[LOW4LYF]

Originally Posted by hinckley

Sorry, but it's obvious that you're just not informed about that market. I'm currently working on an order for a new C2S Cab. Well equipped, it will have an MSRP of around $163k. When I price a M8C vert, it comes out to $161k. No ceramic brakes on either car.

If you really understood the Porsche brand, you'd know that you never talk about a "fully loaded" car. In the case of my $163k C2S, it will be "very well equipped", but fully loaded - checking all the boxes - it would cost over $200k. If you've ordered a Porsche, you'd know that there are well over 200 options to chose from. Want the steering column or sun visors in leather? That's an option. Do you want the headlight washers in chrome or body color? There are three different extra cost options for the finish of the rear badge and five different finishes for the back of one of four types of seats available. No one buys a fully loaded Porsche. Many buy fully loaded BMWs.

Best example Porsche and BMW are no competition...lol
Thanks for pointing that out.

BMW is more Mainstream and definitely not in the same price league as P Cars.

On the M8 I am sure you can get a nice discount, not sure about the C2S.

BMW was always "cheap" or affordable when it comes to leasing, specially the M brand compared to Porsche, AMG or Audi RS.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by Mo@

Audi pulled the plug on their Euro Delivery two or three years ago also. Sad to see the trend continue with BMW. I had dealt with clients that went with BMW simply due to the Euro Delivery experience.

Yes, sad and pointless. Just offer it, if only a few take it, then so be it. I recall audi killing theirs just as I was interested in an S3. I was already bummed they didn't offer manual, then killing ED was the last straw. BMW is switching to volume now. People are not really into what the previous generation cared about in terms of true driving dynamics so natural progression so good luck. We can't say it's a mistake, they are making billions so who cares what a few think. At least they still offer a few manual M cars but that will end soon too. So smoke them while you have them. If you enjoy manuals, it's crazy to not get one now, they are done and by the time you get around to order one they won't be available just as those that kept putting off ED, will no longer be able to get it. It was an amazing experience too.

I must also add that a lot of these things are self fulfilling prophecies. I am not into conspiracies but sometimes it feels that someone wants to prove that ED or manuals aren't viable so they rig the rules to cause their demise. Case in point Audi. They quit offering manuals on the cars that enthusiasts wanted in a manual like the S3 and RS3. Even if they were to offer them, you would have to buy it without testing it because no one stocked one. Then they would offer manuals as an economy option on lowly A3s. No one is buying manuals as an economy option anymore. So when no one would order an stripper A3 manual they said...oh manuals don't sell. Meanwhile there are online petitions to bring manual S3s or RS3s.

Same with BMW dealers. They would order a single manual M3 with NAV, extended leather bamboo colored and Executive Package and add a $10K markup and you can't test drive it. Or they would add $10K in carbon fiber bits in Java green. So the lone single manual would sit there for months then they would decree...see I told you manuals don't sell.

Finally, with ED, they dropped the discount from 7% to 5% and since the 1M started to take the ED cars out of the dealers allocation where before they were usually not counted against it. Dealers didn't want to deal with it and made it difficult for you. They didn't let people know about it. So they drop the discount and say...no one wants to take it now. Gee, we we were right no one wants ED. Yes, a lot of SUVs nowadays and M2 will be made in Mexico too so that is another factor but it's hard to see how they made it less appealing to people then say oh, no one wants it.

Oh well, glad I did mine, but sad for the few remaining old school fans that will miss out. There were two things that would make me buy a new BMW again... a manual offering and ED. I guess I better take really good care of two current ones for the long haul.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by LOW4LYF

Best example Porsche and BMW are no competition...lol
Thanks for pointing that out.

BMW is more Mainstream and definitely not in the same price league as P Cars.

On the M8 I am sure you can get a nice discount, not sure about the C2S.

BMW was always "cheap" or affordable when it comes to leasing, specially the M brand compared to Porsche, AMG or Audi RS.

If Porsche were that easy a jump, all of these members who always claim they'd be in a Porsche would be. They would've never bought a BMW in the first place.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by hinckley

It sounds like you may be thinking that Porsche = 911, or maybe 911 + 718. But the 911 and 718 make up less than 25% of Porsche's sales. The 911 makes up less than 15%.

When it comes to us M drivers, the 911 is the focus. It's the "logical" next step that nearly every M driver cites. So, yes, in this case we are focusing on the 911 when we're talking Porsche sports cars, not SUV's.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by R N M

Completely agree.

M3/M4 is about $80-90k on a decent spec.
M5 is well over $100k

boxster /Cayman is $65k plus
911 starts at $100k
Macan, Panamera, Cayenne can be compared to X3, X5, X6, X7
There is ton of overlap in price and models.

Porsche is definitely more expensive but its not Ferrari $$$ by any means. Most Porsche owners come from BMW.

