[Mbbrewer]

Originally Posted by Pig Farmer

Same shop?

Yes

[to_riffic]

BMW.....just don't get a MINI. What a money pit it has been. Modding is one thing, but when things break, it adds up pretty quickly...lol

[German1967]

Just two data points - not more, not less:

2015 M235i: stranded within two weeks of ownership. Faulty sensor causing limp mode. Sensor cannot be identified. Software reload solves the issue - for now.

2016 X3 2.8: At 5,000 miles oil filter seal leaking oil under pressure causing burned oil on engine block. 2 days in the shop awaiting replacement part.

The problem is not, if any of this is covered under warranty but the inconvenience and time wasted of having the car inspected and repaired.

[rcl]

Originally Posted by DUI Elite

I'll venture to guess the people who claim the BMWs aren't reliable - don't maintain their cars lol.

That's stupid.

I've maintained my BMW well above and beyond what BMW says to do, and things like VC gasket and water pumps shouldn't be going out at 60-70k miles. It's just poor quality and poor design, and there is nothing luxury about these cars.

[Kracken]

I think people trash the reliability of these cars because it's a fact, plain & simple. Reading this thread is proof. I'm off loading my 135 very soon because of all this. Just over 40k miles and I don't even have the confidence in a long road trip. Just not right for the $$ these cost.

[sixburgh]

Keep your car, love your car. Could it have been that the person was boasting that "her dog was bigger than your dog?"
You have a B-M-W. You have a piece of history, a 1 series, a 128i.

You are one of the lucky ones, you have a car that you seem to like and want to keep. If you can, go to another barbershop for a better place of therapy.

In all of the seven BMW's I have had (see my sig), I have found them all to be reliable under my ownership. The piece of mind I had was the passive safety, BMW engineering and car design (looks) that is timeless. That was (is), worth more than the cost of BMW ownership.

[Sephiroth]

I buy into the notion that BMWs are maintenance intensive, especially the M cars, and this lack of maintenance leads to low reliability. It is all about cost/benefit, and some of the older BMWs are worth it. Jury is still out on all these new turbo cars in my useless opinion.

[thenew3]

My last BMW was a 1999 E46 328i. It was ordered in the fall of 98 so it was an early production run of a first year new model. Typically expect more problems with first year production.

I drove that thing hard to 175k miles without much problem. Just typical maintenance issues. Oil changed every 15k to 18k miles per the OBC. We only got rid of it at 175k because we were having a baby and the 328i couldn't fit the baby stroller in the small trunk.

I'm hoping the new 2016 X3 we're about to pickup this evening will provide us with just as good reliability.

All of our cars over the last 20 years have been german cars and all have been very reliable.

[MKSixer]

I find this interesting because I cannot think of a place more unsuitable to get car advice than from two women sitting in a barber shop.

I have only owned 6 BMWs and I have found them to be pretty reliable. My M6 has only left me completely stranded 2 times and that actually necessitated an engine replacement due to the rod bearing issue and the other time was for an SMG pump replacement.

The 2, 5 Series were fantastic with the first one being a true representative of the BMW performance ethos while the second just had no joy about it. It was really amazing that two nearly identical cars drove so differently.

Now, the E63 M6...OMG! To quote Jezza, 'It's like stepping on a bomb!' If ever there was a car that enjoyed being exactly what it was meant to be, it is that car. It makes no apologies for being a complicated machine that does exactly what it is supposed to do. A ham-fisted driver will get more negative feedback from the SMG as well as risk a snap spin of the car if pushing really hard. If you can't handle it, look elsewhere. Perhaps that nice 650 will be a better choice for you?

The 328d? 31K miles with only one niggling problem...the horn does not blow full strength all the time. Annoying, yes. Debilitating, no. Oh, and don't forget 36 mpg in town and 50 mpg on the highway. (My real world numbers.)

The much misunderstood i8? I jumped in it and drove 1000 miles without a second thought. I have exactly no Ferrari or Lambo owning friends who would do that. None. Zero.

