[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So let's just examine this picture. The picture is from Germany, as one can ascertain from the license plates on the BMWs. Of the seven cars in the photo, 3 are Fieros, 2 are VWs, and 2 are BMWs. The neatly-parked VWs and Fieros have obviously been parked in the lot for a few days as evidenced by the small piles of snow that have slid off the hood in front of each car. The only cars that show evidence of being driven recently (that day) are the two BMWs (BMW employee cars perhaps). What is fascinating is how close the two pictures of the de-paneled Z1 and Fiero really are. The laid-out placement of the removed panels is almost exactly the same (i.e. front bumper, hood, front fender, side mirror, door skin, rocker panel, rear fender, etc.). It's almost like the same person was in charge of setting the display of both pictures. Also interesting is GM didn't export the Fiero to Europe, but somehow this establishment has three of them. But we’d surely not think that maybe BMW was reverse engineering the Fiero; that would be blasphemy!

Now hold on there professor - I spy an E36 Estate in that photo with registration. The E36 platform was not produced until 1990 which means the photo above is from the 90's too. That is well past the 1986 press release and subsequent 1988 production date of the Z1. And we both know development/prototyping started well before those dates in order for a Z1 to be on display at the 1987 Frankfurt Auto Show. One can ascertain this information from the internets.

That means the conspiracy theory and reverse engineering quips you ascertained from your photo analysis is actually undeniably wrong.

Wha-wah!

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Clifton

Now hold on there professor - I spy an E36 Estate in that photo with registration. The E36 platform was not produced until 1990 which means the photo above is from the 90's too. That is well past the 1986 press release and subsequent 1988 production date of the Z1. And we both know development/prototyping started well before those dates in order for a Z1 to be on display at the 1987 Frankfurt Auto Show. One can ascertain this information from the internets.

That means the conspiracy theory and reverse engineering quips you ascertained from your photo analysis is actually undeniably wrong.

Wha-wah!

I was hoping you'd see the e36 and say that. It means that you do recognize that the Z1 was prototyped in 1986, 3 years after after the Fiero was offered for sale starting in 1983.

As the specs and pictures prove, the two cars are nearly identical in size and chassis design.

With GM being first to market with the Fiero, 5 years ahead of BMW.

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I was hoping you'd see the e36 and say that. It means that you do recognize that the Z1 was prototyped in 1986, 3 years after after the Fiero was offered for sale starting in 1983.

As the specs and pictures prove, the two cars are nearly identical in size and chassis design.

With GM being first to market with the Fiero, 5 years ahead of BMW.

There is no elaborate trap here, just an hoax on your part. Desperate, you lifted a photo off the web and tried to manifest a CSI styled discovery of corporate espionage. Not a big surprise that you got it all wrong. I am embarrassed for you.

Click for the true source

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'm done with responding to you; it really is a bore.

Yet another broken promise.

[fitchesbass]

I was in Munich two fridays ago and they had a huge Z1 meet at the BMW Welt.

Took some pictures:

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Clifton

There is no elaborate trap here, just an hoax on your part. Desperate, you lifted a photo off the web and tried to manifest a CSI styled discovery of corporate espionage. Not a big surprise that you got it all wrong. I am embarrassed for you.

Click for the true source





Yet another broken promise.

Oops you caught me! Yeah that's where I found the picture too. Maybe a bit more research on your part would have had you post this from the website too: (you made it about the car, not me). Hey, it's the internet, just kickin' the legs out...

Fiero facts

Performance

The V6 Fiero hit .84-.86g on the skidpad (4 cylinder was roughly .80-82g)

- Porsche 911 Carrera -> .85g (the Carrera 4 was at .83g)
- Ferrari Testarossa -> .84g
- Lotus Esprit Turbo -> .86g
- Lamborghini Diablo VT -> .87g
- Acura NSX -> .87g
- Acura Integra GS-R -> .82g
- Pontiac Firebird Trans Am/Formula (’93+) -> .82g-.85g
- Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX -> .86g

The Fiero ran the slalom at 63.4-63.9 mph (about 61.5 for 4 cylinder models)

- Pontiac Firebird Trans Am -> 59.7 mph
- Lotus Epsrit S4 -> 60.6 mph
- Porsche 911 Carrera -> 61.9 mph
- BMW M3 -> 62.8 mph
- Corvette ZR-1 -> 63.6 mph
- Ferrari 348 -> 62.8 mph
- Acura NSX -> 62.3 mph
- Dodge Viper -> 62.7 mph
- Ford Mustang Cobra (1994) -> 61.1 mph
- Nissan 300ZX Turbo -> 63.0 mph

The V6 Fiero consistantly accelerated from 0-30 in 2.2 seconds- The Lamborghini Diablo manages 0-30 in 2.2 seconds.

