[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

It is interesting to see that Porsche still does their exclusive sports cars amongst the mainstream yet BMW does not? Then what is the M2 or even the M4 GTS?

Scott

I own 5 BMWs now: 01 330Ci (in Europe), 01 330Ci, 01 E46 M3, 12 X5 35i, 13 E92 M ZCP

The M division continues to function. M annoyed me with the switch the turbo engines but I recognize that is inevitable with the amount of emissions/consumption scrutiny of modern cars.
BMW pulled an Apple, who swore by their old IBM processors saying they were much better than x86 ones, then from one day to another switched to the regular x86 processors and proclaimed the new ones were several times faster than the old.
People who have functioning brain cells immediately caught that it was impossible for IBMPower to be 3x faster than Intel, then for Intel to switch to being 4x faster than IBMPower.
In much the same way, you cannot talk about the advantages of high revving engines and individual butterflies for twenty years and then move to an all turbo lineup and call it better than the old.

The M5 and X5 M continue to be benchmarks in their segments. The F8X M also is, as it still wins comparisons. I'm sure the ZCP will fix the small issues it has.

To sum up, the M2 and GTS are nice to have around. However, this is not enough.
BMW was what Porsche is now, in other words, all BMW cars used to drive well. This is absolutely no longer the case.
Porsche gets the piece of junk platform of the Q5/Tiguan and makes the Macan, a great driving little SUV. I hope BMW's X4 'M' drives well, but even if it does, it will be the single 'good' X3/X4 car to drive. Every single Macan drives well.

The m235 is a step in the right direction, but do you understand that before all BMWs drove like that? The regular 3/5/7 series are the laughing stock of the automotive press, it is just humiliating as a BMW owner who believes in 'the ultimate driving machine'.
There is zero reason for a BMW to now drive like a floaty barge when all your competitors -even ones based on FWD piece of crap platforms- drive like BMW was supposed to drive.

For you to point out that there are still 5 BMWs you can buy which resemble ultimate driving machines is of little consolation. Before every single model was pleasant to drive.

[shanecarmaster1]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

For you to point out that there are still 5 BMWs you can buy which resemble ultimate driving machines is of little consolation. Before every single model was pleasant to drive.

THANK YOU so much - this is the exact thing I've been saying for years. For a new BMW to drive its best (which is still not saying much), you have to get all sorts of fancy packages and options, whereas before, they just came that way. That WAS the car.

I'm glad that Scott can take all our valid points and only combat it with how there's a least two or three good cars to drive from BMW now. No speak about its other completely true failures. I DARE you to find a single old school BMW that was a disappointment or that drove poorly. I dare you.

Oh, just for nostalgia-sake. This is my beloved e38.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by shanecarmaster1

THANK YOU so much - this is the exact thing I've been saying for years. For a new BMW to drive its best (which is still not saying much), you have to get all sorts of fancy packages and options, whereas before, they just came that way. That WAS the car.

Exactly - each and every car had similar feel and handling characteristics. Anyone driving one had a reasonable expectation of what to expect when driving one because there were common brand components...hard to say that's the case now...

EDIT - the proof is in the pudding, at least in my experience. I know 4 other people who have traded in Bimmers for a Porsche in the last 6 months: (7 series --> Panamara, 135 --> 997 CS, F30 335 --> 997 Turbo) or Audi (X5 --> Q5 S). Now that's just my experience, but it is sort of telling. Many different types of models represented in that small sample size, and the common denominator is the movement away from BMW.

All types of family situations, both male and female. What do they all share? Passion for driving...

[r3dbimmer89]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

It is interesting to see that Porsche still does their exclusive sports cars amongst the mainstream yet BMW does not? Then what is the M2 or even the M4 GTS?

Not to join the party and continue the bash but the point that most people here are trying to make is that yes Porsche offers "halo" cars along side its mainstream cars but the fact is that Porsche's DNA is in its mainstream cars. No matter if you buy a base Panamera or a base diesel Cayenne, it still drives like a Porsche.

Most here understand the basic concept of growth and we understand that BMW needs to grow to stay afloat. We as long term BMW customers are just disappointed that we "have" to buy an M4 GTS to somewhat get a car that "feels" like what a BMW should feel like. Why can't a base 320i still be fun to drive? I agree with others here, a base non sport W205 C Class drives better than a base non sport F30 320i.