BMW makes a great line of cars that are extremely versatile and yes...reliable. Please put them in their proper context. The SMG/DCT pump replacement for my buddy's Ferrari was far north of $5k...for my M6, covered by warranty. Similar performance totally different outcome in pricing and reliability.

Comparing BMWs to Hondas and Nissans is ludicrous. All of my MBZ owning friends complain that they cannot leave their $tealership for less than $500-750 per pop on maintenance. I would not trade any of my BMWs for this nightmare.

Cheers-mk

[atomic]

I had a Z3 that I bought new. I must have been to the dealer 20 times for repairs under warranty. My current BMW zero problems. I would be hesitant to buy a South Carolinian built BMW again. German built ones I would buy again.

[Efthreeoh]

I think comparing BMWs to Hondas (Acura) and Nissans (Infinity) and Toyota (Lexus) is a totally legitimate discussion. All these cars are mass-production, assembly-line automobiles, built with world-wide sourced parts from automotive industry suppliers on a lowest component price basis. The build quality between the parent company and luxury brand is negligible. The major components underneath the skin are the same. The steel and aluminum alloys used to make the parts are the same. The parts are built on the same production tooling. The process control used to build the brands (and parts) are the same. The Japanese are better at the engineering of building cars than the Germans.

The JD quality rankings have more to do with the HMI interface and perception of quality.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I think comparing BMWs to Hondas (Acura) and Nissans (Infinity) and Toyota (Lexus) is a totally legitimate discussion. All these cars are mass-production, assembly-line automobiles, built with world-wide sourced parts from automotive industry suppliers on a lowest component price basis. The build quality between the parent company and luxury brand is negligible. The major components underneath the skin are the same. The steel and aluminum alloys used to make the parts are the same. The parts are built on the same production tooling. The process control used to build the brands (and parts) are the same. The Japanese are better at the engineering of building cars than the Germans.

The JD quality rankings have more to do with the HMI interface and perception of quality.

Lol.

Come to my home, close your eyes, pick a BMW and I will pick the Japanese brand that is comparable to that vehicle. We will go to the track and do 10 hard laps. I will leave the rest for you to see yourself. (A friend with a NISMO Z was very unpleasantly surprised when he ran out of brakes (stock) after about 8 laps. Typical.

Drive the average Japanese car at 120 mph then almost any 3-Series. No contest.

IDC about how the car performs in the lower 50% of it's performance window. That's not where I live. I care about the last 5%. I just drove my E63 for about 40 miles, arriving at home just before I grabbed my computer and typed this. It took about 5 miles to get everything to proper operating temperature and I lashed it thereafter. I kept it between 6K RPM and 8,250 RPM at every opportunity. The car wanted more. If I did that to say, the V8 Lexus RS, I'm certain that I would have a different outcome. Look at the brakes...they are a joke. A beautiful car but made in a nation with a national speed limit under 60 mph.

I've owned 2 Japanese cars: Honda Accord with the Vtec engine (fantastic engine) and an Acura Legend LS (again, fantastic engine). Both very quick but numb and lacking the joy that each of my German cars have had, save one(the 528i).

If I have to put my family in cars, and I do, I put them in German cars. We each have our choices and that is mine.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Lol.

Come to my home, close your eyes, pick a BMW and I will pick the Japanese brand that is comparable to that vehicle. We will go to the track and do 10 hard laps. I will leave the rest for you to see yourself. (A friend with a NISMO Z was very unpleasantly surprised when he ran out of brakes (stock) after about 8 laps. Typical.

Drive the average Japanese car at 120 mph then almost any 3-Series. No contest.

IDC about how the car performs in the lower 50% of it's performance window. That's not where I live. I care about the last 5%. I just drove my E63 for about 40 miles, arriving at home just before I grabbed my computer and typed this. It took about 5 miles to get everything to proper operating temperature and I lashed it thereafter. I kept it between 6K RPM and 8,250 RPM at every opportunity. The car wanted more. If I did that to say, the V8 Lexus RS, I'm certain that I would have a different outcome. Look at the brakes...they are a joke. A beautiful car but made in a nation with a national speed limit under 60 mph.

