[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by NickyC

A little article on Tesla thanks to our friends at Zerohedge.

An excerpt:

"In fact, Tesla is not a Toyota in the making; it is a Wall Street scam in plain sight. It has been a public filer for seven years now, and here are the horrific figures from its financial statements.

Since 2007 it has booked cumulative sales of just $6.1 billion, and that ain’t much in autoland; it amounts to about one week of sales by Toyota and two weeks by Ford. Its cumulative bottom line has been a net loss of $1.4 billion, and the losses are not shrinking—-having totaled nearly $300 million for 2014 alone.

More significantly, during its entire seven years as a public filer, Tesla has failed to generate any net operating cash flow (OCF) at all, and has, in fact, posted red ink of $500 million on the OCF line. During the same 7-year span ending in Q4 of 2014, its CapEx amounted to a cumulative $ 1.8 billion.

So go figure. Combining OCF and CapEx you get a balance sheet hemorrhage of nearly $2.4 billion. The real question, therefore, is not why Tesla was worth $35 billion, but why it wasn’t bankrupt long ago?

The answer is that it was and should be now. Tesla would not have even made it to its Goldman-led IPO without a $500 million bailout by Uncle Sam. That the hard-pressed taxpayers of America were called upon to underwrite a vanity toy for the wealthy—–and one peddled by a serial milker of the public teat—is surely a measure of how deep crony capitalist corruption has penetrated into the business system of America.

But even these egregious windfalls do not begin to compare with the gifts showered on Elon Musk by the money printers in the Eccles building. Tesla has stayed alive only because it has been able to raise billions of convertible debt in the Wall Street casino at yields which are the next best thing to free money. In short, it has been burning massive dollops of cash for years and replenishing itself periodically in capital markets which are rife with momo speculators flying high on cheap carry trades and the Fed’s buy-the-dip safety net.

During the spring of 2014, for instance, it raised $2.3 billion of 5- and 7-year money at interest rates ranging between 25bps and 125bps. That’s right. This company is a red ink spewing rank speculation, but the money printers have enabled it to raise cash that costs virtually nothing on an after tax basis. Call it free money for the Telsa bonfire of the vanities.

True enough, these miniscule interest rates were attached to convertible bonds—-so supposedly the “upside” justified giving a proven red ink machine free money. Yes, and the strike price on those converts implied a market cap of about $50 billion!

In truth, Tesla’s true losses are even greater than its accounting statements suggests. For instance, it has booked upwards of $500 million of revenue and profits owing to ZEV (zero emissions vehicle) credits. The latter were invented by Al Gore after he finished inventing the internet, and amount to nothing more than bottled air—-clean or not.

Also, Tesla’s affluent customers pocket about $10,000 per vehicle of Federal and state tax credits, meaning that taxpayers have fronted another $500 million or so to stimulate Tesla sales."


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...nters-vanities

Ahh zerohedge, the financial "news" site who's contributor is named after a character in Fight Club. My favorite thing about that site is that when it cites a "source" it's merely a link citing itself.

While the gest of the article is true, Tesla never received bailout money, it rather received a loan from the DoE, which it paid back in full and early about a year ago. That's when the surge in stock price started happening.

Other than that, at a quick glance everything else seems fairly accurate, since most high valuations are based solely on speculation and Elon Musk is good at selling what "could be".

Doesn't really mean the company is doomed to fail though, his smarts and salesman like delivery has investors excited and willing to give him the capital he needs to limp on hoping that the company takes off. Given the largely positive reviews the Model S has received, the product is there, it's just buying enough time to expand the company's portfolio and making it profitable.

When the stock price was approaching $300/share not too long ago, Musk himself admitted on a call that the valuation was way too high given the actual health and possible projection of the company.

[ToothDoc]

To go back on topic... The acceleration is awesome and it does taper off a bit. But the truly great thing is that the whole time, you're driving in 1st gear (the only gear) and there is no transmission or turbo lag of any kind. It's like driving a NA motor in first gear all the time. The moment you even think about squirting into a spot, the car's already there. Much much much quicker throttle response than anything out there.

True, it's does taper off - but seriously, how many people drive around continuously above 100 mph? Most buyers of P85D are probably older millionaires and probably don't race around 100+.

[Vigilante375]

You have to remember that this is a single gear drive train. Once you get near the "limit", its slows. Plus AWD hurts it a bit too on top end. Oh yea, a private owner dyno'd his P85D and the torque at the rear wheels was in the 860 range in 3 back to back pulls. So its a bit underrated no?

I've never rode in one or driven one either, I would love to so I can experience the feel of it. I only wonder if it drives the same as a golf cart does. I mean, you press the "gas" pedal and when you go WOT, it just gives you full power right off the bat.

