[F32Fleet]

This is so stupid.

[rjd_F30]

Originally Posted by alex2364

Other than the engine, there is nothing on the M340i that isn’t available on the 330i. It is no more of a M car than a 330i M Sport with adaptive M suspension. You could even order the 330i with a M differential in the early G20 days.

Well said; this is the most important point to be focusing on in this discussion. It leads into the question: what makes and M car, an M car? And while that can't be answered definitively, I think everyone would agree that it's not just horsepower, which is all the M340i offers over the 330i (save for a few M340i-exclusive cosmetics).

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by rjd_F30

Well said; this is the most important point to be focusing on in this discussion. It leads into the question: what makes and M car, an M car? And while that can't be answered definitively, I think everyone would agree that it's not just horsepower, which is all the M340i offers over the 330i (save for a few M340i-exclusive cosmetics).

No, it really isn’t. Because this discussion isn’t about M340i’s and certainly not about 330i’s. It’s not about 3ers at all. It’s about true ///M cars vs M Sport cars and BMW’s decision to start including their sales numbers in with GmbH true ///M car numbers to somehow inflate them. And when we talk about M Sport cars we are talking about cars that come from the factory with GmbH’s fingerprints, not other models that can have options added to them in one way or another to make them kind of like M Sport cars.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

hmmm…I’m a big fan of the M340i and I realize BMW may disagree with me, but I do not consider these M performance cars to be true BMW M GmbH cars. I wonder what the numbers were in the past and what they would be today without counting these cars?

I don't even know if they count the M340i as a M division car.

[TEGRITY]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Well, now you’ve gone in the other direction, because that’s not correct. The G20 M340i is significantly more than an F30 340i M Sport. No one is saying the M Sport division hasn’t “massaged” the latest cars with the M badge in the front. That’s been happening for over forty years. But, it doesn’t make them true M cars whose sales should be reported in the same category.

F30 340i added with M Performance Power and Sound Kit (excluding sound!?!) and LSD is pretty much the G20 M340i. 340i with MPPSK sounded way better and louder than the M340i IMO. The pops are louder than gun fire, if that’s your thing! Guess, BMW didn’t include the sound coding bit as it may sound louder than the stock G80 exhaust with more pops and bangs.

I really enjoyed my F32 with MPPSK for about 3.5 years and drove it hard. We had a good relationship. My F82s were always waiting to get me, not a solid relationship after all. I realised that I had a lot to learn and put some effort into understanding the car and our limits. I guess that’s the real difference for me between M lite and M.

90s / 30 years ago, owing a C class or a 3 series wasn’t this easy or common. Now, it’s a different world we live in. For BMW, it’s more a numbers game and with the emergence of EVs, what M stands for is bound to significantly change. It makes no sense to me but should make sense to the new or upcoming generations and the original M enthusiasts can book their spots at the museums!

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by TEGRITY

90s / 30 years ago, owing a C class or a 3 series wasn’t this easy or common. Now, it’s a different world we live in. For BMW, it’s more a numbers game and with the emergence of EVs, what M stands for is bound to significantly change. It makes no sense to me but should make sense to the new or upcoming generations and the original M enthusiasts can book their spots at the museums!

This is besides the point... but, speaking for the US at least - owning a 3 series today is actually less common than it has been in the past (you can blame the X3 for cannibalization of sales). And while owning a BMW in general is definitely more common today, it's not some mass market juggernaut... we have to remember it's still a luxury brand and only represents ~2% of auto market share. Granted, among luxury brands it's at or near the top.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by rjd_F30

Well said; this is the most important point to be focusing on in this discussion. It leads into the question: what makes and M car, an M car?

I would think the definition of a M car is the VIN prefix.

E.g. for German built cars, WBS is true M, while WBA is not.

The true M has DNAs(e.g. chassis reinforcements) that the road-ready M-performance cars cannot be retrofitted with.

W.r.t. GmbH sales numbers, it would be nice to see the breakdown across the true M and non-M across the models.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by TEGRITY

F30 340i added with M Performance Power and Sound Kit (excluding sound!?!) and LSD is pretty much the G20 M340i.

The F30 340i with MPPSK final output numbers are 355hp (+35hp over stock) and 369 lb-ft for auto (+39 lb-ft over stock) / 355 lb-ft for manual (+25 lb-ft over stock), so it is a power bump on stock B58B30M0.

In contrast, G20 M340i has aB58B30O1 382HP/369lb-ft from the factory, so there is +27HP over the F30 340i + MPPSK.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1304356

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

The F30 340i with MPPSK final output numbers are 355hp (+35hp over stock) and 369 lb-ft for auto (+39 lb-ft over stock) / 355 lb-ft for manual (+25 lb-ft over stock), so it is a power bump on stock B58B30M0.

In contrast, G20 M340i has aB58B30O1 382HP/369lb-ft from the factory, so there is +27HP over the F30 340i + MPPSK.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1304356

Thank you for posting this. I was just too tired of straightening things out to bother with it. I guess I’ll go ahead and add a little more. There’s the transmission tuning. The G20 B58 motor and ZF8 transmission tuning is absolute perfection!! I have never driven a BMW with an automatic transmission that was so perfectly tuned to the motor. This is the biggest thing I miss. The F30 B58 and its ZF8 transmission are very good together, but the G20 combination moves up to another level. And then the LSD and the brakes. And most folks would say the suspension.