[shanecarmaster1]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Exactly - each and every car had similar feel and handling characteristics. Anyone driving one had a reasonable expectation of what to expect when driving one because there were common brand components...hard to say that's the case now...

EDIT - the proof is in the pudding, at least in my experience. I know 4 other people who have traded in Bimmers for a Porsche in the last 6 months: (7 series --> Panamara, 135 --> 997 CS, F30 335 --> 997 Turbo) or Audi (X5 --> Q5 S). Now that's just my experience, but it is sort of telling. Many different types of models represented in that small sample size, and the common denominator is the movement away from BMW.

All types of family situations, both male and female. What do they all share? Passion for driving...

Just to add: if anything besides what we've already mentioned, the cars don't invoke any loyalty. For instance, my father and I both have new 7's, but for our next cars, we haven't even mentioned getting another 7. It's so boring on so many levels. Then the "new" one came out recently and it still wasn't alluring. They make each vehicle too predictable and stagnant. Even though the Panamera has been around for a million years at this point, I'd still love to rock a Panamera Turbo without hesitation. I can't really describe it, but even though the current 5 series has only been around for 4 years, the 6 series for less time, the 3 series for 3 years, and the new X5/X6/X4 basically just debuted, it feels as though they've been around for decades. Rewind back and it felt like each cycle was done pretty quickly. I try to get excited for a new model and it ends up being a regurgitation of the rest of the lineup.

I'll go over to my local anything-else dealership and get something new and exciting. Hell, even the Cadillac CTS-V looks killer and drives amazingly as well. Meanwhile the M5 is a big grand-tourer that can't even put the power down.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89

We as long term BMW customers are just disappointed that we "have" to buy an M4 GTS to somewhat get a car that "feels" like what a BMW should feel like. Why can't a base 320i still be fun to drive? I agree with others here, a base non sport W205 C Class drives better than a base non sport F30 320i.

I kind of agree, I mean, none of the compact or mid-size bavarian executive sports saloons, tourers or coupes, be it manual or auto, petrol or diesel, that I've ever driven felt like hardcore, roll-caged, be-winged track focused monsters... and I'm pretty sure that goes for 95%+ of all other BMW drivers out there. So I wonder where you're getting you idea of what a BMW should feel like from, because it probably isn't from the vastest majority of cars that BMW has sold over the past 99 years?

[r3dbimmer89]

Originally Posted by Matski

I kind of agree, I mean, none of the compact or mid-size bavarian executive sports saloons, tourers or coupes, be it manual or auto, petrol or diesel, that I've ever driven felt like hardcore, roll-caged, be-winged track focused monsters... and I'm pretty sure that goes for 95%+ of all other BMW drivers out there. So I wonder where you're getting you idea of what a BMW should feel like from, because it probably isn't from the vastest majority of cars that BMW has sold over the past 99 years?

When I say what a BMW "feels" like, I mean a "relatively" fun car to drive. Not sure if you've driven BMWs from the 80s and 90s but I've driven all 3 series and 5 series from the E30/E34 up to the present F30/F10. Every generation had a connection to the road, although, I am not saying that they were track monsters. It was a certain feel that the current generation lacks. The F30 is not really all that more comfortable so I can't really say they sacrificed handling for comfort. A base W205 chassis is more comfortable but handles better. Go figure...

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Matski

I kind of agree, I mean, none of the compact or mid-size bavarian executive sports saloons, tourers or coupes, be it manual or auto, petrol or diesel, that I've ever driven felt like hardcore, roll-caged, be-winged track focused monsters... and I'm pretty sure that goes for 95%+ of all other BMW drivers out there. So I wonder where you're getting you idea of what a BMW should feel like from, because it probably isn't from the vastest majority of cars that BMW has sold over the past 99 years?

Read the C&D article where they put the F30 and an E90 on a kinematics and compliance machine in order to try to figure out what the heck was wrong with the F30. Especially note the steering wheel torque versus lateral load curve. Stuff like that answers exactly what r3dbimmer89 is referring to about the most recent edition BMWs.

I've been a BMW enthusiast since 1971, and back in the late 70s/early 80s built my 1972 Bavaria (E3) into a really sweet trackable beast; even with its recirculating ball steering, the feedback from the front contact patches at/near/over the limits of adhesion was excellent (this was a system designed in the late 60s, but the basics of it prevailed for many years to come as my E39 M5 has a recirculating ball setup too).

