is you need the car to be consistent at all times, engine torque, hp, tranny response, handling. that is what makes a sports car great- that is how to become part of the machine, you know exactly what it will do at exactly the right time.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...l1-test-review

like i said. 10 speed is for 18 wheelers and the fuel savings is a paper excercise. with so many gears its like you are driving a CVT.

[Hymiet]

Looks like Porsche is working with ZF on a 2 and 4 Wheel Drive DCT.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/527515/m...ght-speed-dct/

Is BMW not able to work with them on the same? Or is it possible that the new M5 ZF Box could be related to the ones in this article?

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

If you would have clarified from the get-go that your DCT comments were limited to the 1 series, that would have been a different story.

That being said, try the DCT in an M car - I think you'd be pleasantly surprised...

I did clarify what car I had in my earlier posts had you bothered to read them. And my profile states I have a 2013 135i.

But I may try out a M car with a DCT to see how much better it is. As I said before, it's a crying shame it's clear BMW just threw something together for the 135i and didn't put any effort into it.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by Bosozoku

Agree. All Ferraris, for example, have sadly gone flappy-paddle DCT.

Exhibit A: Ferrari 488 with 661 hp + 561 lb·ft
Exhibit B: Ferrari F12 with 730 hp + 509 lb·ft
Exhibit C: Ferrari LaFerrari with 950 bhp + 664 lb·ft.
(Statistics courtesy of Wikipedia.)

"He said about 450 horsepower (335kW) and 600Nm was more or less the limit of manual-gearbox durability. ..."

I think what he meant was "450 horsepower and 600Nm are more or less the limit of the old manual gearbox and/or DCT that we developed years and years ago, and we are unwilling to develop a new manual gearbox and/or DCT that can handle more. Because our bean-counters have gone wild."

Those resources are now directed towards electric and autonomous vehicles.

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Those resources are now directed towards electric and autonomous vehicles.

Agree, comes down to cost.

Bugatti, Porsche, Ferrari, McLaren all use DCTs that deal with 600ft-lbs plus of torque, no reason BMW can't jump on the band wagon but cost to benefit ratio, with the common core customers in mind.

[m4282]

Originally Posted by DocWeatherington

Agree, comes down to cost.

Bugatti, Porsche, Ferrari, McLaren all use DCTs that deal with 600ft-lbs plus of torque, no reason BMW can't jump on the band wagon but cost to benefit ratio, with the common core customers in mind.

This says it all- BMW wants to now make m cars for "all" not just for enthusiasts. That's the problem. The f8x is a good example- it's a street car which is trackable rather than track car that can be driven in the street- mclaren, and the new 991.2s and up is track focused first and street second.

Don't get me wrong I love my m4 but it's not track first and this is ok for me as while I autox it and do DE events I haul groceries and my two kids more often than I do autox or DE events

[pimp4cheddar]

Originally Posted by Ric in RVA

If you haven't driven a ZF 8 speed it really is amazing. One of the only auto transmissions I have ever driven that remotely comes close to being acceptable.

The shift quality is amazing, the down shifts even more so.

BMW uses a ZF locked into shiftable manual mode on some of its race cars.

The biggest reason manual will go away? Auto braking.

If the feds mandate auto braking there is no way to down shift a true manual to keep the car capable of operating in an auto braking mode. (without getting into some SMG bs)

And of all the self driving car things coming auto braking will be one of the first to be implemented as it has huge potential for safety.

Please note I don't agree with where it is going and will always choose a manual over an auto, but it is going this way.

So get em while you can!!!

So true. I picked up an M235i with the ZF 8spd and I never looked back to my E92 6spd. It's such a solid transmission...hands down.

I think those that haven't driven them wouldn't understand as I didn't either until I was handed the keys.

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by JNoSol

F85/86 are ZF Auto, you cannot tell it's not DCT. Corvette Z06 and Alfa Romeo Quadrifoglio are also ZF Auto. With proper software l, faster solenoids, and higher fluid pressure, the auto could easily mimic the DCT. It boils down to cost and reliability.