If they got rid of all the luxurious interior and made a model that was straight performance oriented, that would be awesome. Give it the same power or more like the P85D and get the weight down to under 4k lbs (over 1k lbs less), I can bet that car would be a monster.

[BMW269]

Tesla P85D maybe accelerates very fast, but the question is how many times before battery is flat?

[Efthreeoh]

So getting back off topic, which is a better topic anyway...

Regardless of the source of the financial evaluation, what is clear is Tesla is being helped financially outside of generating value from delivery of product and its stock is way over valued. It costs billions of dollars to develop a car model, even by 100-year old manufacturers with far more manufacturing experience, supply-chain economies of scale, and existing engineering tools and manufacturing infrastructure. For Tesla to add in the extra costs of maturing a alternate-fuel technology makes the task even more financially difficult. Look at BMW's i3/i8 development as an example, it has cost BMW billions and stressed the financial resources of one of the highest profit-per-unit auto manufacturers.

The Tesla S sells in the area of the market that has very low sales volume (USA) in the first place. The S-Class/A8/7-Series/Panamera all sell around 10,000 units a year in the US, which in the car business is considered low volume. All of these high-end models are financially supported by sales of hundreds of thousands of low and mid-price models, which generate the revenue for manufacturers to develop and offer $100K+ models. Tesla has no sales base of low and mid-level priced cars to support the S.

That said, I hope the company makes it and offers the Tesla 3 at the $35K -$40K price and offers 200+ mile range. AND if anyone is listening, the 3 doesn't need a 0 - 60 time of 4 seconds. If you want to buy an EV for fuel conservation, then make it that way, not to get headline for 0 -60 times.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by phantomF80

There is nothing magical about the 200+ mile range though. All they did is put a giant battery into a huge car. The car weights more than a Toyota Sienna, is wider than a Sienna, and is as long as a Panamera. When you compute the miles per kWh, its efficiency is actually quite a bit lower than i3, Leaf, and other electric cars.

Well,
First of all it almost the same.
Tesla needs about 300w to drive one mile (my personal average is 293w), which is almost the same as i3 and Leaf.
However, these cars are tiny and could barely pass as family sedans
Tesla seats 5 adults + 2 kids comfortable, while hauling their cargo.
Try that on any sedan?
Saying it's less efficient, yes it theoretically should be
Why not, right? 7 series is less efficient that 3-er as well, why stating the obvious
Yes, it's big, but that's the purpose of it, large 7-series like sedan
Though It's not heavier than any of those big luxury sedans
But it kicks Ferrari's butt on 0-100 run, and will smoke any production BMW to 100mph
It's not a bad "package" overall
What am i missing here?

[phantomF80]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Well,
First of all it almost the same.
Tesla needs about 300w to drive one mile (my personal average is 293w), which is almost the same as i3 and Leaf.
However, these cars are tiny and could barely pass as family sedans
Tesla seats 5 adults + 2 kids comfortable, while hauling their cargo.
Try that on any sedan?
Saying it's less efficient, yes it theoretically should be
Why not, right? 7 series is less efficient that 3-er as well, why stating the obvious
Yes, it's big, but that's the purpose of it, large 7-series like sedan
Though It's not heavier than any of those big luxury sedans
But it kicks Ferrari's butt on 0-100 run, and will smoke any production BMW to 100mph
It's not a bad "package" overall
What am i missing here?

My bad for not wording things correctly. Tesla Model S is a performance monster, doesn't matter which version it is. And yes, its cargo hauling capacity is awesome, and I especially love the double deck rear trunk design. Though for such a large car, its interior space is a bit lacking compared to its gas/diesel competitors (rear shoulder room is actually same as M3). The problem I have is that people get misled into thinking running a Model S would save them a ton of money compared to a comparable luxury sedan, which in reality isn't always the case. Again, I have no problem with the Model S itself, and would love to have one myself. I just don't like the way the company tricks people when it comes to cost of owning and operating the vehicle. Case in point is the way its website used to present the cost to own the vehicle. It was including time saving from using the carpool lane and going to gas station, and applying that into month payment shown on the website. Not real money in pocket for majority of the people, but it is presented as if those are the real out of pocket cost to own a Tesla Model S.

