[AlpineBoost]

Originally Posted by Clark_Kent

I've owned a host of vehicles over the years with varying engine and transmission layouts. Front engine, mid-engine, no engine (EV), FWD, RWD, AWD and what's most curious to me is this strong aversion to FWD cars. What I've gathered is people are put off by the idea of a FWD car. Assuming the primary use case is a daily driver, in most cases you can't tell a FWD car from an AWD car from a RWD car. It's primarily on a race track, when the car is being driven at the limit, can you tell the difference. Torque steer won't ruin your jaunt to Whole Foods. Wheel hop won't kill the mood for date night with your significant other. Uneven weight distribution won't prevent you from hitting 90 mph on an interstate entrance ramp. It's all a little foolish and a bit of a reach to try to overlay the inherent weaknesses of a FWD car on every day driving, because let's be honest, most of these cars we're discussing rarely if ever see material track time.

But you're right. It's all personal preference. There are some cars I absolutely will not buy, for one reason or another and because of that, it's personal.

How are torque steer and wheel hop on the CTR and ITS? I assume Honda has it sorted better than VW and Hyundai. Our DSG Passat doesn't wheel hop much but the torque steer on that car sucks with 280 hp/258 lb-ft up front. I've had bad wheel hop in the Veloster N only a couple times but for whatever reason the torque steer is kind of fun for that car

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by billnchristy

I would arguably agree if you weren't talking about the FWD cars that have made FWD cars cool again. The speeds and agility the CTR (and assumingly the acura) have proven at the track, along with Hyundai's offerings have kind of proven that a lot of those issues can and have been overcome.

Everything you mentioned (besides launching, which yeah, have to give you that one) is not "fast" it's just fun. Hooning around will get you a pretty lousy lap time and on the street probably lands you in a Mustang leaving a car show video.

we're all entitled to opinions... my old M2C was the definition of fun... granted not at a CTR price point but I don't see how any FWD car could come close to it in the fun department... if I was looking for "cheaper" fun... I may have to side to a Golf R or Corolla GR

[Clark_Kent]

Originally Posted by AlpineBoost

How are torque steer and wheel hop on the CTR and ITS? I assume Honda has it sorted better than VW and Hyundai. Our DSG Passat doesn't wheel hop much but the torque steer on that car sucks with 280 hp/258 lb-ft up front. I've had bad wheel hop in the Veloster N only a couple times but for whatever reason the torque steer is kind of fun for that car

You are correct, it's very well sorted and virtually non-existant. The front end grip is something to behold. The reviews are spot on with respect to driving dynamics, transmission, and overall performance. I can only speak for the FL5 CTR. I did not drive the ITS long enough nor navigate various scenarios to make a declarative statement.

[MmmmmM2]

I just can't go back to driving a FWD vehicle for any reason. I'm just such a RWD fan now (I don't even like AWD).

My last FWD vehicle was a 2009 GTI. That car handled great for a FWD.

But when the power is at the front wheels, just count me out. I'm over it (besides my wife's CX-5 which is just our touring/grocery getter/all things under the sun vehicle).

[335i54n]

its all about weight, seems bmw forgot and uses sheer performance and driver aids to move that mass around

i think the ITS is awesome, too bad honda doesnt make a good dct trans to pair with it to capture more interest/sales

[Ricochet48]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I agree w this.. there are a TON of cars that i've read about in the papers and then actually drove them and they didn't align... I personally think I would really like the CTR even if its FWD... BUT at a $50K price point, it becomes hard for me to fathom... when a 1 year old M340i comes into play and fundamentally has everything that is better... it has the penalty of weight and steering feel but I'll take that given what else the car is offering.

At $52K MSRP the ITS is right between the M240i and xDrive versions. The BMW is much faster in a straight line (especially with xDrive from a dig) and oddly enough gets much better highway MPG. It also has many more luxury options standard like a sunroof and rear vents. If you option out the Premium pack and HK system, you just add $3K, so still within striking distance.

A M340i with the 19" wheels, Premium, HK, and sport packs runs $60.5K though, which is in another league. As hinted, you would need to look at the used market to be in the $50K's. I don't need the space and think the M240i looks much sportier, so I personally would not though. In general 1-2 years used is the way so someone else pays for the big depreciation hit (but that's another discussion).