So does the F-Type RS.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by m4282

This says it all- BMW wants to now make m cars for "all" not just for enthusiasts. That's the problem. The f8x is a good example- it's a street car which is trackable rather than track car that can be driven in the street- mclaren, and the new 991.2s and up is track focused first and street second.

Don't get me wrong I love my m4 but it's not track first and this is ok for me as while I autox it and do DE events I haul groceries and my two kids more often than I do autox or DE events

Well that's been going on for quite awhile. BMW has been making the X5/6 "M" monstrosities for some years now.

[m4282]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

Well that's been going on for quite awhile. BMW has been making the X5/6 "M" monstrosities for some years now.

Except the X5/6M don't belong on a track either in second or third afterthoughts- at least the f8x can go on a track even as a second preference....

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by m4282

This says it all- BMW wants to now make m cars for "all" not just for enthusiasts. That's the problem. The f8x is a good example- it's a street car which is trackable rather than track car that can be driven in the street- mclaren, and the new 991.2s and up is track focused first and street second.

Don't get me wrong I love my m4 but it's not track first and this is ok for me as while I autox it and do DE events I haul groceries and my two kids more often than I do autox or DE events

The M3 hasn't been track focused since the first M3.
The M3/M4 is built off of a sedan chassis, and the Porsche 911 is a sports car. You should know this since you have an M4. It is not a sports car. It is not meant for the track first, street second. And many complain that the Porsche has gotten softer as it grown to cater to a larger customer base . If BMW wanted a more track focused 3/4 series and M3/M4, then they would not have gone and stretched the wheel base of the E9X platform and made it heavier. They would have lengthened it a tad compared to the e46 and tried to keep similar proportions. But that would not have been a good business decision. Again, the 911 is a sports car, just like the Corvette. The M4 based off of the F3X chassis is not a sports car or has a sports car chassis, it is compromised.

But, I do agree with your first point. BMW knows that there are a lot of people who go to the dealership and just want the most expensive car, which is generally the M cars. Just like they do at the Mercedes dealership---they go for the AMG models. Or the Audi dealership---the RS models. Or the Caddy dealership---the V models. And for these people, who go and just buy the most expensive model don't want harsh rides, body hugging seats, loud exhausts, high revving engines, and cars that feel like race cars. They don't care about 0-60 times, they care about "wafting easily through traffic". They don't care about 60-0 braking, but they care about brake caliper colors and the car knowing that something is in front of them and braking for them. They don't care about carbon roofs, but they do care about interiors and how they go with their Breitling or Rolex. And most important, they care about what others think of them.

[opihi5]

Originally Posted by JRobUSC

My understanding of the ZF transmission is it's modular, meaning it can accept a torque converter, a wet clutch, or even an electric motor. And it's compatible with AWD, something BMW's current M-DCT is not. I don't know what the limitations are in terms of electric motor power but I personally think the possibilities with that transmission are pretty exciting. Imagine the upcoming 600+hp 4.0L twin turbo V8 coupled with a 200hp electric motor and xDrive -- that would make for a pretty damn compelling drivetrain in a future M.

You won't be so happy when the next m3 is 4cyl turbo hybrid.

Bmw is going downhill, I'm sticking with American muscle and "heavy" manual transmission for the next car.

[AlterZgo]

The comments about manuals not being strong enough to handle the high HP and torque seems to be a crock of crap. Even back in the import tuner days, a turbocharged Civic putting out 500 hp and 400+ ft/lbs of torque did not blow up manual transmissions which were designed to only handle 190 hp and 150 ft/lbs of torque.

I have rarely, if ever, heard of manual transmissions blowing up due to wear and tear or too much HP on fixed up cars running 2-3x or more stock hp and torque. What we usually see are worn out clutches and money shifts blowing them up. That's it. OTOH, I see many many many complaints, stories, etc. about old school automatics not being able to handle the HP, dodgy "upgrades" sold by Level 10 and their ilk that provide minimal if any gains in power handling, or no upgrades at all for standard automatics to handle more power.

How the heck does Ford and Chevrolet build manual equipped GT500s and Z06s if "450 hp and 600Nm (442 lb/ft) of torque was more or less the limit of manual-gearbox durability?" These cars make about 200 more hp and torque and seem to have reliable manuals.