[AndreyATC]

Phantom,
I dumped my 2013 S6 for Tesla in a heartbeat
What i gained was,
1. space, and yes rear shoulder room is a lot better in Tesla
My wife can now comfortably seat in 2nd row between carseats. In S6 she was squeezed pretty bad. Not sure how is it the same is in your M3
2. Tesla is cheaper to operate, even though S6 is rated at 27mpg
Forget what you see on their website, just do your own math
My friend drives Honda Pilot and it cost him 300 lease + 500 gas = 800/mo
My other friend drives RR, forget about the cost on that one
Tesla does feel as spacious as S class or 7-series
These two will cost you more at the end of 4-5 years of ownership
Resale is another factor where electric car shines
7500 federal rebate is sweet plus zero gas brings this car to a much more comfortable place to own
Some states don't charge sales tax on Electric cars, and that's 5-10k right there
3. It drives like a dream. I never though car of this size/weight (4600lb) can be so well behaved
Low COG makes it very compliant on the road while highly potent on curves and road course
It may not do the Ring, but people are tracking them and enjoy every minute of it
4. I never have to go to gas station again
every few minutes you do it every week through the year, adds up hours of your life spent on gas stations inhaling toxic fumes.
My car does its fill ups while i'm asleep, at night
5. my car gets better everyday
OTA updates are getting installed in the car and add new features while car is parked in my garage. No need to visit dealerships
6. instant response. I mean lighting instant
There is no car that can react to throttle as fast as electricity can.
There is no downshifting. It's like driving in 2nd gear on the highway
The passing power from 50-80 is just insane. you never have to "time" your maneuver. You tap the go pedal and you are already there
Everyone already knows it's also quick from the 0
7. Convenience. Now that it's -4F outside sometimes i just turn on the heat in the car from my iPhone while it's parked outside.
I get inside with interior nice and toasty
It helps greatly when you have kids as well. My 3 boys are all under 6

I do the same in hot summer to put AC on

The list goes on

P.S. It may take a while before Tesla can reach 155mph (its speed limit) compared to other high performance cars
It really doesnt matter, cause before that happens, most cars will be looking at its tail lights, and after that it a go-to-jail speed

[phantomF80]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Phantom,
I dumped my 2013 S6 for Tesla in a heartbeat
What i gained was,
1. space, and yes rear shoulder room is a lot better in Tesla
My wife can now comfortably seat in 2nd row between carseats. In S6 she was squeezed pretty bad. Not sure how is it the same is in your M3
2. Tesla is cheaper to operate, even though S6 is rated at 27mpg
Forget what you see on their website, just do your own math
My friend drives Honda Pilot and it cost him 300 lease + 500 gas = 800/mo
My other friend drives RR, forget about the cost on that one
Tesla does feel as spacious as S class or 7-series
These two will cost you more at the end of 4-5 years of ownership
Resale is another factor where electric car shines
7500 federal rebate is sweet plus zero gas brings this car to a much more comfortable place to own
Some states don't charge sales tax on Electric cars, and that's 5-10k right there
3. It drives like a dream. I never though car of this size/weight (4600lb) can be so well behaved
Low COG makes it very compliant on the road while highly potent on curves and road course
It may not do the Ring, but people are tracking them and enjoy every minute of it
4. I never have to go to gas station again
every few minutes you do it every week through the year, adds up hours of your life spent on gas stations inhaling toxic fumes.
My car does its fill ups while i'm asleep, at night
5. my car gets better everyday
OTA updates are getting installed in the car and add new features while car is parked in my garage. No need to visit dealerships
6. instant response. I mean lighting instant
There is no car that can react to throttle as fast as electricity can.
There is no downshifting. It's like driving in 2nd gear on the highway
The passing power from 50-80 is just insane. you never have to "time" your maneuver. You tap the go pedal and you are already there
Everyone already knows it's also quick from the 0
7. Convenience. Now that it's -4F outside sometimes i just turn on the heat in the car from my iPhone while it's parked outside.
I get inside with interior nice and toasty
It helps greatly when you have kids as well. My 3 boys are all under 6

I do the same in hot summer to put AC on

The list goes on

P.S. It may take a while before Tesla can reach 155mph (its speed limit) compared to other high performance cars
It really doesnt matter, cause before that happens, most cars will be looking at its tail lights, and after that it a go-to-jail speed

Like I said, I really do like the car itself, and would like to have one. It's a great piece of engineering. I've gotten the rear shoulder measurement from Edmunds, which says the M3 rear shoulder room is 55.1" and Model S is 55.0". Looks like Edmunds got that wrong.