Best quarter mile time for a stock V6 Fiero: 14.7 @ 92 mph. Worst: 17.0 @ 80 mph. Both Fieros were GT’s with manual transmissions.

Best top speed for a stock V6 Fiero: 135 mph. Worst: 115 mph. Both Fieros were ‘85 GT’s, the latter with an automatic transmission.


BTW none of the crap you've posted has countered my original position that the Fireo and the Z1 are both Monocoque-frame, Bolt-on Plastic-Paneled cars. BMW infers the concept was some great achievement on thier part, when GM came up with the idea in the 1970's and sold a mass-production car using the technology starting in 1983 (the first Z1 was delivered in 1989). GM then started a new car company with the technology, and also developed and sold a minivan using the same space-frame technology. BMW built 8,000 hand-built units. Wooptie -F'n- doo.

A little more research on your part and you'd have found that GE Plastics out of Pittsfield Mass. developed and produced most of the Z1 body panels...

But I digress...

And this pic of the fasionable late '70s Fiero designers!

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Oops you caught me! Yeah that's where I found the picture too. Maybe a bit more research on your part would have had you post this from the website too: (hey you made it about the car, not me)

Fiero facts:
garbage and more garbage

BTW none of the crap you've posted has countered my original position that the Fireo and the Z1 are both Monocoque-frame, Bolt-on Plastic-Paneled cars. BMW infers the concept was some great achievement on thier part, when GM came up with the idea in the 1970's and sold a mass-production car using the technology starting in 1983 (the first Z1 was delivered in 1989). GM then started a new car company with the technology, and also developed and sold a minivan using the same space-frame technology. BMW built 8,000 hand-built units. Wooptie -F'n- doo.

A little more research on your part and you'd have found that GE Plastics out of Pittsfield Mass. developed and produced most of the Z1 body panels...

But I digress...

And this pic of the fasionable late '70s designers!

ENINTY/CASPER/Efthreeoh,
Have you ever stopped and actually thought about why you were banned from this board, not once, but twice. You really should.

No one cares about manipulated performance data of Fiero in a BMW forum. I'll remind you that the thread title is "The BMW Z1 Turns 25. Back to the Future". Yet every post from you has been about a turd on wheels called the Fiero. We can all recognize that some members of this society have bad taste, but repeated viewings of someone digitally osculating them self over a Fiero is kind of sad.

Since your feathers are ruffled that I never countered, let's revisit my third post. There you will find that I kicked the legs out on the Fiero was first belief. Spoiler alert, GM was not the first.

Originally Posted by Clifton

I think if I were going to spend as much time as you have to pollute a thread, I would at least try and be correct with my history. For example, the Fiero was not the first monocoque-framed car. I would tell you who was, but as a growth opportunity, I think you should research for yourself. Further, plastic body panels were already in use on cars well before the Fiero.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Clifton

ENINTY/CASPER/Efthreeoh,
Have you ever stopped and actually thought about why you were banned from this board, not once, but twice. You really should.

No one cares about manipulated performance data of Fiero in a BMW forum. I'll remind you that the thread title is "The BMW Z1 Turns 25. Back to the Future". Yet every post from you has been about a turd on wheels called the Fiero. We can all recognize that some members of this society have bad taste, but repeated viewings of someone digitally osculating them self over a Fiero is kind of sad.

Since your feathers are ruffled that I never countered, let's revisit my third post. There you will find that I kicked the legs out on the Fiero was first belief. Spoiler alert, GM was not the first.

So again, without insult or inuendo, I will eplain why you are wrong and have not in any of your posts "kicked the legs out" of anything.

Here's your complete 3rd post (insults retained too):

Originally Posted by Clifton

I think if I were going to spend as much time as you have to pollute a thread, I would at least try and be correct with my history. For example, the Fiero was not the first monocoque-framed car. I would tell you who was, but as a growth opportunity, I think you should research for yourself. Further, plastic body panels were already in use on cars well before the Fiero.

Perhaps the point you were struggling to make was that Pontiac "borrowed" those fuel saving ideas from other car companies. Which is mildly interesting, but as you can see has no relevance within a BMW forum and is a little weak when attempting to discredit the Z1's for similar advancements.

And if you are genuinely consumed with setting some kind of meaningless record straight, it seems silly to do so within a small internet forum in a thread titled "The BMW Z1 Turns 25. Back to the Future." There again, by definition, is the open door that trolls live for.


PS: For the record, I am not insulting anyone. I'm simply letting the hot air escape from an over inflated balloon.

First off you’ve disassociated the use of the two technologies under discussion here, whereas BMW in the press release speaks to both the use of a self-supporting monocoque frame WITH bolt-on, no load-bearing plastic panels for the body as a new and innovative way to build an automobile. The concept of a monocoque (unit construction) body certainly is not new (almost every car since the 50’s is build that way) and there were monocoque chassis cars well before 1983. But the point I made was the combined use of a monocoque frame AND plastic panels was first developed and put into mass production by GM with the Fiero. I’ve not claimed the Fiero was the first monocoque framed (or chassis) car.