Yes they do, because BMW is a stepping stone. The Porsche price of entry isn't anything to balk at when comparing it to a similarly optioned M3/M4, otherwise we'd all be driving 911's. A fully loaded M3/M4 can be had with discounts, lease/purchase friendly financing, etc. Not everybody paid $80-90k for their M3's by any means (..after discounts and incentives it's more like low 70's; one need only look at one of the many "How much did you pay?" threads to get an idea, and we all know how finance friendly BMW is). The equivalent Porsche is well over the $100k mark without the friendly financing options. To act like there is parity between the two is disingenuous.

[TXSchnee]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

If Porsche were that easy a jump, all of these members who always claim they'd be in a Porsche would be. They would've never bought a BMW in the first place.

I am personally moving to Porsche from BMW. Have a Cayenne on order after being really disappointed in the G05 X5 (and yes the Cayenne is costing me $23k more than the X5 and invoice is over six figures). I wanted to stay with BMW, as I had liked my F25, F15 and current G01, but they have gone away from good looks and athleticism and seem more concerned about the Chinese market (big grills) and capturing the Lexus demographic (weird steering and soft suspensions). Closing down the ED program, when it didn't cost them anything is just another bad move on BMWs part, they complain that only 500 people from the US do it, but did they compare how many US residents do PCD vs EU residents do the Welt? That is probably much closer in numbers, and would show they are being short sighted.

[JCZ5]

@Sedan_Clan can we sticky these points in the beginning of the thread and have it pop up on people's phones so they see it again and again?

I feel like the Porsche vs. BMW debate comes on every page or so. Not to mention this thread is about ED closing down. We all know there are people who feel like they missed an opportunity. Also people who say they will never buy a BMW ever again! *grumble grumble raw raw*

Guess what, BMW does not care...they have plenty of people picking up the slack. In fact, I'm in talks with area dealers right now to find a M2C. Last year, I bought a X5 and getting a M2C this year. Guess that covers the two people that vow to never return.

Take home message: Buy a Porsche if you can, they're so much better...Unless you need more utility and do not want to spend Porsche money

[hinckley]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

If Porsche were that easy a jump, all of these members who always claim they'd be in a Porsche would be. They would've never bought a BMW in the first place.

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

When it comes to us M drivers, the 911 is the focus. It's the "logical" next step that nearly every M driver cites. So, yes, in this case we are focusing on the 911 when we're talking Porsche sports cars, not SUV's.

I've been lucky enough to own BMWs for over 35 years and Porsches for over 20 years. I know both brands pretty well and the subtlety of some of my arguments has been lost for some.

Porsches generally cost more than BMWs. But for the majority of Porsche and BMW sales (those in the SUV segment), the "off the lot" price is not significantly different. I was just pointing out that you can't think about a fully optioned Porsche in the same way you think about a fully optioned BMW. And in the real world (the off the lot world), the prices aren't so different.

If, when you say "Porsche", you really mean "911", then in no way do you compare that Porsche to a 3 or 4 series. BMW's comparable car to the 911 is the 8 series. Porsche does not have a 3 or 4 series comp.

[JCZ5]

Originally Posted by hinckley

I've been lucky enough to own BMWs for over 35 years and Porsches for over 20 years. I know both brands pretty well and the subtlety of some of my arguments has been lost for some.

Porsches generally cost more than BMWs. But for the majority of Porsche and BMW sales (those in the SUV segment), the "off the lot" price is not significantly different. I was just pointing out that you can't think about a fully optioned Porsche in the same way you think about a fully optioned BMW. And in the real world (the off the lot world), the prices aren't so different.

If, when you say "Porsche", you really mean "911", then in no way do you compare that Porsche to a 3 or 4 series. BMW's comparable car to the 911 is the 8 series. Porsche does not have a 3 or 4 series comp.

How about we say an equivalently equipped Porsche or BMW. So like features for all. In that case or the times I've done it, the Porsche costs significantly more (e.g $5-10K)

[RSnic]

Well last July, finally got to complete a bucket list item & dream of mine, as we picked up our M340 in Munich -- having spent 3 tours in Germany, always wanted to come back, pick up my Bimmer & get it on the Autobahn! After going through all kinds of paperwork (it is Germany, after all), we were treated royally & our customer advisor showed us around our car. We had 2 terrific weeks touring Europe in a wonderful car!

Sure wish European Delivery would be kept -- it's absolutely terrific!

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by bpu

Same here, there were deliveries like every 10 minutes on the big screens, throughout the whole day. It was packed.

They do delivery for US customers as well as EU customers at the Welt. Those other names were likely majority EU customers (which you can often tell from their accents and debadged cars). Both EDs we did, we were only 1 of 2/3 other American families there picking up their car that day.