I did do the operating cost analysis, and that's where I feel that Model S shouldn't be advertised as a cost saving solution. Take us for example, we just got an i3, so we are in the middle of figuring this out. Currently, we are on SCE standard plan, and have been tier 4 users for a long time. That's 31 cents per kWh. For the i3, it is $5.82 per full charge. And if we were to have a Model S 60, a complete charge would cost $20.15. For a 200 mile range car, that number is not bad, but not great. And I doubt it can truly get 200 miles per charge, especially in typical So. Cal. commute. If we switch to Time-of-usage, then we can potentially benefit from the 11 cents at super off peak, but then the on peak between 2pm and 8pm can make the overall electricity bill go way up, since that's 34 cents per kWh. We have also looked at the option of getting a dedicated meter for electric car, which would allow us to charge at 11 cents all the time, but the cost of installing that is just too high. SCE requires new meter to not share any cable with the main breaker box, so it'll basically require pulling wire from the ground and open part of the wall to install the new cable. It'll be thousands of dollars, plus we'd have to coordinate with the city and the association for that type of work.

Then there is the EVSE, which still required electrician to come out and install a new 50A circuit for the i3. We are lucky that our current panel can handle the added circuit, since the city does require main panel upgrade if the panel is not sufficient. For us the total was just around $1k, including the EVSE, but the price could have been substantially more if we have an older home or a lot more high loading circuits in the house.

Again, not taking away anything from the performance aspect of the car, since it's a beast no matter what it's compared to. And the ability to never visit a gas station is just awesome. I just don't like the way Tesla is advertising the cost aspect of the car, since I don't think most people understand the true cost of running an electric car before they jump into one.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Phantom,
I dumped my 2013 S6 for Tesla in a heartbeat
What i gained was,
1. space, and yes rear shoulder room is a lot better in Tesla
My wife can now comfortably seat in 2nd row between carseats. In S6 she was squeezed pretty bad. Not sure how is it the same is in your M3
2. Tesla is cheaper to operate, even though S6 is rated at 27mpg
Forget what you see on their website, just do your own math
My friend drives Honda Pilot and it cost him 300 lease + 500 gas = 800/mo
My other friend drives RR, forget about the cost on that one
Tesla does feel as spacious as S class or 7-series
These two will cost you more at the end of 4-5 years of ownership
Resale is another factor where electric car shines
7500 federal rebate is sweet plus zero gas brings this car to a much more comfortable place to own
Some states don't charge sales tax on Electric cars, and that's 5-10k right there
3. It drives like a dream. I never though car of this size/weight (4600lb) can be so well behaved
Low COG makes it very compliant on the road while highly potent on curves and road course
It may not do the Ring, but people are tracking them and enjoy every minute of it
4. I never have to go to gas station again
every few minutes you do it every week through the year, adds up hours of your life spent on gas stations inhaling toxic fumes.
My car does its fill ups while i'm asleep, at night
5. my car gets better everyday
OTA updates are getting installed in the car and add new features while car is parked in my garage. No need to visit dealerships
6. instant response. I mean lighting instant
There is no car that can react to throttle as fast as electricity can.
There is no downshifting. It's like driving in 2nd gear on the highway
The passing power from 50-80 is just insane. you never have to "time" your maneuver. You tap the go pedal and you are already there
Everyone already knows it's also quick from the 0
7. Convenience. Now that it's -4F outside sometimes i just turn on the heat in the car from my iPhone while it's parked outside.
I get inside with interior nice and toasty
It helps greatly when you have kids as well. My 3 boys are all under 6

I do the same in hot summer to put AC on

The list goes on

P.S. It may take a while before Tesla can reach 155mph (its speed limit) compared to other high performance cars
It really doesnt matter, cause before that happens, most cars will be looking at its tail lights, and after that it a go-to-jail speed

The cost of ownership is a hard one to determine. I looked at replacing my E90 with a Tesla S, the lease expensive 60KwH version. Over a 200,000 mile life-cycle period it was still about $20K more to own than my E90 (I have real cost data for the E90), which is basically due to the Tesla's purchase cost of $70,000; you can buy a lot of gas for $30K. Life cycle cost is defined as original purchase price, loan cost, fuel cost, and maintenance/repair costs. The comparison also considered no replacement of the Tesla's battery, which is an unanswered question and my comparison also did not consider any degradation of the tesla's battery, so two unknowns that would increase the total life-cycle cost of the Tesla. The issue is however that the Tesla S is not in the same size class of the E90, so if you compare the Tesla S with cars of it's class size, which cost about the same as the Tesla (but offer far better luxury) the life cycle cost is probably comparable. But that's Tesla's problem, it can't build and sell a 3-series car with a 300 mile range at a profit. Yeah, Tesla says it's coming out with a 3-series competitor for $35K, but we'll see.

Also, Motor Trend in their New Car issue last year showed the Tesla S had a very low 2-year resale value (Intelli Choice) of around 35% IIRC, which is not very good. The $7,500 tax incentive only counts at the original purchase, which the original owner basically eats at time of resale.