Second, you’re just plain wrong about the use of plastic panels in mass produced cars. If you count the Corvette, then sure there was use of plastic in car construction, but the Corvette is fiberglass and not of a monocoque frame design. The C5 did use Sheet Molded Compound (SMC) for the clamshell hood (as some of the panels of the Fiero were SMC too). But we all know who builds the Corvette and the C5 was introduced about the same time as the Fiero as a 1984 model.

And then you suggest Pontiac used other companies concepts to achieve it high fuel mileage rating, but alas you cite no such technology. The Fiero used GM’s aged Iron Duke four banger and corporate V6 engines with contemporary for the time intake and exhaust technologies.

And then finally there's the picture of the flaming 2M4. Yes, the first-year production Fieros had issues with engine fires due to poorly manufactured connecting rods that would break, hole the block, and allow oil to catch fire on the catalytic converters - everyone knows this; but your picture clearly shows the blue Fiero on fire inside the cabin. This interior fire could have been from a poorly extinguished cigarette, or a badly wired after market stereo; we don't know. But it certainly wasn't an engine fire since the BACK of the car is not on fire.

And just to reiterate, my discussion has never been about the Fiero and how it matches up, or not against the Z1; it's been about who developed the construction concept and use of plastic body panels, and who brought it to market first. You're the one who brought the comparason of the two cars into the discussion and have repeatedly infered the Fiero is a "turd". None of what you've posted has countered my point.
__________________

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So again, without insult or inuendo, I will eplain why you are wrong and have not in any of your posts "kicked the legs out" of anything.

Here's your complete 3rd post (insults retained too):


First off you’ve disassociated the use of the two technologies under discussion here, whereas BMW in the press release speaks to both the use of a self-supporting monocoque frame WITH bolt-on, no load-bearing plastic panels for the body as a new and innovative way to build an automobile. The concept of a monocoque (unit construction) body certainly is not new (almost every car since the 50’s is build that way) and there were monocoque chassis cars well before 1983. But the point I made was the combined use of a monocoque frame AND plastic panels was first developed and put into mass production by GM with the Fiero. I’ve not claimed the Fiero was the first monocoque framed (or chassis) car.

Second, you’re just plain wrong about the use of plastic panels in mass produced cars. If you count the Corvette, then sure there was use of plastic in car construction, but the Corvette is fiberglass and not of a monocoque frame design. The C5 did use Sheet Molded Compound (SMC) for the clamshell hood (as some of the panels of the Fiero were SMC too). But we all know who builds the Corvette and the C5 was introduced about the same time as the Fiero as a 1984 model.

And then you suggest Pontiac used other companies concepts to achieve it high fuel mileage rating, but alas you cite no such technology. The Fiero used GM’s aged Iron Duke four banger and corporate V6 engines with contemporary for the time intake and exhaust technologies.

And then finally there's the picture of the flaming 2M4. Yes, the first-year production Fieros had issues with engine fires due to poorly manufactured connecting rods that would break, hole the block, and allow oil to catch fire on the catalytic converters - everyone knows this; but your picture clearly shows the blue Fiero on fire inside the cabin. This interior fire could have been from a poorly extinguished cigarette, or a badly wired after market stereo; we don't know. But it certainly wasn't an engine fire since the BACK of the car is not on fire.

And just to reiterate, my discussion has never been about the Fiero and how it matches up, or not against the Z1; it's been about who developed the construction concept and use of plastic body panels, and who brought it to market first. You're the one who brought the comparason of the two cars into the discussion and have repeatedly infered the Fiero is a "turd". None of what you've posted has countered my point.

Lot's of back peddling and false beliefs in the above series of statements. A sign you've painted yourself into a corner and are looking for new ground. You've slithered pretty far from your first post in this thread:

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Other than it being a roadster with doors that slid down into the frame what is unique about the car? The construction design of a "self-supporting monocoque" with plastic body panels had already been pioneered by General Motors and put into production with the 1984 Pontiac Fiero and continued in production well into the 1990's under the guize of Saturn cars.

With the genesis of your argument in bold above and where my cross-hairs have remained, lets take a moment to review history. Below, the who was "first" is not really relevant, however each date before the 1984 Fiero is.

<< Rewind <<

1923: Lancia Lambda becomes the first monocoque-type body used in production.

1934: Chrysler and Citroën build the first mass-produced monocoque vehicles.

1936: Otto Röhm, a German Scientist, who perfected and created "PEXIGLAS" introduced it commercially where it began being used by automotive and aviation industries.

1939: Fisher Body and Röhm & Haas create two plexiglass car bodies for GM to provide an X-ray view of GM’s latest steel bodied cars to showcase the engineering, features and sales points of their C-body and B-body cars.


