[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Ghostriderf80

I suppose money talks. Silly to have a manual gearbox.

Enjoy ///M while it lasts, because eventually they'll turn it sideways into an ///E.

If you want an M car buy it, hold on to it, cuz eventually they'll be gone to.

However I have no doubt they'll still slap ///M's all over it

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

More proof that Audi is for poseurs who want to look like they are driving a sports car, while BMW is what actual enthusiasts buy!

What are you getting at? You can get a B9 A4 or A5 with a manual. We won't be able to get a G20 with a manual. The last decade or so has seen Audi offer wagons, manuals and actual limited slip differentials while BMW ignores all of those.

BMW makes a few good products and a few crap products, with lots in between. Same goes for Audi. If you're ignoring one for the other, you're likely missing out.

I've owned regular BMW's, M's and various Audii and VW's. I've enjoyed nearly all of them and really only regretted spending money on the spouse's current F30.

[hinckley]

Originally Posted by akkando

In all seriousness I think there would be good business in doing throwback cars that are only updated to fix major issues, and meet safety standards. I guess there is too much wasted opportunity cost though because the factory could be making something else that probably shares parts with other modern cars.

But yeah I bet BMW could charge a pretty penny for a brand new with warranty e46 m3 with updated subframe etc. Just probably don't offer navigation and just have the basics.

This is a niche market for the well-to-do who want everything - retro styling with modern mechanics and luxury. I don't think a normal Joe is going to spend $100k on an E46 redux. Otoh, these guys know how to do retro right, but it doesn't come cheap. A Singer 911 is sooo on my bucket list.

[adc]

Originally Posted by c63er

Most enthusiasts would take the flawed e46, z3, etc over their modern anodine counterparts. The reliable Toyota like f generation cars are reliable sure but they are also boring.

If you just want reliable and boring there's no reason to buy a BMW other then badge. Many other car companies do reliable even better.

I'll take driving involvement and fun any day over a modern f series BMW and all that brings with it.

I think many others would as well, which is the reason for the original statement.

I find very little in common between the m2 and e46 m3 aside from 2 doors and a lot of marketing.

Couldn’t care less about the “regular” M2. The M2C on the other hand...

The F80 is a beast, and pushing one on the track as much as I dare gives me a bigger kick (and scare) than any previous M efforts. That’s why I’m getting a second one. And yes, with a manual transmission to keep the thread on track.


I may not be interested in the next gen M3 because they keep increasing the size unnecessarily. The M2C (current and next gen) still holds some promise, or maybe a second hand Porsche. All with a manual.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

What are you getting at? You can get a B9 A4 or A5 with a manual. We won't be able to get a G20 with a manual. The last decade or so has seen Audi offer wagons, manuals and actual limited slip differentials while BMW ignores all of those.

BMW makes a few good products and a few crap products, with lots in between. Same goes for Audi. If you're ignoring one for the other, you're likely missing out.

I've owned regular BMW's, M's and various Audii and VW's. I've enjoyed nearly all of them and really only regretted spending money on the spouse's current F30.

This thread is about the F80, call me when the RS5 offers a manual or the RS4 even comes state-side.

[mtoosexy]

Originally Posted by 4MULA_1

You really can't compare the take rate of a manual vs DCT when the DCT costs $3k more!

To truly gauge the take rate they'd both need to be the same price. I'm willing to bet that if they're both the same price, that the take rate of the manuals would drop by more than 60%

Hahahaha... whatever you gotta tell yourself to make you feel better about your "decision"...
I would pay $5K more for a MT.

[mtoosexy]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

This thread is about the F80, call me when the RS5 offers a manual or the RS4 even comes state-side.

I hear ya, I would be more interested in new audis if they offered RWD or MT... I am holding on to my N/A V8MT RS4

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

The question becomes, how much longer will manual take rates hold?

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

I wouldn't mind an M2C. I'm eyeing one as the next car. First BMW in a very long time that has me legit excited.

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by c63er

He does make one mistake. Autonomous cars are not the end of the manual. Innovation (and German over engineering) can make a transmission switchable between manual and automatic control of manual.

Isn't that the dct?

[SCOTT26]

It was never a question for the lower tier M cars such as the M2 but was touch and go for the M3/M4.
Saying that, manuals are done in the M5 and M8.

However recently the take rate in manuals has seen a purge across the portfolio by BMW. If the decline continues then the future is not completely guaranteed.

[c63er]

Originally Posted by Real Dodger

Isn't that the dct?

No. In a manual transmission you must disengage the clutch, shift the gear and then re engage the clutch. Manually.

In a dct there are two clutches, which a computer disengages/engages for you.

The concept would be something similar to the original Aston Martin speed shift or BMW smg gearboxes, but of course with an actual clutch pedal and shifter which could some how be disengaged in favor of computer/robotic control when needed.

Of course this is horribly ineffecient and ineffective compared to a dual clutch. But so is having an engine hanging off the rear axle of a car and look at how far the 911 has come.

[Pic18]

Originally Posted by c63er

Most enthusiasts would take the flawed e46, z3, etc over their modern anodine counterparts. The reliable Toyota like f generation cars are reliable sure but they are also boring.

If you just want reliable and boring there's no reason to buy a BMW other then badge. Many other car companies do reliable even better.

