[gadget]

Originally Posted by sparkyg

Plenty of vocal Dinan haters.

I think the prices are fair for the seamless service and the fact that there is some research done into the actual strengths and weaknesses of the N54 engine assembly.

No limp mode either. Not a single post on that one. Not sure if the competition can say the same.

Don't have to pull the unit when you go for service, or risk breaking wire harnesses, or having your car red-flagged for no warranty due to mods on the ECU.

I will pay for simplicity and the product that works. I don't want the pain or hassle of all the bs of a piggyback or a non-warranty approved manufacturers' aftermarket parts.

I am sure many other Dinan users feel the same way.

+1

I think people here are putting very little value on the warranty. Are you guys against Dinan so broke that you'd be willing to void your warranty on a new 70k car just to save 1-2k?
Any savings you get will be negated and them some the second something goes wrong.

Yes you can get it cheaper on e-bay and have some shop install the mods. I would rather take my my M3 to the dealer, get a loaner, and come back a few days later to have a modded car with warranty and a professional installation.

Also, what about resale value

[ElCapitan]

Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger

That's exactly what they want you to think. Seriously, what's the difference between making an intercooler for a GTI and making an intercooler for a 335i? There's nothing new about intercoolers. The ones for the 335i arent made out of anything different than the one for the GTI. It doesn't take any more R&D for one than the other. So why will the 335i one cost more? Too many people believe that mods for expensive cars are justifiably more expensive than mods for less expensive ones. An intake for a 335i might be more expensive because of the need for the split at one end. Or an exhaust might be more expensive because it runs dual pipes all the way back. But these are design based, and should have nothing to do with the cost of the cars themselves. A supercharger for a 911 is expensive because how many flat-6s do you see running around? That requires serious R&D, the same would go for any high end exotic. But BMW's inline 6 is nothing new and anytime you've seen a 3 or a non V8 5 in the last 10 years, thats what you've been looking at. Twin turbos are nothing new either. There's nothing inherently difficult or challenging about it. Therefore, there's no reason for the prices to be so inflated.

You have to take into account the number of cars from a model sold. I am sure there is way more GTI made than 335i. Taking also into account that hypothetically the same proportion of owners mod their cars (while in fact more GTI mod their cars proportionally) this means the R&D (fit, no error in ECU, documented gains) is split in smaller number of buyers hence contributing to a higher pricetag. This explains why mods on Bimmers is pricier than the VW. Also, Dinan offers warranty that can cost a lot money to honor.

[TheAcAvenger]

Originally Posted by ElCapitan

You have to take into account the number of cars from a model sold. I am sure there is way more GTI made than 335i. Taking also into account that hypothetically the same proportion of owners mod their cars (while in fact more GTI mod their cars proportionally) this means the R&D (fit, no error in ECU, documented gains) is split in smaller number of buyers hence contributing to a higher pricetag. This explains why mods on Bimmers is pricier than the VW. Also, Dinan offers warranty that can cost a lot money to honor.

Actually, i'd be surprised if vw sold as many GTIs as BMW sold 335is. I guess maybe GTI will outsell by a couple thousand. But BMW will sell more 3 series than Nissan will sell Zs, and a whole lot more N54s than honda will sell S2000s. To the warranty argument, I touched on that in my earlier post. A lot of companies offer warranties without ridiculous prices. You can put a comptech supercharger on anything from a civic, to a tl, to an s2000 or even an uber rare NSX, and comptech will give you a warranty. You can go get nismo parts for your sentra, your Z or even a Skyline and they'll give you a warranty. The difference is that if you go look at their prices, they're not absolutely ridiculous like dinan's.

Here's a more proper comparison. Helix works on a very very very small number of cars. Much smaller than the market that Dinan caters too. They sell a piggyback for the 335i at $800. Dinan sells a reflash at $2000. That's $1200 per car. Now, every 15 units sold, we're talking a dinan gain of $18000 compared to Helix. $18000 is enough to cover pretty much any catastrophic engine failure that could occur from a decently tuned ecu-alteration. So to really justify the warranty argument, one in every 15 piggybacked cars would have to have $18000 in engine failure. There is NO evidence of that happening. No one's EVER seen cars fail at THAT high of a rate. THATs why I don't buy the warranty argument. If Dinan sells 500 reflashes at $2000 that's a whopping $1000000 dollars. Helix in 500 would make $400000. So we're looking at $600000 Dinan over Helix which is enough to repair 40 cars at $15000 a piece. That's 12.5% of those 500 dinan reflashes sold. If dinan causes problems with 12.5% of the cars they work on... that's not a product I want anywhere near my car.