1941: Henry Ford experiments with making plastic parts for automobiles and unveils the "Soybean Car" a plastic-bodied car at Dearborn Days, an annual community festival. The car had a total of 14 plastic panels attached on a tubular frame.


>> FAST FORWARD >>

1957: Lotus introduces the Elite, an ultra-light two seat coupe with it's most distinctive feature being a reinforced plastic material for the entire monocoque chassis.


1968: Citroën introduces the DS 21 PALLAS. A monocoque chassis available with a plastic roof panel.


1968: Porsche introduced the 914 prototype, a two seat, mid-engine sports car.


1969: Fiat introduces the X1/9 as a concept sports-car with two seats and mid-engine .


>> FAST FORWARD >>

1982: Citroën introduces the BX that makes extensive use of plastic body panels (bonnet, tailgate, bumpers). *Citroën mass produced 2,315,739 of BX in the 12 year production run.


1982: Porsche develops the 956 an aluminum monocoque chassis with glass resin-formed plastic body panels and takes it racing.


1983: Honda introduces the CRX that featured new-tech plastic body panels for the front fenders and "header" panel between the headlamps.


Your primary argument is: With the Fiero, GM pioneered the construction design of a self-supporting monocoque with plastic body panels. Let's break that down one by one and check against history:

GM Fiero "pioneered" a self-supporting monocoque - NOPE
GM Fiero "pioneered" a car with plastic body panels - NOPE
GM Fiero "pioneered" a monocoque with plastic body panels - NOPE
GM Fiero "pioneered" a monocoque and all plastic body panels - NOPE
GM Fiero "pioneered" a two seat mid-engine sports car - NOPE
GM Fiero "pioneered" a two seat mid-engine sports car with monocoque and plastic body panels - NOPE

You flame the Z1's marketing for claiming to be innovative. Then you introduce the Fiero suggesting that it pioneered the very ideas used in the Z1.

As illustrated, the reality is that GM and the nerdy Fiero design team simply repackaged and leverage 40+ year old ideas and technologies from their original pioneers.

Simply stated, the very same argument you use against the Z1 can factually be applied to take out the Fiero. In other words, you don't have a single leg to stand upon.....

That my friend is "checkmate"

[VMRWheels]

Whenever I see this car, I instantly think of Jeremy Clarkson's wife.

[Red Bread]

Thank you for finally bringing the 914 and X1/9 into this riveting conversation.

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Thank you for finally bringing the 914 and X1/9 into this riveting conversation.

Haha, I actually forgotten about those until you mentioned them earlier. So you know I had to find a way to included them both.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Clifton

Lot's of back peddling and false beliefs in the above series of statements. A sign you've painted yourself into a corner and are looking for new ground. You've slithered pretty far from your first post in this thread:



With the genesis of your argument in bold above and where my cross-hairs have remained, lets take a moment to review history. Below, the who was "first" is not really relevant, however each date before the 1984 Fiero is.

<< Rewind <<

1923: Lancia Lambda becomes the first monocoque-type body used in production.

1934: Chrysler and Citroën build the first mass-produced monocoque vehicles.

1936: Otto Röhm, a German Scientist, who perfected and created "PEXIGLAS" introduced it commercially where it began being used by automotive and aviation industries.

1939: Fisher Body and Röhm & Haas create two plexiglass car bodies for GM to provide an X-ray view of GM’s latest steel bodied cars to showcase the engineering, features and sales points of their C-body and B-body cars.


1941: Henry Ford experiments with making plastic parts for automobiles and unveils the "Soybean Car" a plastic-bodied car at Dearborn Days, an annual community festival. The car had a total of 14 plastic panels attached on a tubular frame.


>> FAST FORWARD >>

1957: Lotus introduces the Elite, an ultra-light two seat coupe with it's most distinctive feature being a reinforced plastic material for the entire monocoque chassis.


1968: Citroën introduces the DS 21 PALLAS. A monocoque chassis available with a plastic roof panel.


1968: Porsche introduced the 914 prototype, a two seat, mid-engine sports car.


1969: Fiat introduces the X1/9 as a concept sports-car with two seats and mid-engine .


>> FAST FORWARD >>

1982: Citroën introduces the BX that makes extensive use of plastic body panels (bonnet, tailgate, bumpers). *Citroën mass produced 2,315,739 of BX in the 12 year production run.


1982: Porsche develops the 956 an aluminum monocoque chassis with glass resin-formed plastic body panels and takes it racing.


1983: Honda introduces the CRX that featured new-tech plastic body panels for the front fenders and "header" panel between the headlamps.