The new BMW EPS systems are almost completely numb in the same situation -- the varying torque feedback you're used to around and past the peak of the tractive force curve is essentially absent. Couple that with the flattened wheel torque vs building lateral load curve, and you're left with a neutered "BMW".

Now add in how BMW designed the F30 rear suspension to toe in more (than the E90) under compression, which results in adding understeer as cornering loads go up, and you get a chassis that essentially is unlike (i.e. more Lexus-like) anything BMW has produced to date.

The point of all of this is that, as a corporation, BMW is being run on the modern "MBA-think" mantra of value extraction from the marketplace as opposed to value creation which is what drove them from the early 70s through the last E chassis designs. They are doing the best job possible at extracting the maximum value built up through many decades of increasing customer good will. The reward structure ensures such executive behavior.

Hence these "modern" versions of a BMW are what we are left with -- value extraction focused cars with neutered souls. In the meantime, the build-it-and-they-will come customers show up while the core of BMW's success is leaving en masse.

[Lucky13]

Originally Posted by shanecarmaster1

Just to add: if anything besides what we've already mentioned, the cars don't invoke any loyalty. For instance, my father and I both have new 7's, but for our next cars, we haven't even mentioned getting another 7. It's so boring on so many levels. Then the "new" one came out recently and it still wasn't alluring. They make each vehicle too predictable and stagnant. Even though the Panamera has been around for a million years at this point, I'd still love to rock a Panamera Turbo without hesitation. I can't really describe it, but even though the current 5 series has only been around for 4 years, the 6 series for less time, the 3 series for 3 years, and the new X5/X6/X4 basically just debuted, it feels as though they've been around for decades. Rewind back and it felt like each cycle was done pretty quickly. I try to get excited for a new model and it ends up being a regurgitation of the rest of the lineup.

I'll go over to my local anything-else dealership and get something new and exciting. Hell, even the Cadillac CTS-V looks killer and drives amazingly as well. Meanwhile the M5 is a big grand-tourer that can't even put the power down.

For somebody that knows so much about BMW you really are inaccurate. The current 5 series is 6 years old (2011,12,13,14,15,16) and the current 3 series is 5 years old.

Caidillac CTS is down over 40% in sales for 2015 and 50% in November. When they raised the price of CTS they killed it two years ago. You could put 1,000 hp in it and no one will buy a Cadillac car in the US, even the ATS is down 15% ytd. Say what you want just get some facts to support it.

[shanecarmaster1]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

For somebody that knows so much about BMW you really are inaccurate. The current 5 series is 6 years old (2011,12,13,14,15,16) and the current 3 series is 5 years old. Do you really own a 7 series since the other info is way off? Caidillac CTS is down over 40% in sales for 2015 and 50% in November so obviously no one gives a shit, the CTS is dead and looks like crap. When they raised the price of CTS they killed it two years ago. You could put 1,000 hp in it and no one will buy a Cadillac car in the US, even the ATS is down 15% ytd. Say what you want just get some facts to support it.

Whether you slice it 2015-2011 or 11,12,13,14,15, the 5 series is basically still mid cycle. The 3 series is even younger having just received an LCI. The LCI should really make the cars hit their stride and perfect them, but these cars have just overstayed their welcome already.

That aside, I bought my F02 brand new off the lot, loaded with options exactly how I wanted it, as I do with all my cars except my E38. I mention what I own because I feel that it gives me a bit more room to talk as an owner of multiple generations and of the newer cars. I feel that many enthusiasts drive the older "better" car and simply bash anything new based off of articles and forum posts. They wouldn't be incorrect, but I'm basing my opinions on experience: I've driven many cars of multiple generations and still conclude the same feelings.

Also, sales numbers, whether yours are correct or not, have no relevance to my argument because I'm simply comparing how much better those cars are to drive. They really are. I'm not going to fight with you about looks because I think that the new CTS looks dynamite, but I won't waste my breathe.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

...the current 3 series is 5 years old.

Four. Started production in late 2011.

Originally Posted by shanecarmaster1

Whether you slice it 2015-2011 or 11,12,13,14,15, the 5 series is basically still mid cycle.

Even the most liberal definition of "mid" couldn't save this statement from being completely false.