Not intended for you ElCapitan, but on the topic of resale value, how do you call non-warranty interested people cheap, and then turn around and complain about resale value. I didn't buy the car to sell it. I've never thought about cars that way. If I had selling it in mind, I probably would have leased. It's not a house or a ferrari. Once you've modded it a little bit, your potential buyer demographic changes completely. I'm completely positive that 4-5 years from now some college kid would love to take a modified 335i off my hands and the word dinan won't mean a damn thing to him. Trade-ins with the dealer are ripoffs. The people who will appreciate "dinan" won't be buying 4 year old bmw's anyway. There's no resale advantage to it, unless you plan on not doing ANY other mods, or you know your next car will be a bmw and that your dealership will give you a good deal on your used car. None of those apply to me.

[Kyosho]

Originally Posted by BayAreaE92

I stand by the fact that if you bought a BMW I don't knwo why you decided to complain about mod prices now. If you want bang and brand name mods for a cheap price go buy an Evo, 350z, S2000, R32, etc. Dinan mods aren't expensive, ACS and Hamann mods are. My 850i is still running Dinan parts well after 100k miles with quality results...If you're curious check the garage.

a 350z and s2000 are still pretty pricey to mod

[sparkyg]

I think everyone is confusing things when it comes to price.

Great, Helix has a $800 piggyback. I think we can all agree the Dinan ECU flash does more to control the engine than any piggyback.

They are not the same.

The profit you claim is based on what? The cost to sell a product is not based on the value set by another manufacturer. How many cars has Dinan bought, how hard have they pushed them, what have they blown up pushing the car to the limit.

There are so many factors involved, you cannot compare one selling price to another and say the diff. is profit. It is totally naive.

Yes Dinan sells to a specific buyer, yes they back up their performance with a warranty, yes it cost more than everyone else.

But the price diff. is not pure profit plus we continue to see product roll out from Dinan, new intercoolers, new air intake, upgraded ECU tune.

They are creating a wide spectrum of product for a range of enthusiasts, no other single 335 tuner does it. Everyone has 1 thing, a piggyback, or an air intake, or an intercooler, or exhaust, but look at the breadth of the protential products.

Dinan is creating a 1 stop shop so the enthusiast can come to the dealership, borrow a car, come back the end of the day and have a mod done to their car.

No greasy pants, no tearing apart the car, simple as can be. Now just drive the car off the lot and hit the gas.

It is awesome. And it works.

[sdiver68]

$2000 + install to put a larger oil cooler in where one already exists? Outrageous.

$2000 for a warrantied flash? With warranty, perhaps not so overpriced.

19" forged wheel for $1275 each + install average? Outrageous

Stage 3 suspension for $2500 + install? Not horrible.

Brembo F&R for $7500 + install? Outrageous

[TheAcAvenger]

Originally Posted by sparkyg

I think everyone is confusing things when it comes to price.

Great, Helix has a $800 piggyback. I think we can all agree the Dinan ECU flash does more to control the engine than any piggyback.

They are not the same.

The profit you claim is based on what? The cost to sell a product is not based on the value set by another manufacturer. How many cars has Dinan bought, how hard have they pushed them, what have they blown up pushing the car to the limit.

There are so many factors involved, you cannot compare one selling price to another and say the diff. is profit. It is totally naive.

Yes Dinan sells to a specific buyer, yes they back up their performance with a warranty, yes it cost more than everyone else.

But the price diff. is not pure profit plus we continue to see product roll out from Dinan, new intercoolers, new air intake, upgraded ECU tune.

They are creating a wide spectrum of product for a range of enthusiasts, no other single 335 tuner does it. Everyone has 1 thing, a piggyback, or an air intake, or an intercooler, or exhaust, but look at the breadth of the protential products.

Dinan is creating a 1 stop shop so the enthusiast can come to the dealership, borrow a car, come back the end of the day and have a mod done to their car.

No greasy pants, no tearing apart the car, simple as can be. Now just drive the car off the lot and hit the gas.

It is awesome. And it works.

You said "How many cars has Dinan bought, how hard have they pushed them, what have they blown up pushing the car to the limit." That's been debated countless times. The answer is that no one really knows. With Vishnu we saw swarms of people across the country on different cars in different regions under different conditions being used as guinea pigs. The result is a lot of fast cars without any major problems. Without any data logs, any knowledge whatsoever about what Dinan did to test their tune, how can we claim that they put so much R&D into it. Tunes aren't bolt-ons. Sometimes it can be more important to test a tune 50 times on 200 cars, than 200 times on 5 cars. Not too mention, I think the problem with the dinan flash isn't so much as price, it's the amount of power you get for that price. It's not like V2 is inexpensive.