Your primary argument is: With the Fiero, GM pioneered the construction design of a self-supporting monocoque with plastic body panels. Let's break that down one by one and check against history:

GM Fiero "pioneered" a self-supporting monocoque - NOPE
GM Fiero "pioneered" a car with plastic body panels - NOPE
GM Fiero "pioneered" a monocoque with plastic body panels - NOPE
GM Fiero "pioneered" a monocoque and all plastic body panels - NOPE
GM Fiero "pioneered" a two seat mid-engine sports car - NOPE
GM Fiero "pioneered" a two seat mid-engine sports car with monocoque and plastic body panels - NOPE

You flame the Z1's marketing for claiming to be innovative. Then you introduce the Fiero suggesting that it pioneered the very ideas used in the Z1.

As illustrated, the reality is that GM and the nerdy Fiero design team simply repackaged and leverage 40+ year old ideas and technologies from their original pioneers.

Simply stated, the very same argument you use against the Z1 can factually be applied to take out the Fiero. In other words, you don't have a single leg to stand upon.....

That my friend is "checkmate"

Thanks for finally providing some actual information; we're getting somewhere. While all those history facts are true in most respects, none are applicable to the point I've made, that betweeen the Z1 and Fiero, which use the same constuction design, the Fiero poioneered that specific design. And now I see that you are in agreement that the Z1 isn't so unique after all, and BMW really didn't do anything more than make a roadster out of plastic body panels, which is my original point.

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Thanks for finally providing some actual information; we're getting somewhere. While all those history facts are true in most respects, none are applicable to the point I've made, that betweeen the Z1 and Fiero, which use the same constuction design, the Fiero poioneered that specific design. And now I see that you are in agreement that the Z1 isn't so unique after all, and BMW really didn't do anything more than make a roadster out of plastic body panels, which is my original point.

That is the extraordinary event that occurs with checkmate - The losing opponent can say whatever he wants to make himself feel better about his moves, however, in the end he still must acquiesce.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Clifton

That is the extraordinary event that occurs with checkmate - The losing opponent can say whatever he wants to make himself feel better about his moves, however, in the end he still must acquiesce.

No. Actually what happened is, as in typical Clifton fashion, you take people's posts and add words to them, or disassociate connected ideas presented in them, then go on to try and refute what (actually was not) said. You've done this several times in this thread with my posts. So for the record I never wrote nor implied the following:

GM Fiero "pioneered" a self-supporting monocoque
GM Fiero "pioneered" a car with plastic body panels
GM Fiero "pioneered" a two seat mid-engine sports car

But you pointed to a bunch of cars, several being either engineering display models (GM's Plexiglas car), or engineering test beds (Ford's soybean car), race cars (the Porsche), or fiberglass monocoque bodied (the Lotus), etc. None of these cars counter my point.

I did say the GM Fiero pioneered a monocoque "frame" (there's a difference between monocoque frames and monocoque-body cars) with bolt-on non-structural plastic body panels. None of the cars you've pointed to are of that specific design; the BMW Z1 is however. Which is what my point has always been; that between the Z1 and Fiero, GM pioneered the concept almost 8 years before BMW and put it into production 5 years before BMW.

And also just for the record, I did not manipulate any of the Fiero data as you claim, I copied it directly from the fellow's website (go and check).

Have fun. Cheers. I'll stop all the banter, so our fellow Fourm Members can start enjoying the Forum again. Hope you can too.

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

No. Actually what happened is, as in typical Clifton fashion, you take people's posts and add words to them, or disassociate connected ideas presented in them, then go on to try and refute what (actually was not) said. You've done this several times in this thread with my posts. So for the record I never wrote nor implied the following:

GM Fiero "pioneered" a self-supporting monocoque
GM Fiero "pioneered" a car with plastic body panels
GM Fiero "pioneered" a two seat mid-engine sports car

But you pointed to a bunch of cars, several being either engineering display models (GM's Plexiglas car), or engineering test beds (Ford's soybean car), race cars (the Porsche), or fiberglass monocoque bodied (the Lotus), etc. None of these cars counter my point.

I did say the GM Fiero pioneered a monocoque "frame" (there's a difference between monocoque frames and monocoque-body cars) with bolt-on non-structural plastic body panels. None of the cars you've pointed to are of that specific design; the BMW Z1 is however. Which is what my point has always been; that between the Z1 and Fiero, GM pioneered the concept almost 8 years before BMW and put it into production 5 years before BMW.

And also just for the record, I did not manipulate any of the Fiero data as you claim, I copied it directly from the fellow's website (go and check).

Have fun. Cheers. I'll stop all the banter, so our fellow Fourm Members can start enjoying the Forum again. Hope you can too.