Other than that, it's a very cool car and I'd get one if it was at or near the cost of ownership of a ICE-powered car. But the argument about the time wasted filling up a ICE car with gas (and breathing fumes - go live by the power plant that makes your Tesla's electricity... somebody does you know - not to mention the black lung disease coal miners get) is a bit laughable. I spend maybe 8 minutes a week filling up my E90, and I multi task by checking the tires for damage and under the hood at the same time. I've driven over a million miles (i.e. a lot of gas station time) and I'm not dead yet. LOL.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by phantomF80

Like I said, I really do like the car itself, and would like to have one. It's a great piece of engineering. I've gotten the rear shoulder measurement from Edmunds, which says the M3 rear shoulder room is 55.1" and Model S is 55.0". Looks like Edmunds got that wrong.

I did do the operating cost analysis, and that's where I feel that Model S shouldn't be advertised as a cost saving solution. Take us for example, we just got an i3, so we are in the middle of figuring this out. Currently, we are on SCE standard plan, and have been tier 4 users for a long time. That's 31 cents per kWh. For the i3, it is $5.82 per full charge. And if we were to have a Model S 60, a complete charge would cost $20.15. For a 200 mile range car, that number is not bad, but not great. And I doubt it can truly get 200 miles per charge, especially in typical So. Cal. commute. If we switch to Time-of-usage, then we can potentially benefit from the 11 cents at super off peak, but then the on peak between 2pm and 8pm can make the overall electricity bill go way up, since that's 34 cents per kWh. We have also looked at the option of getting a dedicated meter for electric car, which would allow us to charge at 11 cents all the time, but the cost of installing that is just too high. SCE requires new meter to not share any cable with the main breaker box, so it'll basically require pulling wire from the ground and open part of the wall to install the new cable. It'll be thousands of dollars, plus we'd have to coordinate with the city and the association for that type of work.

Then there is the EVSE, which still required electrician to come out and install a new 50A circuit for the i3. We are lucky that our current panel can handle the added circuit, since the city does require main panel upgrade if the panel is not sufficient. For us the total was just around $1k, including the EVSE, but the price could have been substantially more if we have an older home or a lot more high loading circuits in the house.

Again, not taking away anything from the performance aspect of the car, since it's a beast no matter what it's compared to. And the ability to never visit a gas station is just awesome. I just don't like the way Tesla is advertising the cost aspect of the car, since I don't think most people understand the true cost of running an electric car before they jump into one.

Numbers might be accurate, but once i moved carseats from one car to another, i felt the difference.
Maybe it's the bench size vs shoulder room that's larger

Though, it is a lot harder to reach passenger door handle now, it seem to be further away in this car. It is wide
Legroom is crazy. My kids can run easily between front and rear seats. There is no drive-shaft hump either.

Regarding advertising, I agree, i bit overboard
But we are all adults here, and you can do your own math

How do you like i3?

P.S. Your electric rates are insane. I pay $0.06/kw

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The cost of ownership is a hard one to determine. I looked at replacing my E90 with a Tesla S, the lease expensive 60KwH version. Over a 200,000 mile life-cycle period it was still about $20K more to own than my E90 (I have real cost data for the E90), which is basically due to the Tesla's purchase cost of $70,000; you can buy a lot of gas for $30K. Life cycle cost is defined as original purchase price, loan cost, fuel cost, and maintenance/repair costs. The comparison also considered no replacement of the Tesla's battery, which is an unanswered question and my comparison also did not consider any degradation of the tesla's battery, so two unknowns that would increase the total life-cycle cost of the Tesla. The issue is however that the Tesla S is not in the same size class of the E90, so if you compare the Tesla S with cars of it's class size, which cost about the same as the Tesla (but offer far better luxury) the life cycle cost is probably comparable. But that's Tesla's problem, it can't build and sell a 3-series car with a 300 mile range at a profit. Yeah, Tesla says it's coming out with a 3-series competitor for $35K, but we'll see.

Also, Motor Trend in their New Car issue last year showed the Tesla S had a very low 2-year resale value (Intelli Choice) of around 35% IIRC, which is not very good. The $7,500 tax incentive only counts at the original purchase, which the original owner basically eats at time of resale.

Other than that, it's a very cool car and I'd get one if it was at or near the cost of ownership of a ICE-powered car. But the argument about the time wasted filling up a ICE car with gas (and breathing fumes - go live by the power plant that makes your Tesla's electricity... somebody does you know - not to mention the black lung disease coal miners get) is a bit laughable. I spend maybe 8 minutes a week filling up my E90, and I multi task by checking the tires for damage and under the hood at the same time. I've driven over a million miles (i.e. a lot of gas station time) and I'm not dead yet. LOL.