The F10/F11 5 Series is in its final year of production. It will be ending in October of next year, just ten months from now, and the G30 will take over from there.

Originally Posted by shanecarmaster1

Also, sales numbers, whether yours are correct or not, have no relevance to my argument because I'm simply comparing how much better those cars are to drive.

For the sake of argument, we'll go with that claim.

Yet, still, if those products aren't selling then those aren't the right products for BMW because those aren't the products people want. If BMW had sales numbers like Cadillac, we would likely be discussing their demise right now because, without the huge corporate machine Cadillac has in GM to subsidize them, they'd also be dead.

The cars BMW built yesterday were that way because that's what people wanted at that time. Today's customer is different. Change happens.

[Lucky13]

3 series is in its 5th model year, new body was 2012, 13, 14, 15 and 2016's are being driven and 2017 will be year 6. Forget calendar I'm talking model years and when someone says year 3 or 4 both are wrong. Same was true for 5 series as relates to model year and it's in year 6 of 6, 11,12,13,14,15,16 and 2017 model is a new body. 6 year model runs, forget calendar year, timing is all over the place on when models get introduced during the year.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

3 series is in its 5th model year, new body was 2012, 13, 14, 15 and 2016's are being driven and 2017 will be year 6. Forget calendar I'm talking model years and when someone says year 3 or 4 both are wrong. Same was true for 5 series as relates to model year and it's in year 6 of 6, 11,12,13,14,15,16 and 2017 model is a new body. 6 year model runs, forget calendar year, timing is all over the place on when models get introduced during the year.

"In its 5th model year" means 4 years old. Just like when you have a newborn kid, he's 0 years old, but is in the first year of his life.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

Forget calendar I'm talking model years...

I would say it's important to be specific about that then, especially when you lead off by calling out someone else for being inaccurate. Keep in mind that, when someone just says "years" with no other qualifier, they typically mean the dictionary definition of that word. I would definitely conclude from context that the gentleman you replied to meant that, for example. After all, when speaking in terms of the "freshness" of a vehicle, it's actual time on the market is what's important.

timing is all over the place on when models get introduced during the year.

Right, and this is exactly why knowing the production-start/release date is critical to calculating a product's age.

...when someone says year 3 or 4 both are wrong.

That's certainly not true for the 3 series which is just coming up on four years old now, as I said above.

6 year model runs

Actually, BMW follows a seven year product life cycle, with very rare exceptions. Traditionally, this has also mapped to a seven model-year run in North American terms as well, though more recently there have been exceptions there too, such as the E90 3 series. The F10 5 Series will also be another exception, and we'll what happens with the F30.

[Traveler_M5]

ynguldyn / All

Im planning on ordering a F26 X4 M40 for the wife, however according to this post the F26 will end production in 2018?

This would make sense, so that BMW can line up the G01 X3 / G02 X4 launch in 2017/2018 sine they would share the same chassis.

Can someone confirm, I certainly wont order the F26 X4 M40 for the wife if this is the case.

Danke

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Traveler_M5

ynguldyn / All

Im planning on ordering a F26 X4 M40 for the wife, however according to this post the F26 will end production in 2018?

This would make sense, so that BMW can line up the G01 X3 / G02 X4 launch in 2017/2018 sine they would share the same chassis.

Can someone confirm, I certainly wont order the F26 X4 M40 for the wife if this is the case.

Danke

The next generation X4 will be released in 2018. But will not arrive on The market to nearly the years end. So you have time to enjoy the X4 M40i as it is excellent.

[BimmerMat135]

Which MY 328d F3X will have the B47? Are we expecting same specs 187hp/295ft-lbs?

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by BimmerMat135

Which MY 328d F3X will have the B47? Are we expecting same specs 187hp/295ft-lbs?

No B47 in the U.S. until G01 and G20.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Bosozoku

The good news: CarPlay will be available soon.
The bad news (for me, anyway): CarPlay may not be available in the '16 M2.

Not going to wait for CarPlay if it's not available in the first year of M2 production.
Even though I'm a Rabid Apple Fanboi (tm).

Did this ever show up or is it still on the horizon?

[ynguldyn]

Small update in the top post to close up the year.

[phoenixbmwlife]

M2 LCI in 2017 same as F80. ?

[Diver]

Fun reading about an M2 LCI when the car isn't even out yet.