What I enjoy is that with every post that I prove wrong, you respond with a new "spin" on your original argument. First it's a "self-suporting" monocoque today it is a monocoque "frame". The uncomfortable moment with a rolling argument, like yours, is that you eventually trip over your own words. Today you did just that:

Orginal argument:

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The construction design of a "self-supporting monocoque" with plastic body panels had already been pioneered by General Motors

Today:

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So for the record I never wrote nor implied the following:
GM Fiero "pioneered" a self-supporting monocoque
GM Fiero "pioneered" a car with plastic body panels

Bad news for you on your new argument ("monocoque frame"), that's wrong too. Look to my previous post and you will find what you need there. Also, I'd like to help you and get you pointed in the right direction for Fiero data. Start with Pontiac Fiero Wiki - there you will find they boast about the Fiero, but the only "first" claim they give is that turd was the "first" mass-produced mid-engine, by a US manufacture.

Today's new claim:

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'll stop all the banter, so our fellow Fourm Members can start enjoying the Forum again. Hope you can too.

Days ago:You also made this claim several days ago.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'm done with responding to you; it really is a bore.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Clifton

What I enjoy is that with every post that I prove wrong, you respond with a new "spin" on your original argument. First it's a "self-suporting" monocoque today it is a monocoque "frame". The uncomfortable moment with a rolling argument, like yours, is that you eventually trip over your own words. Today you did just that:

Orginal argument:


Today:


Bad news for you on your new argument ("monocoque frame"), that's wrong too. Look to my previous post and you will find what you need there. Also, I'd like to help you and get you pointed in the right direction for Fiero data. Start with Pontiac Fiero Wiki - there you will find they boast about the Fiero, but the only "first" claim they give is that turd was the "first" mass-produced mid-engine, by a US manufacture.

Today's new claim:


Days ago:You also made this claim several days ago.

You are still separating the use of a monocoque frame and plastic body panels as two independent design (or use-of-materials) concepts. My point has been the COMBINED use of both the monocoque-frame concept AND no-load-plastic panels. I’ve never changed from that original discussion position; you’ve just tied to make it that way.

I'll type slowly so maybe you'll get it this time. My original point was the construction design (let's say methodology for clarity sake) of both the Z1 and the Fiero use a "self-supporting monocoque" (those are BMW's exact words not mine - Pontiac called it a "space-frame") chassis WITH (i.e. INCLUDED as part of the design) plastic body panels (with the significance of the plastic panels use being that the panels do not carry part of the load of the chassis as normal unit-construction [i.e. monocoque-body] chassis do) was pioneered by GM.

You keep separating the two technologies so as to try and win an argument with something I did not say, write , infer, or imply.

You point to the first-use of plastic as a body material with a Plexiglas covered Engineering display model - what a joke, and it was a GM anyway. That car was not a production automobile, not intended to be a production automobile, and was never sold to the public.

You point to Henry Ford's Soya Bean car, which was an engineering study and demonstration, and a car not produced nor sold to the public. And the real joke about your use of the Soya Bean car as an example, which you'd not understand since you’ve probably not read the book, Ford, The Men and Machine, is the plastics developed for producing a the car were to prove the use of the Soya Bean as a base material for plastics (rather than petroleum) so as to increase the need for Farmers to grow crops. The use of food produce to make industrial products was a movement of the 1930's called "Chemurgy". Go get the book and start reading on page 228 (I have the 1st edition published in 1986) so you’ll understand the purpose of Ford’s Soya Bean car. The Soya Bean car tried to pioneer the use of Soya Beans as a source for plastic, not pioneer the plastic car. Henry Ford's idea being a manufacturer could grow Soya Beans just out side its manufacturing plant and process the material on-site and turn the plastic into car parts.

You got close about the use of plastic body panels with the CRX and the BX, but both cars were contemporaries of the Fiero time-wise and neither had the body entirely made of plastic, nor were either monocoque-framed cars using plastic panels for the entire body (as the Z1 and Fiero do). By the time those two cars were released Pontiac was well into finalizing the Fiero for production and did not "copy" the use of plastic body panels from them. Just as both the 914 and X1/9, which neither being plastic-bodied and moncoque framed. Yes both were two-seat, mid engine designs, but alas I never claimed the Fiero pioneered that design (as you've tried to claim). Come to think of it, I’ve never heard of a 4-seat mid-engine design that was a mass-produced car; so maybe use of a mid-engine design just naturally lends itself to a 2-seat cockpit.

Stop making up arguments to just to win them (which you've yet to win anyway) and I'll stop responding.

[mike@Vossen]

Cool read thanks!!!!

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You are still separating the use of a monocoque frame and plastic body panels as two independent design (or use-of-materials) concepts. My point has been the COMBINED use of both the monocoque-frame concept AND no-load-plastic panels. I’ve never changed from that original discussion position; you’ve just tied to make it that way.