Whenever I bring up either of these options on Integra forums, fb groups, YT, etc. the main response I get is "BMW's don't last and are expensive to maintain". To me that's such 1990's thinking. The B58 is a reliable work of art (so much so that Toyota used it for the Supra). An oil change will be more for the larger engine, but will be countered by the better MPG noted. Depreciation hits BMW harder, but we are talking like 5% more in 5 years, which is fairly minimal. I plan to keep my next car for over a decade so this is even more irrelevant to me. I'm mostly concerned about repair & parts costs, but I don't think they would be THAT much more expensive on a M240ix than a ITS.

[Ricochet48]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I wouldn't call many of those cars "fanboy" cars. Also, you seem to be very hung up on all out acceleration. For some of us, it's more than just straight line acceleration.

The CTR has always commanded a premium since intro decades (whether getting ADM or MSRP) and the CTR has always been a class-leading performer.

After a few months, the ITS will be available at MSRP and possibly below.

No one gets base model BMWs. A M240 RWD will set you back at least $53K with the common options and a 340 in the low to mid 60s. An ITS will likely outrun the 340 and 240 on a road course. In a drag race? The BMWs will easily take the win. Road course? Likely not and they'll be far more less engaging and muted.

The Zs will be selling for below MSRP soon. The excitement is over and the demand is LOW. I have yet to see one in Kansas City.

The BRZ/86 are entry level sports cars that are bargains for what they offer.

I have a 2011 Cayman 6MT base model with 265hp. That car is good for low 5 second 0-60s and maybe mid 13s@102mph. I also have a tuned 2016 M235 6MT with suspension and tires/wheels that can run mid 12s@112mph+. You know which car is FAR MORE FUN to drive and I'll take 90%+ of the time? The slower Cayman.

The majority of drivers car about straight line acceleration as they can flex that more often. I don't live close to any twisties anymore, just city driving in Chicago, so I can rarely take advantage of the handling of my RSX-S.

The ITS is already at MSRP, you just had to look (threads on some of the ITS forums had dealership listed). The CTR MSRP just makes the $7K jump look insane, but that's because nobody is getting the CTR at MSRP.

BMW options are less than you'd think. Comparing apples to apples, I just had to add the heated steering wheel to the ITS, bringing the total to about $51.5K, a RWD M240i with premium & HK is $51.7K. A similar spec'd M340i is just over $60K a hinted.

Z's are interesting as the base model sounds like such a steal at first, but then you realize it lacks so many goodies (most notably a LSD). When you get the performance version, it's way to close to the Supra imo, especially now that it has a 6MT option that used to be a major selling point of the Z over it.

Agree on the BRZ/86. If I was 10-15 years younger I would have had one of those instead of my RSX-S.

Finally, I agree that driving at 90% is generally more fun. That's why I would want something extreme like a Lotus Elise as a side car, but a heavier, more luxurious, AWD beast like the M240i for a daily.

[Ricochet48]

Originally Posted by Clark_Kent

Has your position softened on the ITS now that it's available and the reviews are out?

I would say slightly, but my general framing of the value proposition has changed even more.

I have been roasted on the Integra forums, facebook group, and YouTube for comparing the M240i to the ITS... which I find odd as the RWD & AWD versions are literally right between the ITS' MSRP.

Most don't understand that I don't necessarily need all that rear seat space, but it wouldn't be a huge 'negative' to have it. A 2-seater (Z, Supra) would not work for me, but the modest size of the M240i would be fine, especially comparing to rear of my RSX. Additionally a 6MT is not a must for me either. In traffic today it was brutal and the ZF8 is miles ahead of the offerings when the RSX was released.

Anyways, when Acura released the chart comparing to the (FWD based) M235i, CLA 35, and S3 it's clear they didn't care about the M240i. Comparing to those 3, after specing them accordingly the ITS clearly wins unless AWD is a must for you. I personally spec'd what I would get and got the S3 to $54,600 (Prestige and Sport trims), CLA 35 at $54,600 (19's, Premium, Sport, Sound), and M235i at $51,525 (19's, Premium, HK).