I'll take driving involvement and fun any day over a modern f series BMW and all that brings with it.

I think many others would as well, which is the reason for the original statement.

I find very little in common between the m2 and e46 m3 aside from 2 doors and a lot of marketing.

You are correct in that I might be in the minority, but I consider myself an enthusiast and I currently own a E46 M3 and an F80 so I have a frame of reference. The F80 is in no way whatsoever boring and has plenty of involvement. The E46 is great, but every time I hop back in the F80 it is just better and to be honest more fun to drive.

In 10-15 years I am sure the conversation will be about how horrible the new H80 or I80 is and how the F80 was such a gem.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by hinckley

This is a niche market for the well-to-do who want everything - retro styling with modern mechanics and luxury. I don't think a normal Joe is going to spend $100k on an E46 redux. Otoh, these guys know how to do retro right, but it doesn't come cheap. A Singer 911 is sooo on my bucket list.

I feel like Porsche could do it because they can charge an arm and a leg for their limited cars and their customers won't even blink. BMW customers might not be able to afford the price point that makes it worth it.


Is anyone doing something similar to the Singer thing for BMWs? If I was a retired rich guy that seems like a fun business to start up.

[c63er]

Originally Posted by akkando

I feel like Porsche could do it because they can charge an arm and a leg for their limited cars and their customers won't even blink. BMW customers might not be able to afford the price point that makes it worth it.


Is anyone doing something similar to the Singer thing for BMWs? If I was a retired rich guy that seems like a fun business to start up.

This is absolutely a good business idea, but it would have to be done right. There are many glorious cars from bmws past to support this. The problem is most shops in the BMW realm capable of the technical aspects have no eye for design details and high quality craftsmanship. Ask me I know. I have been trying for some time to build my own singer type BMW but it is impossible to find the right people to do this in the BMW world right now. At this stage it has to be an amalgam project between different people with different skill sets and simply unrealistic to scale up.

But one day when I retire I will take up this challenge. Hopefully someone smarter and better will beat me to the punch as I believe there is a larger market for it.

[hinckley]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

However recently the take rate in manuals has seen a purge across the portfolio by BMW.

I'd like to understand the reference data behind this statement. There's a lot of numbers that get throw about regarding MT take-up rates across all BMW models or all BMW markets, but the data that's really important is take-up rate per model per market. It's one thing to say that there's a 2% take-up rate across all 4/M4 models world-wide, and a very different thing to say that there's a 20% take-up rate for the M4 in North America.

[tareemaa]

Originally Posted by 4MULA_1

You really can't compare the take rate of a manual vs DCT when the DCT costs $3k more!

To truly gauge the take rate they'd both need to be the same price. I'm willing to bet that if they're both the same price, that the take rate of the manuals would drop by more than 60%

I highly doubt the buyer of a 70k+ car cares about an extra few grand for choice of the trans. Personally I'd pay extra for manual if need be. Manuals are making a bit of a comeback, look at porsche, manuals on the used Porsche market demand more at this point. Audi and Benz would sell more of their performance models if they had manuals.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

It was never a question for the lower tier M cars such as the M2 but was touch and go for the M3/M4.
Saying that, manuals are done in the M5 and M8.

However recently the take rate in manuals has seen a purge across the portfolio by BMW. If the decline continues then the future is not completely guaranteed.

How much of this is consumer driven vs producer? My sales guy mentioned that they were no longer able to order manual 3ers or M cars without a purchase order.

For the average consumer who doesn't consider ordering a car, if a dealer has 217 cars and every single one of them is an automatic, why would they think they even could get a manual?

It's no different than BMW USA only offering an automatic, awd and the four cylinder in the wagon and then blaming us that no one buys wagons anymore. No, just not the rubbish offerings that we were given.

[MiamiFan13]

Originally Posted by 4MULA_1

You really can't compare the take rate of a manual vs DCT when the DCT costs $3k more!

To truly gauge the take rate they'd both need to be the same price. I'm willing to bet that if they're both the same price, that the take rate of the manuals would drop by more than 60%

Seriously? You think people are buying manuals to save $3k??? No way. Actually , if manuals were $3k more the take rate would be the same.

[upsidedownfunnel]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

What are you getting at? You can get a B9 A4 or A5 with a manual. We won't be able to get a G20 with a manual. The last decade or so has seen Audi offer wagons, manuals and actual limited slip differentials while BMW ignores all of those.

BMW makes a few good products and a few crap products, with lots in between. Same goes for Audi. If you're ignoring one for the other, you're likely missing out.

I've owned regular BMW's, M's and various Audii and VW's. I've enjoyed nearly all of them and really only regretted spending money on the spouse's current F30.

The B9 A4 2.0T no longer is available with a manual as of My2019.

I am an open critic of BMWs suspension and steering, but Audi is not quite there yet. From having the engine way out front and having even number steering than BMW, Audi is a fashion brand. BMW is definitely no performance benchmark anymore and I laugh at people who still think that, but it's not quite as bad as Audi yet.

[Brake_Late]

M is for Manual #3pedalsnob
#yesitamanual
Let's keep the demand up !

[NormanConquest]

Glad BMW listen to it customer base especially in an era where many companies dont EA, Apple, Google, VW, and so on.