You said "plus we continue to see product roll out from dinan, new intercoolers, nwe air intake, upgraded ECU tune." When has lack of specialization ever led to better quality. Do you buy your shoes at wal-mart because you can your lettuce from there too? New intercoolers? Oh you mean the spearco core that they just bought the rights too? You mean they bought the design from a company thats notorious for making intercoolers? That makes sense for a reason. Spearco makes some of the best intercoolers because they invest all of their resources into making intercoolers. UR makes downpipes, exhaust, and intakes because they seem to have an solid grasp of optimizing air flow in and out of an engine. Would I go buy a tune from them? No. Because that's not their niche. If you want one company to do everything and to be satisfied with it.. you should have bought an M3. The purpose of aftermarket is to buy parts that suit your wants and needs. These products usually come from companies that do nothing but spend their time designing the parts that they're good at designing.

You said "Dinan is creating a 1 stop shop so the enthusiast can come to the dealership, borrow a car, come back the end of the day and have a mod done to their car.

No greasy pants, no tearing apart the car, simple as can be. Now just drive the car off the lot and hit the gas."

Frankly, I think that exemplifies how are arguments differ. I dont define "no greasy pants, no tearing apart the car, simple as can be as what aftermarket is about. If I did, really, I would get an M3. You can go to the dealership, give a car that M already modded completely, and drive off the lot. But you ask why people on e90post.com don't buy into Dinan? It's because the majority of people on e90post spend ridiculous amounts of time thinking about and talking about their car. They dont mind greasy pants if it means a few extra ponies. They don't like going to the dealership for any reason besides inspection and that free oil change. They like to be able to follow the design and effort of what they're putting into their car. For Vishnu fans, that means being a part of the guinea pig experience and data logging so you can be a part of not only your car's improvement, but the improvement of others' cars as well. For track junkies and the suspension obsessed, that means keeping various koni knobs in your glovebox because you never really know when you'll be in the mood for a change. Basically, it means not handing over your car and getting it back "improved." To some of us, that defeats the whole purpose of modifications. It's just too impersonal. If everyone just took their car to the dealer and threw dinan parts on it, e90post wouldn't exist.

[sparkyg]

I think some people on e90post spend a ridiculous amount of time b*tching.

I agree that we all see things differently and what I view as value for dollar others view as outrageous prices.

I will say that there was a time when I loved being under my car for days on end and I did. Thats what my 20's were for.

In my old age, late 30's I no longer desire to tinker with sh*t that may or may not work, that may damage my car and or that I may or may not get the results I want.

To each his/her own on this topic. There are no winners, we all love to drive our cars.

[Chowbow]

If they price things high and people are buying, then they're not pricing themselves out of reach. It's expensive, so don't buy it if you think it isn't worth it. What surprises me is how some members find that a $2k flash is ridiculously expensive but have $300 carbon fiber mirror covers and $150 light bulbs for angel eyes.

[TheAcAvenger]

Originally Posted by sparkyg

I think some people on e90post spend a ridiculous amount of time b*tching.

I agree that we all see things differently and what I view as value for dollar others view as outrageous prices.

I will say that there was a time when I loved being under my car for days on end and I did. Thats what my 20's were for.

In my old age, late 30's I no longer desire to tinker with sh*t that may or may not work, that may damage my car and or that I may or may not get the results I want.

To each his/her own on this topic. There are no winners, we all love to drive our cars.

I certainly can't argue with you there. I don't really find the reflash price to be all that outrageous. I do however have serious issues with the $2k oil cooler. At the end of the day, all we want to do is go faster. Some of us will pay more for the extra peace of mind, some of us won't. But no matter what you do, people on e90post will always bitch. What else is there to do around here?

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by sparkyg

I think some people on e90post spend a ridiculous amount of time b*tching.

I agree that we all see things differently and what I view as value for dollar others view as outrageous prices.

I will say that there was a time when I loved being under my car for days on end and I did. Thats what my 20's were for.

In my old age, late 30's I no longer desire to tinker with sh*t that may or may not work, that may damage my car and or that I may or may not get the results I want.

To each his/her own on this topic. There are no winners, we all love to drive our cars.

I understand what you are saying but the 335i guys are getting GOUGED!

I am proud of my Dinan 3.91 differential....sure, they are using BMW motorsports gears but you get 8% increase in torque across the whole rev range.....$2700 (warranty included). 8% is hard to get in an M car.

The M5 / M6 software, increases the rev limiter, removes top speed and improves throttle response, no power increase....$1000, I will pay this all day as the SW is useful. I love Dinan for M cars.