I've owned 2 Japanese cars: Honda Accord with the Vtec engine (fantastic engine) and an Acura Legend LS (again, fantastic engine). Both very quick but numb and lacking the joy that each of my German cars have had, save one(the 528i).

If I have to put my family in cars, and I do, I put them in German cars. We each have our choices and that is mine.

Wife and I ran a '89 BMW E30 325i and a '89 Acura Integra concurrently from March 1989 through March 1997. I did the maintenance and repair on both cars. The Acura broke far less often and was far less expensive to maintain. I ran both cars hard as shit too. The Acura could hang with the BMW, and considering it was half the price it was quite impressive. The Acura accumulated miles far more rapidly than the BMW and we ran it until 230,000. By the time the Acura reached 230K the BMW was at about 125K. I ran the E30 then to 256K by 2006. The BMW was by far the nicer car to drive obviously, but the Acura living at 8/10ths and 9/10s most of it life was quite stout and took less care and feeding than the E30. The E30 is considered in BMWs standards to be the tank of BMWs. The Z3 my wife bought to replace the E30 was far more problematic than the E30 and way far more problematic than the Integra ever was. The Z3 is by far the poorest constructed car I have owned.

Most people who buy cars drive them normally and the Japanese car will cost less to own, which is why it is a fair comparison to consider both when evaluating reliability between brands.

I never raced a Lambo or F-car with any of my cars so I can't comment on that. I did use to blow the doors off of P-cars all the time with my Red White and Blue 1990 CBR 1000. For some reason P-car folks just always wanted to race it for some reason I've, to this day, never understood.

Cheers

[Efthreeoh]

And the CBR never broke.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The Z3 my wife bought to replace the E30 was far more problematic than the E30 and way far more problematic than the Integra ever was. The Z3 is by far the poorest constructed car I have owned.

Just shows that experiences vary. We have had two Z3s - a 1997 2.8 and a 2001 3.0. Ordered the 2001 in October 2000 and took delivery in December. It has been a great car and we still have it. We have replaced the top once and just had to have the A/C fixed, but that has been the only things in 15 years

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

Jus shows that experiences vary. We have had two Z3s - a 1997 2.8 and a 2001 3.0. Ordered the 2001 in October 2000 and took delivery in December. It has been a great car and we still have it. We have replaced the top once and just had to have the A/C fixed, but that has been the only things in 15 years

Indeed.

To be honest, the X5 3.5 has actually been in the shop more than the M6. It calls SkyNet to be brought into the dealership for non-standard service more than any of the other 3 BMWs we own. Further, the build quality is a bit disappointing with the white labeling wearing off the PDC button as well as a few others.

Cheers-mk

[John_01]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

I find this interesting because I cannot think of a place more unsuitable to get car advice than from two women sitting in a barber shop.

Its simply about the widely held perception that BMWs are not reliable and expensive to maintain. Quite often women don't share the same ego factor / brand alliance and prejudices that men hold in connection to their cars. More likely they are talking about it from practical experience of being stranded without their vehicle and exorbitant costs they were charged to get it fixed.

I would say that BMWs are normally reliable as new cars while in the warranty period. Its when you pick up a reasonably price second hand example that you can come into some expensive problems. Not everyone is knowledgeable about buying second hand cars and related servicing issues.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

Just shows that experiences vary. We have had two Z3s - a 1997 2.8 and a 2001 3.0. Ordered the 2001 in October 2000 and took delivery in December. It has been a great car and we still have it. We have replaced the top once and just had to have the A/C fixed, but that has been the only things in 15 years

So the common problems with the Z3 are worn out seat bushings that allow the seats to rock in their tracks (there is an aftermarket fix for it with DELRIN bushings developed and sold by a private individual - indicating how common the problem was). The window slider guide bushings wear out and bind to the point where the steel window guides break. The M44 develops OFHG and timing case cover leaks. The M44 loses the cam timing sensor every 7 years or so. The original plastic water pump impellers fail. The headlight lenses glaze over.