I'll type slowly so maybe you'll get it this time. My original point was the construction design (let's say methodology for clarity sake) of both the Z1 and the Fiero use a "self-supporting monocoque" (those are BMW's exact words not mine - Pontiac called it a "space-frame") chassis WITH (i.e. INCLUDED as part of the design) plastic body panels (with the significance of the plastic panels use being that the panels do not carry part of the load of the chassis as normal unit-construction [i.e. monocoque-body] chassis do) was pioneered by GM.

You keep separating the two technologies so as to try and win an argument with something I did not say, write , infer, or imply.

You point to the first-use of plastic as a body material with a Plexiglas covered Engineering display model - what a joke, and it was a GM anyway. That car was not a production automobile, not intended to be a production automobile, and was never sold to the public.

You point to Henry Ford's Soya Bean car, which was an engineering study and demonstration, and a car not produced nor sold to the public. And the real joke about your use of the Soya Bean car as an example, which you'd not understand since you’ve probably not read the book, Ford, The Men and Machine, is the plastics developed for producing a the car were to prove the use of the Soya Bean as a base material for plastics (rather than petroleum) so as to increase the need for Farmers to grow crops. The use of food produce to make industrial products was a movement of the 1930's called "Chemurgy". Go get the book and start reading on page 228 (I have the 1st edition published in 1986) so you’ll understand the purpose of Ford’s Soya Bean car. The Soya Bean car tried to pioneer the use of Soya Beans as a source for plastic, not pioneer the plastic car. Henry Ford's idea being a manufacturer could grow Soya Beans just out side its manufacturing plant and process the material on-site and turn the plastic into car parts.

You got close about the use of plastic body panels with the CRX and the BX, but both cars were contemporaries of the Fiero time-wise and neither had the body entirely made of plastic, nor were either monocoque-framed cars using plastic panels for the entire body (as the Z1 and Fiero do). By the time those two cars were released Pontiac was well into finalizing the Fiero for production and did not "copy" the use of plastic body panels from them. Just as both the 914 and X1/9, which neither being plastic-bodied and moncoque framed. Yes both were two-seat, mid engine designs, but alas I never claimed the Fiero pioneered that design (as you've tried to claim). Come to think of it, I’ve never heard of a 4-seat mid-engine design that was a mass-produced car; so maybe use of a mid-engine design just naturally lends itself to a 2-seat cockpit.

Stop making up arguments to just to win them (which you've yet to win anyway) and I'll stop responding.

Oh boy.....how many more conditional clauses are you going add to your "argument" *caugh caugh*. Perhaps if you say GM pioneered the monocoque "AND" "ALL" plastic panels "AND" Mid-engine "AND" made in the USA "AND" made in 1984 "AND" driven by Efthreeoh", you might be right. Probably not.

And here is another one of your fail boat gems:

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Second, you’re just plain wrong about the use of plastic panels in mass produced cars.

As stated before, Citroen BX, a family sedan and much of Europe had already adopted and were mass-producing plastic body panels well before that "innovative" (LOL!) Fiero.

Try and try as you might Efthreeoh, but Checkmate is checkmate.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Clifton

Oh boy.....how many more conditional clauses are you going add to your "argument" *caugh caugh*. Perhaps if you say GM pioneered the monocoque "AND" "ALL" plastic panels "AND" Mid-engine "AND" made in the USA "AND" made in 1984 "AND" driven by Efthreeoh", you might be right. Probably not.

And here is another one of your fail boat gems:


As stated before, Citroen BX, a family sedan and much of Europe had already adopted and were mass-producing plastic body panels well before that "innovative" (LOL!) Fiero.

Try and try as you might Efthreeoh, but Checkmate is checkmate.

Your original quote about the use of plastic panels:

Originally Posted by Clifton

Further, plastic body panels were already in use on cars well before the Fiero.

Really? Well before? A whole year before? Whew, that's a lot of time in car-years. As I previously stated the BX was a contemporary of the Fiero, not like it was in development 8 years before the Fiero as comparatively is the distance in time between the Z1 and the Fiero. The Fiero and BX were concurrent developments, where as the Z1 and Fiero were not.

Again, making up arguments just so you can pretend to win them.

BTW, the Soya Bean car reference really made me laugh. Thanks for that.

Ignore the facts if you like, fine by me. You still have not proven wrong my initial statement that the Fiero developed the concept of a self-supporting monocoque chassis with bolt-on, no-load-bearing plastic panels for the body over 8 years before BMW. I'm sure when the Z1 came out in 1989, the Fiero engineers, said "Been there, done that, have the coffee mug to prove it." By the time the Z1 was "announced" in August 1986 Pontiac had already sold almost 300,000 Fieros.

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Really? Well before? A whole year before? Whew, that's a lot of time in car-years. As I previously stated the BX was a contemporary of the Fiero, not like it was in development 8 years before the Fiero as comparatively is the distance in time between the Z1 and the Fiero. The Fiero and BX were concurrent developments, where as the Z1 and Fiero were not.

Again, making up arguments just so you can pretend to win them.