Comparing TCO of 40-50K car to 80-100K car is tough, but It's not hard to calculate the cost
I'll use some example. And i will list most variables that affect TCO
Before i get to rough numbers, i'll say resale is amazing, despite what MT says. Look what they are selling for now. MT might have confused different versions or simply was lacking data at the time. Insurance companies had the same issues a little while ago.

1. ownership: 4-6 years
2. millage: 14-15K
3. price: 100k
4. resale price: ~50K in 4yrs, 30-35 in 6
5. Interest on the loan if financed (depends how much more $$ Tesla is) I will use cash purchase in this example
6. EV sale tax, may or may not apply based on your residence (lets leave this out for now)

Roughly:
100k - 50k is 50k of depreciation
$650/year electric usage, if you dont have solar
50K + (650*4) = 52,6K
52,6 - 7500 rebate
45100 / 48m = 940/mo

Audi S6 or BMW 550 (70-80k)
If you are lucky, you sell them for 35-40K after 4yrs
Lets take 35K as depreciation
I spent exactly 4500 on gas after year of owning S6
35K + (4500*4) = 53000K
53000 / 48m = 1100/mo
Bimmer gets free oil change, Audi or other makes dont
Add another 500 for oil changes

If i take longer period, number would be even less favorable to S6/550i

Feel free to add other variables, but they wont skew numbers as much

Warranty is similar, but drive train and battery has 8y/unlimited miles on Tesla

Efthreeoh,
8min a week = 7hrs a year you miss from your family
Some people spend even more when they wait in line, i see them daily
Some would have to drive a few miles to fill up
Not everyone lives near gas station (for me it was a 3-mile trip)
Inhaling toxic:
It may not sound so terrible for you, and i hope you are in good health
But you probably wont die from other factors that affecting your health any time soon either. People consume food that slowly killing them, but they're not dead yet. They may suffer different issues later in their life, but hey, they are alive and kicking now. Same goes for many other things.

[phantomF80]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Numbers might be accurate, but once i moved carseats from one car to another, i felt the difference.
Maybe it's the bench size vs shoulder room that's larger

Though, it is a lot harder to reach passenger door handle now, it seem to be further away in this car. It is wide
Legroom is crazy. My kids can run easily between front and rear seats. There is no drive-shaft hump either.

Regarding advertising, I agree, i bit overboard
But we are all adults here, and you can do your own math

How do you like i3?

P.S. Your electric rates are insane. I pay $0.06/kw

Wow, 6 cents per kWh? Dang, that'll make Model S a no brainer.

You make a good point, the car is actually quite wide from exterior measurement, so not sure how Edmunds reached that 55.0" shoulder room measurement. But it's good to know the data from real world experience.

We like the i3 a lot. It's my wife's primary car now, and she likes it so much that she just sold her X1. And I know what you mean about no drive shaft bump. My daughter is now able to run back and forth between the 2 rear seats, which she can't do with either M3 or the X1. It also drives fairly well, and surprisingly comfortable with those giant wheels. And the one pedal operation is awesome, and I told her that this car will prepare her for a future Tesla once the i3 lease expires

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by phantomF80

Wow, 6 cents per kWh? Dang, that'll make Model S a no brainer.

You make a good point, the car is actually quite wide from exterior measurement, so not sure how Edmunds reached that 55.0" shoulder room measurement. But it's good to know the data from real world experience.

We like the i3 a lot. It's my wife's primary car now, and she likes it so much that she just sold her X1. And I know what you mean about no drive shaft bump. My daughter is now able to run back and forth between the 2 rear seats, which she can't do with either M3 or the X1. It also drives fairly well, and surprisingly comfortable with those giant wheels. And the one pedal operation is awesome, and I told her that this car will prepare her for a future Tesla once the i3 lease expires

No brake dust huh?


I really hope they'll do mainstream version for 30-35K (after rebate)

[phantomF80]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

No brake dust huh?


I really hope they'll do mainstream version for 30-35K (after rebate)

Yeah, the wheels on the i3 are so clean compared to the M3, even after 2 weeks of having the car. I was driving the i3 so much this weekend that I had forgotten about not having regen braking in the M3. Had to quickly jump on the brake the first time I drove the M3 this weekend

And yes, I would love to see the mid $30K Tesla. Heck, I would be okay if they can drop the Model S to the mid 50's.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by phantomF80

Yeah, the wheels on the i3 are so clean compared to the M3, even after 2 weeks of having the car. I was driving the i3 so much this weekend that I had forgotten about not having regen braking in the M3. Had to quickly jump on the brake the first time I drove the M3 this weekend

And yes, I would love to see the mid $30K Tesla. Heck, I would be okay if they can drop the Model S to the mid 50's.