I feel where the competition gets hairier is when you add in a Golf R and CTR at MSRP. Both have plenty of space, a 6MT, and are significantly cheaper. Even more so the $7K bump from the CTR just is not there (and they even removed things from the Integra Aspec like the sunroof!); however, it's still a better value than the S3, CLA 35, and M235i... so I guess that further proves why people are overpaying for the CTR if anything.

The reviews all seem quite positive, but also note the price... then they basically say there's no other manual options and the CTR is marked up even more. I want to see a review that compares it to the M240i though, but I doubt many will.

I am glad the ITS is a thing, as it's clearly a driver focused option. At my stage in life it's just not anywhere near the best value. I won't be buying for 2 years so perhaps prices might level out by then. At this stage the LCI M240ix is looking like my clear choice. If I had a family, lived closer to twisties and further from snow, the ITS would be much more appealing though.

Chart because that's just how I think haha:

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Ricochet48

The majority of drivers car about straight line acceleration as they can flex that more often. I don't live close to any twisties anymore, just city driving in Chicago, so I can rarely take advantage of the handling of my RSX-S.

The ITS is already at MSRP, you just had to look (threads on some of the ITS forums had dealership listed). The CTR MSRP just makes the $7K jump look insane, but that's because nobody is getting the CTR at MSRP.

BMW options are less than you'd think. Comparing apples to apples, I just had to add the heated steering wheel to the ITS, bringing the total to about $51.5K, a RWD M240i with premium & HK is $51.7K. A similar spec'd M340i is just over $60K a hinted.

Z's are interesting as the base model sounds like such a steal at first, but then you realize it lacks so many goodies (most notably a LSD). When you get the performance version, it's way to close to the Supra imo, especially now that it has a 6MT option that used to be a major selling point of the Z over it.

Agree on the BRZ/86. If I was 10-15 years younger I would have had one of those instead of my RSX-S.

Finally, I agree that driving at 90% is generally more fun. That's why I would want something extreme like a Lotus Elise as a side car, but a heavier, more luxurious, AWD beast like the M240i for a daily.

That's exactly right... most folks will say why have all that straight line power and speed when you can't use it anyways... well i always ask the reverse... where in the world am i supposed to use this handling? I can't take turns at 9/10s nor do I live in a canyon, curved area... most roads in this country are flat and YOU can always use power, at least to a degree.

Even most boring cars i.e. Teslas, heavier SUVs and Cars lean towards power over handling... why? because manufacturers know that's what almost everyone is looking for in a daily driver over handling (that could also compromise comfort)... this is what BMW does so well IMHO, a good mix.

[Mingwan]

Worst one I’ve seen was almost 100k. Surprised to not see higher ones yet to be honest.

[Clark_Kent]

Originally Posted by Ricochet48

I would say slightly, but my general framing of the value proposition has changed even more.

I have been roasted on the Integra forums, facebook group, and YouTube for comparing the M240i to the ITS... which I find odd as the RWD & AWD versions are literally right between the ITS' MSRP.

Most don't understand that I don't necessarily need all that rear seat space, but it wouldn't be a huge 'negative' to have it. A 2-seater (Z, Supra) would not work for me, but the modest size of the M240i would be fine, especially comparing to rear of my RSX. Additionally a 6MT is not a must for me either. In traffic today it was brutal and the ZF8 is miles ahead of the offerings when the RSX was released.

Anyways, when Acura released the chart comparing to the (FWD based) M235i, CLA 35, and S3 it's clear they didn't care about the M240i. Comparing to those 3, after specing them accordingly the ITS clearly wins unless AWD is a must for you. I personally spec'd what I would get and got the S3 to $54,600 (Prestige and Sport trims), CLA 35 at $54,600 (19's, Premium, Sport, Sound), and M235i at $51,525 (19's, Premium, HK).

I feel where the competition gets hairier is when you add in a Golf R and CTR at MSRP. Both have plenty of space, a 6MT, and are significantly cheaper. Even more so the $7K bump from the CTR just is not there (and they even removed things from the Integra Aspec like the sunroof!); however, it's still a better value than the S3, CLA 35, and M235i... so I guess that further proves why people are overpaying for the CTR if anything.

The reviews all seem quite positive, but also note the price... then they basically say there's no other manual options and the CTR is marked up even more. I want to see a review that compares it to the M240i though, but I doubt many will.

