[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

This would be funny if the trend of E chassis BMW's winning comparison tests wasn't inverted by F chassis cars universally losing them. Hopefully the G's are a return to form.

I think the G will, I think the F was done in a.. hmm lets do something to stay in the market but lets focus more on the G and carbon fiber era.

Hopefully, time will tell with the up coming 7 series

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The more things change.
Everything remains the same...

95% of BMW buyers don't even know what carbon fiber is nor care about it either. I get BMW has made strides in mass production of carbon fiber, but I think there is a limit to how far the production cost can be reduced while maintaining the true advantages of CF. It will be interesting to see if CF gets down to the 1 and 2 series price point (those FWD chassis configuration cars BMW just figured out - 50 years too late - provide for more interior space ). And if CF gets to the 3, I'm interested in how far the base price will be north of $50K.

[buildbright]

It's funny how the ATS is faster from 0 but from a roll or passing speeds slower. In my mind those numbers are more important. The trap speed seems odd as does the 0-150. I think the correction factor is off or they switched numbers of the C63s.

[SCOTT26]

The M3 was the winner in the end was it not?

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The M3 was the winner in the end was it not?

Means nothing. The only winner at the end is the company that gets money from the buyer, in this case BMW. But that does not mean the buyer bought what is objectively better.

[swanson]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The M3 was the winner in the end was it not?

I dont know if losing in all the categories it used to dominate is winning, but I guess you need something to make you feel better.

[David70]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The M3 was the winner in the end was it not?

The BMW did score higher than the ATS-V, 207 to 201. Considering how close and my opinions not always matching someone else's it was close enough that I would make my own decision between the two and give them both a chance.

For example, the Rear Seat Space, Rear Seat Comfort, and Trunk Space all pushed the BMW up 5 points so if these aren't things I care about maybe the scoring for me is close to even. BMW powertrain scored higher (5 higher), ATS-V chassis scored higher (7 higher), I am not sure which is more important.

[Lucky13]

Here's why the ATS is a loser, the local Cadillac dealer was running full page print ads last week end with $6,000 off on any ATS. Cadillac doesn't get the premium market and they are doomed to fail. Trying to sell a premium brand like its a Chevy is why no one will ever give a shit about buying a Caddy.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by David70

The BMW did score higher than the ATS-V, 207 to 201. Considering how close and my opinions not always matching someone else's it was close enough that I would make my own decision between the two and give them both a chance.

For example, the Rear Seat Space, Rear Seat Comfort, and Trunk Space all pushed the BMW up 5 points so if these aren't things I care about maybe the scoring for me is close to even. BMW powertrain scored higher (5 higher), ATS-V chassis scored higher (7 higher), I am not sure which is more important.

Everyone is going to have their preference, and that's fair but at the end of the day, BMW is and has always been known for the sum of its parts. Everyone has asked why other parts outside of chassis, drivetrain and engine are suddenly important when comparing to BMW. These factors always mattered but no one else was doing anything different during the years of the E46 and E90. You may prefer an A4 or C-Class over the 3-Series no one in this class had anything to write home about. Now with this generation of cars, the landscape is totally different and now are focusing on other areas of a car (see: Mercedes C-Class).

If you're looking for that E46-type car, great perhaps the ATS is for you but Cadillac is chasing a two-generation old car which is fine but the rest of the segment has moved on. Yes, the 3-Series doesn't have the feel of a E46 or even an E90 dynamically, but if you're talking about the car as a whole, it's unquestionably an improvement over the E46 and E90.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

Here's why the ATS is a loser, the local Cadillac dealer was running full page print ads last week end with $6,000 off on any ATS. Cadillac doesn't get the premium market and they are doomed to fail. Trying to sell a premium brand like its a Chevy is why no one will ever give a shit about buying a Caddy.

It might be bad for Cadillac as a whole but as an individual I don't care. If I find out I can get a big discount on an ATS which compares very closely to a similar BMW I would at least go drive it. Also, three pages into this topic and these posts in a BMW forum means some must care.