I'm sure S is going to be in 50s in couple of years, used

One thing to keep turbo car after 4-5 yrs and another is electric, where no engine/transmission to worry about

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Comparing TCO of 40-50K car to 80-100K car is tough, but It's not hard to calculate the cost
I'll use some example. And i will list most variables that affect TCO
Before i get to rough numbers, i'll say resale is amazing, despite what MT says. Look what they are selling for now. MT might have confused different versions or simply was lacking data at the time. Insurance companies had the same issues a little while ago.

1. ownership: 4-6 years
2. millage: 14-15K
3. price: 100k
4. resale price: ~50K in 4yrs, 30-35 in 6
5. Interest on the loan if financed (depends how much more $$ Tesla is) I will use cash purchase in this example
6. EV sale tax, may or may not apply based on your residence (lets leave this out for now)

Roughly:
100k - 50k is 50k of depreciation
$650/year electric usage, if you dont have solar
50K + (650*4) = 52,6K
52,6 - 7500 rebate
45100 / 48m = 940/mo

Audi S6 or BMW 550 (70-80k)
If you are lucky, you sell them for 35-40K after 4yrs
Lets take 35K as depreciation
I spent exactly 4500 on gas after year of owning S6
35K + (4500*4) = 53000K
53000 / 48m = 1100/mo
Bimmer gets free oil change, Audi or other makes dont
Add another 500 for oil changes

If i take longer period, number would be even less favorable to S6/550i

Feel free to add other variables, but they wont skew numbers as much

Warranty is similar, but drive train and battery has 8y/unlimited miles on Tesla

Efthreeoh,
8min a week = 7hrs a year you miss from your family
Some people spend even more when they wait in line, i see them daily
Some would have to drive a few miles to fill up
Not everyone lives near gas station (for me it was a 3-mile trip)
Inhaling toxic:
It may not sound so terrible for you, and i hope you are in good health
But you probably wont die from other factors that affecting your health any time soon either. People consume food that slowly killing them, but they're not dead yet. They may suffer different issues later in their life, but hey, they are alive and kicking now. Same goes for many other things.

Well if I had a Tesla I'd need to charge it every day, so that's 2 minutes a day for 365 days, which is 12 hours a year that I'd miss being with my family. Now, if I go buy beer in the gas station store while my car fills up without adding any time to the fill-up, do I get to deduct that from missing my family, or does it actually count towards quality time with my family since we like to drink beer together? And apparently, for the people who live near the coal powered electric plant/Nuke plant that adds power to "the grid" to juice your Tesla, what they breathe as emissions from the plant matters none to you. I guess that's acting globally but thinking locally... Dude, it's a stupid argument.

Like I said, it's tough to compare a Tesla S to anything but a car in its same price class, but if you want to drive an EV with a "per-tank" range of over 200 miles (most ICE go 400 miles), then the S is the only choice so the comparison is valid. Add to that, if you need to charge your Tesla a few times at a super charger station on trips of over 250 miles, then your time away from family argument goes out the window... The Tesla S doesn't work for everybody; it's not going to replace the ICE any time soon.

[AndreyATC]

Efthreeoh,
I'm a little confused with 2min/day
You plug in when you park at night, why is it taking you 2min daily?
Range:
My Audi S6 was barely breaking 350 miles per tank, Tesla gives me 270 highway or 350-400 city, depending on the speed
It's smaller range in some cases, but ok with me
I spend my quality time with family while my car is supercharging for free
We eat lunch, stretch, use bathroom, etc and before you realize it's done charging
It only happens on road trips, very few times a year
With 3 small kids i have to stop every 200-250 miles anyways

"it's not going to replace the ICE any time soon."
It already did
Good percent of Tesla owners are Tesla-only households

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Efthreeoh,
I'm a little confused with 2min/day
You plug in when you park at night, why is it taking you 2min daily?
Range:
My Audi S6 was barely breaking 350 miles per tank, Tesla gives me 270 highway or 350-400 city, depending on the speed
It's smaller range in some cases, but ok with me
I spend my quality time with family while my car is supercharging for free
We eat lunch, stretch, use bathroom, etc and before you realize it's done charging
It only happens on road trips, very few times a year
With 3 small kids i have to stop every 200-250 miles anyways

"it's not going to replace the ICE any time soon."
It already did
Good percent of Tesla owners are Tesla-only households