I am glad the ITS is a thing, as it's clearly a driver focused option. At my stage in life it's just not anywhere near the best value. I won't be buying for 2 years so perhaps prices might level out by then. At this stage the LCI M240ix is looking like my clear choice. If I had a family, lived closer to twisties and further from snow, the ITS would be much more appealing though.

Chart because that's just how I think haha:

All the YouTube videos, Car and Driver articles, and spreadsheets cannot fill in for actual seat time. Serious question and no judgement but, have you driven any of these cars?

[Ricochet48]

Originally Posted by Clark_Kent

All the YouTube videos, Car and Driver articles, and spreadsheets cannot fill in for actual seat time. Serious question and no judgement but, have you driven any of these cars?

Nope, not a one of them.

I honestly barely drive period as my condo has a 99 transit score above the subway and a grocery store. I walk and bike everywhere. Hence why my RSX has less than 50K miles on it. My next car will be for another decade plus and also lightly driven.

I do know I want a sunroof, traffic in a 6MT can be terrible, AWD helps in the snow, the M240i has much better from a stop acceleration (which is 95% of my driving), and most of the internet thinks the ITS is a bad deal. So ya based on that I think my choice is made. I also bought my RSX-S without every driving it (or even knowing how to drive stick haha).

[Clark_Kent]

Originally Posted by Ricochet48

Nope, not a one of them.

I honestly barely drive period as my condo has a 99 transit score above the subway and a grocery store. I walk and bike everywhere. Hence why my RSX has less than 50K miles on it. My next car will be for another decade plus and also lightly driven.

I do know I want a sunroof, traffic in a 6MT can be terrible, AWD helps in the snow, the M240i has much better from a stop acceleration (which is 95% of my driving), and most of the internet thinks the ITS is a bad deal. So ya based on that I think my choice is made. I also bought my RSX-S without every driving it (or even knowing how to drive stick haha).

BLUF: Drive the car. If you're remotely interested, or at least curious, drive the car while you can. Once the demos are gone, good luck finding a dealership that will let you joyride in one of these cars.

The value of the ITS depends on which corner of the Internet you find yourself. Some think it's a bad buy, and others (primarily on Integra Forums) believe it's adequately priced and is a high-value proposition. What I find even more fascinating than the differing views is the phenomenon of people holding strong views about cars they've never driven. Most people with an opinion on the ITS haven't even driven the vehicle. How can you take a position on it if you didn't even drive it? That's like saying a movie sucks and you didn't even see it, you watched the theatrical trailers, and teasers, and read reviews instead.

[07ImolaRot]

Originally Posted by Mingwan

Worst one I’ve seen was almost 100k. Surprised to not see higher ones yet to be honest.

80 thousand fucking dollars for a dressed up civic with a boy racer 3 tip exhaust down the center. No thank you ! I wouldn't even pay the ask MSRP for it to be honest. For 35k you can find yourself a proper sports car like a Z4M or S2k.

[supra93]

https://www.integraforums.com/forum/...-videos.51065/

[p0p]

Can I get a Prelude?

[AlpineBoost]

Originally Posted by p0p

Can I get a Prelude?

Unfortunately it seems those days are behind us. I'm not yet a fan of EV's but for some time now I've felt it would be the perfect time to reintroduce the Prelude as a small 2 door EV sports car. It would be very fitting of the name. Instead we get the Prologue SUV

[flybigjet]

I saw an Integra in the parking lot of the dealer the other day. Honestly? It didn't look bad.

R.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by supra93

What a horrible front end. 0/10.

[EDWYER]

I can never get past that front bird beak.

[Randy Johnson]

I had a 2007 TL Type-S. I would buy the new TLX Type-S way before this crap!!!

[Clark_Kent]

Originally Posted by Randy Johnson

I had a 2007 TL Type-S. I would buy the new TLX Type-S way before this crap!!!

Be easy, the TLX Type S is a bad buy at nearly $60K. Have you driven one? Have you read the reviews? The transmission is subpar, the engine is nothing to get excited about, and it weighs >4,200 lbs. This car had all the makings of something really good and Acura ruined it. I will say, it's a good looking car.