Fast forward to the 335i. $2000 for a hunk of software. $2000 for an oil cooler with some plastic. I hate Dinan for the 335i.

[sparkyg]

I can understand your point TBone. I never knew you got such a good deal. They (Dinan) priced your mod actually very competitively.

I do think that Dinan is using the 335i platform to perhaps "grow" the business to new booking levels, hence profits.

Maybe BMW wants more cut, hence the higher prices. Given the fact that US prices are so low in the US maybe BMWNA wants to make some $$ back through the tuner tier.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by Chowbow

If they price things high and people are buying, then they're not pricing themselves out of reach. It's expensive, so don't buy it if you think it isn't worth it. What surprises me is how some members find that a $2k flash is ridiculously expensive but have $300 carbon fiber mirror covers and $150 light bulbs for angel eyes.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[sparkyg]

+1 to that

[uberschnell]

I think the prices are fair for the seamless service and the fact that there is some research done into the actual strengths and weaknesses of the N54 engine assembly

Well, soon enough you will be able to put a price to that "seamless service". Before Dinan bought out the Spearco inter-cooler it could be found for $1200 on-line. We'll see how much placing the Dinan label can add to a products price.

What's funny is that aside from the flash, for which a decent argument can be made for warranty and uniqueness, most items for the 335 are re-branded products, with a healthy mark-up. Nothing super unique or in desperate need of warranty (how many of you are worried about losing your warranty because of aftermarket wheels?)

I'm not knocking the quality of Dinan's products. Actually, what impresses me is the fact that this company can sell someone a set of mufflers for $1800 and have that person walk away so convinced that they got a good deal that they'll work endlessly to prove that the rest of us a just "suckers" for not doing the same.

[SpecC]

I am certain that Dinan products for BMWS are top notch in quality and in fitment. I am just not sure why they must charge so much! I know they're great and all, but damn, you might as well get the next BMW model if you're going to buy Dinan products

[AJayE92]

Originally Posted by Aija

i thought the partnership broke and BMW has their own performance thing now?

just what ive been hearing...

true


BMW is dropping DINAN all over like pigeons on Laxatives

[jaiman]

Originally Posted by T Bone

I understand what you are saying but the 335i guys are getting GOUGED!

I am proud of my Dinan 3.91 differential....sure, they are using BMW motorsports gears but you get 8% increase in torque across the whole rev range.....$2700 (warranty included). 8% is hard to get in an M car.

The M5 / M6 software, increases the rev limiter, removes top speed and improves throttle response, no power increase....$1000, I will pay this all day as the SW is useful. I love Dinan for M cars.


Fast forward to the 335i. $2000 for a hunk of software. $2000 for an oil cooler with some plastic. I hate Dinan for the 335i.

The diff is definitely a good deal. What do they charge for the installation? Is there anywhere that shows performance comparions before and after?

As for the flash, its pricey, but if I had a 335, its the way I'd go. I'd rather not spend time arguing with a dealer about whether the ECU tune I got is the cause of some failure in the car.

A bit off topic, T Bone, do you know if Canadian dealers are having as much trouble moving the M5/M6 as US dealers?

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by jaiman

The diff is definitely a good deal. What do they charge for the installation? Is there anywhere that shows performance comparions before and after?

As for the flash, its pricey, but if I had a 335, its the way I'd go. I'd rather not spend time arguing with a dealer about whether the ECU tune I got is the cause of some failure in the car.

A bit off topic, T Bone, do you know if Canadian dealers are having as much trouble moving the M5/M6 as US dealers?

3 hours for install....

I don't know about slow sales in the US, people seem to be picking them up all the time. In Kanada, M sales are always slow in the winter....

Are you looking for one?

[jaiman]

I'm leaning much more to the M3, but I have a feeling that an 08 M5 will have lease payments that are equal to, or very slightly more than an 09 M3. if thats the case then I'm definitely interested.

[cycler]

Business is business. Dinan partnered up with BMW to make a product with a warranty. Do I think overpriced. Sure it is. Its a few min's worth of work but do I think its worth it for the warranty. Of course it is. Bottom line if you dont care about a warranty spend 1300 on a procede and if you want the warranty spend a total of about 2100 on dinan. If you can affored 2-5K wheels, 500 for front spoilers, 2100 for coilovers, etc etc then you can afford 2K for a dinan upgrade. Lets not hate dinan cause they are out there to make money. All you guys out there spent a minimum of 42K on your 335's so 2K isnt gonna hurt you. And if thats to much then dont go out on the town every weekend . Go out every other weekend.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by AJayE92

true


BMW is dropping DINAN all over like pigeons on Laxatives

You are wrong.