BTW, the Soya Bean car reference really made me laugh. Thanks for that.

Ignore the facts if you like, fine by me. You still have not proven wrong my initial statement that the Fiero developed the concept of a self-supporting monocoque chassis with bolt-on, no-load-bearing plastic panels for the body over 8 years before BMW. I'm sure when the Z1 came out in 1989, the Fiero engineers, said "Been there, done that, have the coffee mug to prove it." By the time the Z1 was "announced" in August 1986 Pontiac had already sold almost 300,000 Fieros.

Let's recap the wrongs
Your original argument which in no way is correct:

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The construction design of a "self-supporting monocoque" with plastic body panels had already been pioneered by General Motors

Then you compound your failed argument, by back pedaling and claiming you never said the above:

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So for the record I never wrote nor implied the following:
GM Fiero "pioneered" a self-supporting monocoque
GM Fiero "pioneered" a car with plastic body panels

Then you posted this gem where you knowingly tried to misrepresent the real story behind the "mystery fiero" photo. Very desperate and manufactured on your part.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So let's just examine this picture....... But we’d surely not think that maybe BMW was reverse engineering the Fiero; that would be blasphemy!

Next up, you claim that GM-Fiero "pioneered" plastic body panels and that no car other than the Feiro and excluding the Corvette, had mass produced plastic panels. Wrong - which I've documented the history and use of plastic panels above.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Second, you’re just plain wrong about the use of plastic panels in mass produced cars.

Then over and over you've said "I'm done", yet continue to post. You've yet to maintain that and now you've even modified your position on that.

Perhaps now would be a good time for you to create another one of your alias that you post under separately. Much like you've done in the past (aka Casper) where you come to your own aid with supporting posts in an effort to manage and correct all these rolling arguments you have going. That is just sad and embarrassing.

These checkmates are getting easier and easier.

[Efthreeoh]

Well, this is now bordering on the ridiculous so I'll have to slam it shut here. My original post was:

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Other than it being a roadster with doors that slid down into the frame what is unique about the car? The construction design of a "self-supporting monocoque" with plastic body panels had already been pioneered by General Motors and put into production with the 1984 Pontiac Fiero and continued in production well into the 1990's under the guize of Saturn cars.

I found this little gem yesterday. The day of the BMW press release Auto Week Magazine wrote this:

By: Davey G. Johnson

"Strange as it might seem, BMW cribbed one from General Motors' Pontiac Fiero playbook—the plastic body panels are all removable."

Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/2012...#ixzz1yskkU61S

So go have your argument with Auto Week Magazine. The writer Davey Johnson and I both understand engineering and automotive history; you apparently don't.

And learn the meaning of the word "with".

Hopefully you understand the term "cribbed". But just to save you some time: Cribbed - transitive and intransitive verb - to steal somebody's ideas or work.

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Well, this is now bordering on the ridiculous so I'll have to slam it shut here. My original post was:



I found this little gem yesterday. The day of the BMW press release Auto Week Magazine wrote this:

By: Davey G. Johnson

"Strange as it might seem, BMW cribbed one from General Motors' Pontiac Fiero playbook—the plastic body panels are all removable."

Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/2012...#ixzz1yskkU61S

So go have your argument with Auto Week Magazine. The writer Davey Johnson and I both understand engineering and automotive history; you apparently don't.

And learn the meaning of the word "with".

Hopefully you understand the term "cribbed". But just to save you some time: Cribbed - transitive and intransitive verb - to steal somebody's ideas or work.

It seems very apparent that with all those ruffled feathers of yours floating around that confined coop, you've missed some key points already made in this thread.

1934: Citroën (and Chrysler) "pioneers" the FIRST mass-produced self-supporting monocoque vehicles.

1955-1975: Citroën produces the DS 19, a self-supporting monocoque available with a plastic roof.

1982: Citroën launches the BX, a self-supporting monocoque with extensive use of plastic body panels (bonnet, tailgate, bumpers). Citroën sells 2,315,739 units.

1984: GM/Pontiac launches the Fiero, a turd on wheel that "cribbed" the idea to use a monocoque with plastic body panels from other manufactures. GM sells 370,168 units - whoop-dee-doo

Now, let's compare the above history with your original unmodified BOLD claim:

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The construction design of a "self-supporting monocoque" with plastic body panels had already been pioneered by General Motors

Whomp, whomp, whahhhh - WRONG!

As I said before, GM was not the pioneer and flaming the Z1 for "cribbing" ideas can directly be applied to the Fiero as well. Which once again means your argument is false and has no legs to stand on.

Checkmate, again....


The Eftreeoh challenge: Instead of perpetuating and adding conditions to your original argument, how about actually providing facts to your claim that with the Fiero, GM truly "pioneered" (as in was the first) "self-supporting monocoque" with plastic body panels.