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

Everyone is going to have their preference, and that's fair but at the end of the day, BMW is and has always been known for the sum of its parts. Everyone has asked why other parts outside of chassis, drivetrain and engine are suddenly important when comparing to BMW. These factors always mattered but no one else was doing anything different during the years of the E46 and E90. You may prefer an A4 or C-Class over the 3-Series no one in this class had anything to write home about. Now with this generation of cars, the landscape is totally different and now are focusing on other areas of a car (see: Mercedes C-Class).

If you're looking for that E46-type car, great perhaps the ATS is for you but Cadillac is chasing a two-generation old car which is fine but the rest of the segment has moved on. Yes, the 3-Series doesn't have the feel of a E46 or even an E90 dynamically, but if you're talking about the car as a whole, it's unquestionably an improvement over the E46 and E90.

I believe you are only basing this on what you have read? I just said if I was buying a car in this segment I would drive the competitors. I am interested in buying the best car for the money and what I like or care the most about may not match you or a car magazines.

It used to be that the M3 was well above in chassis/driving performance so there was no competition on those points and yes the driving dynamics of the E46 interest me, I drive a similar Z4M as my weekend car.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

Here's why the ATS is a loser, the local Cadillac dealer was running full page print ads last week end with $6,000 off on any ATS. Cadillac doesn't get the premium market and they are doomed to fail. Trying to sell a premium brand like its a Chevy is why no one will ever give a shit about buying a Caddy.

Was that a local dealer ad or a part of a national campaign?

You know damn well that dealers are independent from the manufacture. If I saw a BMW dealer offering $10,000 off the 3 series, can I take a broad brush and say BMW doesn't get the premium market?

Don't get me wrong though, Cadillac dealers are a huge part of the problem. From horrible service, selling the deal instead of the car, displaying the wrong cars out front( ie: cars with vinyl tops), etc. But a local dealer offering $6000 off the ATS does not represent Cadillac getting the premium market or not.

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

The article aptly states that the Caddy looks ugly and is not ergonomic and pleasing interior wise, but most troublesome is when it is being proclaimed by C&D and other publications that Caddy is thus far the top dog in the chassis and handling department. Even the engine is being hailed as N/A like. If BMW isn't troubled by such statements that would have been unfathomable 5 years ago, then they should be. I really hope things change.

Unfortunately it would be more like 10 years ago. 2009 was when I started noticing a change in BMW's products with the introduction of the F01 and E89 (neither of which were as good to drive as their predecessors) as well as their overall focus as a brand.

I have been saying all of this for the past couple years. Really glad others are starting to notice this as well.

[Lucky13]

The ATS-V sales numbers will be tiny because the ATS and CTS sales are in the toilet. CTS which is what one year old is down 39% thru June, the ATS is down 16% thru June in the best car market in about 8 years. Cadillac tried to raise prices to BMW levels and guess what it isn't working. 900 + Cadillac dealers vs 340 BMW dealers and they can't give them away or actually they can since one of my local dealers is doing $6,000 off a $36,000 ATS. It doesn't matter if it's the local dealer or national ad GM doesn't get the premium market. Cadillac and Chevy are now basically the same damn vehicles with the same dealers just priced differently. Maybe they will bring back the Chevy Cruze as the Caddy Cimaron.

[Red Bread]

Pricing, engines and transmissions of the non V are way off. Chassis is awesome. Looked, would not buy. A used V in eighteen months or so might be interesting.

[pikkagtr]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Pricing, engines and transmissions of the non V are way off. Chassis is awesome. Looked, would not buy. A used V in eighteen months or so might be interesting.

Well you might get one in 2 years for half off.
Seems like a decent beater

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by pikkagtr

Well you might get one in 2 years for half off.
Seems like a decent beater

Two year old 2.0T's with a manual and the sport package are already less than a 320i. If a lightly used V is less than a new 330i, it will be tempting.

[Mavus]

I was just researching pre-owned cts v wagon. That car is intriguing.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The M3 was the winner in the end was it not?