[TEGRITY]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

The F30 340i with MPPSK final output numbers are 355hp (+35hp over stock) and 369 lb-ft for auto (+39 lb-ft over stock) / 355 lb-ft for manual (+25 lb-ft over stock), so it is a power bump on stock B58B30M0.

In contrast, G20 M340i has aB58B30O1 382HP/369lb-ft from the factory, so there is +27HP over the F30 340i + MPPSK.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1304356

Yes, hence I said “pretty much” not exactly the same.

[rjd_F30]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

No, it really isn’t. Because this discussion isn’t about M340i’s and certainly not about 330i’s. It’s not about 3ers at all. It’s about true ///M cars vs M Sport cars and BMW’s decision to start including their sales numbers in with GmbH true ///M car numbers to somehow inflate them. And when we talk about M Sport cars we are talking about cars that come from the factory with GmbH’s fingerprints, not other models that can have options added to them in one way or another to make them kind of like M Sport cars.

Preface: not trying to argue with you here. I respect your opinion and think this is an interesting discussion.

That said: I think we're both getting at the same questions but coming up with different answers. You say "It's about true ///M cars vs M Sport cars and BMW's decision to start including their sales numbers in with GmbH true ///M car numbers." Right, and what I, and others, are getting at is: should the M Perf. cars be included in these sales numbers? I'm saying probably not, because they aren't true M cars. Just because M GmbH "massaged" the cars with an "M" exhaust, winged mirrors, and some software does not make it an M car. Save for the newer -60i badged cars, they don't have M engines with "S" prefixes, M chassis/steering tuning, or any unique suspension components compared to their M sport package little siblings. They are definitely a step up from the normal series cars, and great cars in their own right, but not full M and shouldn't be considered as such, IMO. That exclusion should extend to sales numbers and I think it's disingenuous for BMW to say they sold xxx amount of M cars, and then include M340i, X3 M40i, X5 M60i etc.

[rjd_F30]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

I would think the definition of a M car is the VIN prefix.

E.g. for German built cars, WBS is true M, while WBA is not.

The true M has DNAs(e.g. chassis reinforcements) that the road-ready M-performance cars cannot be retrofitted with.

W.r.t. GmbH sales numbers, it would be nice to see the breakdown across the true M and non-M across the models.

That's an interesting point, so true M cars have different VIN prefixes than series cars? If true I didn't know that...

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by rjd_F30

That's an interesting point, so true M cars have different VIN prefixes than series cars? If true I didn't know that...

True. True M cars have all been WBS, not WBA.

[Tejas1836]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

True. True M cars have all been WBS, not WBA.

[cars=vehicle in my terminology]

WBS- real M cars from Germany
The X series real Ms will be 5UM or 5YM

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Tejas1836

[cars=vehicle in my terminology]

WBS- real M cars from Germany
The X series real Ms will be 5UM or 5YM

When I think of true M series for some reason I never think of the X5 and X6 Ms. It’s not intentional. I just don’t think of them. I guess I also forget about the 1M and M8, too. The M1, M3, M5 & M6 are what comes to mind when thinking about BMW M.

Any idea why the X Ms have two VINs?

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by Tejas1836

[cars=vehicle in my terminology]

WBS- real M cars from Germany
The X series real Ms will be 5UM or 5YM

So, new M2: Not a real M-car?

[Tejas1836]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

So, new M2: Not a real M-car?

I'm not touching that

[Tejas1836]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

When I think of true M series for some reason I never think of the X5 and X6 Ms. It’s not intentional. I just don’t think of them. I guess I also forget about the 1M and M8, too. The M1, M3, M5 & M6 are what comes to mind when thinking about BMW M.

Any idea why the X Ms have two VINs?

No idea

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by Tejas1836

I'm not touching that

Well, at least you can still get the M2 in a stick!
That's better than all but two of the current "M" cars sold in the USA!

[Rafichicago]

It’s just like always. Manufacturers tell customers what they need/want it’s quite pathetic people fal for that Everyone on the forums is bitching about grill and they run to the dealerships to place an order 🤣
That’s the exact reason we as enthusiasts will continue to get crappy vehicles from automakers.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by rjd_F30

That's an interesting point, so true M cars have different VIN prefixes than series cars? If true I didn't know that...

The VINs of M3 vs. M340i are WBA and WBS(when produced in Germany). Those apply to M3/M4/M5/M8 true M vs. 3/4/5/8-series non-M and M-lite.

M2 also has VIN prefix of WBS when produced in Germany, but if 2023 onward M2 is produced in other areas, their VIN prefix would be different than WBS too.

The X non-M and its corresponding true M are produced in different areas and in different product type, so they have their own pairs of VINs.

E.g. NA built X3/X4/X5 M are 5YM and NA built X3/X4/X5 non-M and M-lite are 5UX.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Tejas1836

[cars=vehicle in my terminology]

WBS- real M cars from Germany
The X series real Ms will be 5UM or 5YM

I see US built X3/X4/X5/XM as 5YM, which X model is 5UM?