Okay, I can go with this a bit further if you'd like. 2 minutes is an approximation. You have to get out of the car, get the plug cord, plug it in and verify it's charging. The in the morning unplug, store the cord, check the charge status, and drive away. I figured that was a generous estimate of 2 minutes; of course it's all dependent upon your charge station set up. For me personally it's an additional 2 minute walk to where I'd have my car station of a Tesla from where I park my E90, so for me it's even longer. So, call it 1 minute (which I doubt) and now were down to 6 hours a year, which is an hour less than 7 hours for gas stops, so I'll call it even. Throw in 2 super charge sessions (one out and one back) and it is even. Again, this is some stupid marketing con from Elon to justify the several hours it takes to charge a non-supercharge capable S to refuel.

And the EV market is about 1% of the total auto market in the US, so yeah, taking over for ICE-powered cars by the Tesla is not going to come anytime soon.

Look, it's a cool car; I get it. I like the engineering. I've seen the naked chassis and love the design and manufacturing of it, real top-notch stuff. But the Tesla S is not cost effective and daily transportation as other cars in its size class that cost tens of thousands less and offer the same transportation attributes plus better refueling convenience. For my commute, I'd love to have one, it fits, but the total cost of ownership is just not there (for me).

I'm good, enjoy your car. I just dispute some of the things you've said. It's not a big deal.

[AndreyATC]

You make valid points here
Unfortunately we went way OT
I never insisted it was made to be economical. It's about the same as luxury mid size sedan to operate
I personally love the idea and experience that I get driving/owning the car

BTW, why did you say you need to plug in every day?
You drive a lot?

Just small clarification on this 2min charging topic
I spend exactly 5 seconds plugging the car.
Just like on this video (go to 45sec):

Video pretty much explains how most owners do it:
You park your car, the cord normally hangs on a hook right next to charging port, somewhere on the wall. You really just step out of the car, grab the port and plug it in as you walk toward the door. Simple as that
You don't take cable with you just to remove it back from the car to plug in
You only take it with you when on the trip. Most owners have 80A station that's permanently installed. So their cable is always in the car for emergency use.
Logical installation is where your charge port is as you park
My point is, you are not spending more time than you'd spend with your E90 (well, except for those 5 seconds)

P.S. It's 1% of total auto market, but not for long
It will grow rapidly as more manufacturers are building mainstream electric cars and batteries are getting cheaper and better every day
Tesla kind of started this trend and hopefully others will pick up
It's just a matter of time, trust me
Just like people went from horse and buggy to a car
It'll take time, but i hope not too long

[Vigilante375]

Ok, so what if it takes 2 minutes? How much time does it take for you to go to a gas station, probably wait for a open pump, turn off the car, pop the fuel door, get out of the car, get out your card (or go in to pay cash), take off the pump, select the grade, insert nozzle into the car, fuel.....then take out the nozzle, close the fuel door, hang up the pump, maybe get a receipt and finally back into your car to continue home.

What 10-15 minutes? But if it takes you more than a minute to get the car charging....you're doing ti wrong or have a poor setup.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

Ok, so what if it takes 2 minutes? How much time does it take for you to go to a gas station, probably wait for a open pump, turn off the car, pop the fuel door, get out of the car, get out your card (or go in to pay cash), take off the pump, select the grade, insert nozzle into the car, fuel.....then take out the nozzle, close the fuel door, hang up the pump, maybe get a receipt and finally back into your car to continue home.

What 10-15 minutes? But if it takes you more than a minute to get the car charging....you're doing ti wrong or have a poor setup.

The only point I trying to make is that it is a dumb argument to make that one of the benefits of owning a Tesla S is that you save time by not refueling at the gas station with gasoline. This argument was dreamt up to counter the inconvenience of charging the Tesla on an extended road trip (i.e. beyond its range capacity). It's not comparable. You can drive an ICE-powered auto almost anywhere in the country and refuel it for another 400 miles in less than 5 minutes; you just can't do that in a Tesla. Sure you can use the supercharger stations along various high density corridors, but you have to wait 45 minutes to get 75% range back, and that's not counting if all the charge ports are not occupied. It takes me 5 minutes to refuel my car at the gas station. I pay at the pump. I never have to wait for a pump. It’s like a super-slow motion NASCAR pit stop. So I spend 10 minutes a week at the gas station on my way home from work, BFD.

My wife complains more about the time I spend on E90 Post than refueling my car – LOL. I didn't even bring up the piece Car and Driver did about the race between a 1919 Model T and a Tesla S. The Tesla S basically achieved the same overall average speed as the Model T racing from Detroit to Long Island. So let's just deal with reality...