[somberlaine]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

They do delivery for US customers as well as EU customers at the Welt. Those other names were likely majority EU customers (which you can often tell from their accents and debadged cars). Both EDs we did, we were only 1 of 2/3 other American families there picking up their car that day.

To your point. When I did ED back in June '19, the delivery guy told me there were 100 deliveries that day. Only a handful were from the US.

[somberlaine]

ED pics from last year

[paulso]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

So, let me get this straight: you're willing to pay the asking price to avoid the hassle of . . . what? Protracted negotiating?

Why not try going into a dealership and say, "I want to by that car at the price on that sticker. How long will this take?"

The answer might surprise you! I'm happy to try that experiment with you anytime.

You sound like a complete prick with an IQ that doesn't even reach room temperature. You wrote an entire novel, and lectured the whole forum about how we should all buy local, now you want to sell a car to someone in California?

We would buy local if most of you sales people wouldn't be a bunch of blood sucking vampires, who try to extort and lie your way into making a sale. Last time I checked we live in a country where we are free to pick and choose the people we do business with, believe it or not some of us have to work pretty damn hard to be able to fund some of these hobbies - I know work is a new concept for you, but you should maybe try it sometimes.

So many laughable, self absorbed, narcissistic, useless morons in this world - step down off of your high horse, you're not in the business of saving lives like you're portraying yourself.

[///M4ster Yoda]

I emailed BMW NA customer relations so I could say FU

Now I feel better

The response should be gold

[alep85]

Dumbass move by BMW on this one. Why not just offer the program, minus the specific discounts and red tape dealers have to go through?

True enthusiasts can have the experience if they want, dealers don't feel like they're "losing" in the equation, and BMW isn't losing their shirt on the program.

Every month that goes on, between the new design language and their bean counters, BMW makes keeping my E90 feel like a better and better choice.

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by paulso

You sound like a complete prick with an IQ that doesn't even reach room temperature. You wrote an entire novel, and lectured the whole forum about how we should all buy local, now you want to sell a car to someone in California?

We would buy local if most of you sales people wouldn't be a bunch of blood sucking vampires, who try to extort and lie your way into making a sale. Last time I checked we live in a country where we are free to pick and choose the people we do business with, believe it or not some of us have to work pretty damn hard to be able to fund some of these hobbies - I know work is a new concept for you, but you should maybe try it sometimes.

So many laughable, self absorbed, narcissistic, useless morons in this world - step down off of your high horse, you're not in the business of saving lives like you're portraying yourself.

And you are actually old enough to drive?

Love the generalizations but in my 40-years of selling BMWs, my first boss owned a Porsche dealership in a town Porsche told him he'd starve in. He knew better. I talked him in to taking on the BMW franchise before there was even a BMW of North America. When he offered me a job after college I told him I knew nothing about selling cars. He said that was perfect and that I obviously knew and loved cars. His best advice for dealing with customers was to always treat them the way I would want to be treated.

After 44-years and many third-generation-family customers, I've always done that. The fact that you've not found other salespersons who hold the Golden Rule in high esteem doesn't surprise me at all. I am that dinosaur.

Now, which of my 20 BMWs should I take to work tomorrow? 2-wheels, or 4? One-cylinder? Two-cylinder? Four-cylinder? Six-cylinder? Top down, or coupe? Mid-engine? Rear engine? Front engine? No 4WD or FWD for me. Several don't even have power-steering and none have electronic power-steering.

Sorry if your short attention span won't allow you to read more than a paragraph. Just put me on ignore and I'll do the same for you.

Peace.

[MR95]

Very very disappointing. Experienced an European Delivery in 2014 and it was a truly great experience. Was considering to do it again with a M2 and spend a few weeks in the Alps... but that now doesn't look possible. Have done deliveries at the center in Spartanburg and whilst good it doesn't compare and looses its novelty after a couple of deliveries. Personally I see this as another step BMW has taken to dilute its brand image.. it seems BMW's view of the joy of driving is becoming increasingly bland!!

[IllSic_Design]

Ever since I learned of ED after getting my E92 a few years back, I've dreamed of getting to do it. Looks like that won't happen now, unless they somehow can bring it back in the future. Oh well, it is what it is.

[basscadet]

No real loss here. BMW hasn't been an enthusiast brand in half a decade, it's not profitable for them.

What's profitable are SUV's and silly fake M (M340i, etc) cars leased by indiscriminate badge snobs who wouldn't know a real driving experience if it bit them on the derriere. The brand is dead with a capital D.

[tarmant]

This is extremely disappointing. My son and I have done 7 ED trips including for my M850i-x last year. We were already planing for a 2022 trip.

[Sedan_Clan]

It's interesting that a 75% drop in business resulting in a cancellation is ruled a bad decision by BMW. If anybody here was running a business and observed that significant a decline, they would make a similar decision as well. Emotions truly do obfuscate reason.