By 6 points in total... In the performance rating category the ATS-V beat the M3 by 7 points. Remember when "///M" stood for performance? The ATS-V absolutely walks the M3 in the 0 - 150 MPH, 3.5 seconds; that's a lifetime friend. The ATS-V kills the M3 in 300 ft skid pad .97 vs. 1.02 The reviewers didn't like CUE and oh, the windows are now "pinched" on the ATS vs. the F3X chassis - you can read any of the numerous ATS vs. 3-Series competitions in C and D for the past 3 years and this is the first mention that the ATS windows are "pinched" compared to the F-chassis 3 series. The $8,000 ceramic brake option on the M3 gives a whole whooping 4 feet better 70 - 0 brake difference but the ATS has better brake feel and modulation (beats the M3 by 3 points in the ratings)...

LMFO.

[RM7]

Anyone else catch the little blurb about the ATS-V+ being confirmed? Read it in MT today, engineers said car was designed around a V8 and will have the 7L 500+hp engine, which ends up lighter with more hp/tq than the TTV6. Nuts!

[ASAP]

I have so far heard nothing positive about the ats-v engine.

[CirrusSR22]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I have so far heard nothing positive about the ats-v engine.

I've read tons of good things about the engine.

"The 3.6-liter V6 has no obvious power peaks—only a steady flow of mega torque and willingness to run near its 7,500-rpm redline without a wheeze or a complaint. It’s smooth and tractable on the street, and more than powerful enough to compensate for a poorly judged loss of momentum on a track. We don’t doubt Cadillac’s reported 0-60 mph time of 3.9 seconds."

Read more: http://autoweek.com/article/car-revi...#ixzz3gGixneSp


"If you didn’t know better, you'd swear a V8 lurked under the vented hood. The turbo V6 almost feels and sounds like a big eight, and the car launches as if shot from a cannon. Smooth, linear power flows effortlessly to the rear wheels with a deep, warm, and melodic soundtrack exiting from the dual exhaust. Selecting the Sport or Track modes enhances the aural pleasure, thanks to the “engine sound enhancement” coming into play with its more manly sound effects.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/n...rive/index.htm

"And all of that is before you get to the 3.6-liter twin-turbocharged V-6 under the hood, banging out nearly 40 more horsepower than the M3/M4 and about 40 less than the C63 S. But the throttle response of the ATS-V is linear, and nearly as instant as a normally aspirated engine—not that that’s a serious problem for either of the Germans. "

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...st-drive-video

"As for the turbocharged V6, it's a brute, albeit a pleasantly refined one. There's enough force on tap that you should warn your passengers before you plant your right foot, and even then, you're likely to hear some startled noises."

http://www.edmunds.com/cadillac/ats-v/2016/review/

[swanson]

Originally Posted by CirrusSR22

I've read tons of good things about the engine.

"The 3.6-liter V6 has no obvious power peaks—only a steady flow of mega torque and willingness to run near its 7,500-rpm redline without a wheeze or a complaint. It’s smooth and tractable on the street, and more than powerful enough to compensate for a poorly judged loss of momentum on a track. We don’t doubt Cadillac’s reported 0-60 mph time of 3.9 seconds."

Read more: http://autoweek.com/article/car-revi...#ixzz3gGixneSp


"If you didn’t know better, you'd swear a V8 lurked under the vented hood. The turbo V6 almost feels and sounds like a big eight, and the car launches as if shot from a cannon. Smooth, linear power flows effortlessly to the rear wheels with a deep, warm, and melodic soundtrack exiting from the dual exhaust. Selecting the Sport or Track modes enhances the aural pleasure, thanks to the “engine sound enhancement” coming into play with its more manly sound effects.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/n...rive/index.htm

"And all of that is before you get to the 3.6-liter twin-turbocharged V-6 under the hood, banging out nearly 40 more horsepower than the M3/M4 and about 40 less than the C63 S. But the throttle response of the ATS-V is linear, and nearly as instant as a normally aspirated engine—not that that’s a serious problem for either of the Germans. "

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...st-drive-video

"As for the turbocharged V6, it's a brute, albeit a pleasantly refined one. There's enough force on tap that you should warn your passengers before you plant your right foot, and even then, you're likely to hear some startled noises."

http://www.edmunds.com/cadillac/ats-v/2016/review/

Add to that, the class leading chassis tuning and handling, and the ATS-V is the real deal. Some just dont want to admit it.