As in all BMWs of the '80s and '90s the cassette radios die. The latch for the glove box was a joke; all plastic. It broke due to the weight of the knee absorber built into the glovebox shell. I had to fabricate a steel plate to fix the latch and remove the knee aborber to keep the entire plastic dash substructure from failing. None of these issues has anything to do with how the car was driven nor keeping up with the scheduled maintenance, and have all to do with engineering and build quality. The Z3 was a cobbled-together amalgamation of an E36 front suspension mated to a E30 rear suspension and a rushed design so as to capture some of the early '90s revived roadster market created by Mazda's Miata.

Good that your experiences were better than mine. All that said, my wife loves her Z3 and it keeps me busy making it safe and reliable for her to drive. Now if I could only find a fix for the right-side window power function...

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by John_01

Its simply about the widely held perception that BMWs are not reliable and expensive to maintain. Quite often women don't share the same ego factor / brand alliance and prejudices that men hold in connection to their cars. More likely they are talking about it from practical experience of being stranded without their vehicle and exorbitant costs they were charged to get it fixed.

I would say that BMWs are normally reliable as new cars while in the warranty period. Its when you pick up a reasonably price second hand example that you can come into some expensive problems. Not everyone is knowledgeable about buying second hand cars and related servicing issues.

The antithesis of objective reality.

We are unreliable witnesses and tend to magnify both positive and negative attributes in any situation. Additionally, we tend to treat the exception as the rule. When peeled back with skillful questioning, along with properly collected and interpreted data, perceptions can usually be debunked.

Cheers-mk

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

The antithesis of objective reality.

We are unreliable witnesses and tend to magnify both positive and negative attributes in any situation. Additionally, we tend to treat the exception as the rule. When peeled back with skillful questioning, along with properly collected and interpreted data, perceptions can usually be debunked.

Cheers-mk

My observation from over here in the UK, there is almost some sort of distorted satisfaction when an owner of a BMW has some issue with his/her car. Almost a "you are paying more for less" type view.

We don't typically hear comments about a Ford having some sort of problem, folks will even joke about them, as F.O.R.D equates to Fix Or Repair Daily. A BMW, that's different, I guess envy has a part to play.

Over here the Fleet reviews (FleetNews) see BMW as at the top of the heap most years. Fleet managers don't pull any punches, but do rate value for money and reliability. I suggest a more objective viewpoint.

http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/manu...-in-fn50-study

The BMW 3 Series once again demonstrated best performance among the car models, while the 5 Series and 1 Series also secured top 10 places.

BMW retained its number one status in the manufacturer table, ahead of Audi and Mercedes-Benz.

Richard Hudson, sales director at BMW Group, said: “BMW is renowned for producing award-winning cars, but when the sample size is a car parc of 650,000 vehicles and we come out on top it is especially satisfying.

“To be honoured as the most reliable car among contract hire companies and the most reliable brand in the overall survey is a fantastic result and underscores the expertise of our renowned engineers in developing class-leading products.”

HighlandPete

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

The antithesis of objective reality.

We are unreliable witnesses and tend to magnify both positive and negative attributes in any situation. Additionally, we tend to treat the exception as the rule. When peeled back with skillful questioning, along with properly collected and interpreted data, perceptions can usually be debunked.

Cheers-mk

This is really true on car forums

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

My observation from over here in the UK, there is almost some sort of distorted satisfaction when an owner of a BMW has some issue with his/her car. Almost a "you are paying more for less" type view.

We don't typically hear comments about a Ford having some sort of problem, folks will even joke about them, as F.O.R.D equates to Fix Or Repair Daily. A BMW, that's different, I guess envy has a part to play.

Over here the Fleet reviews (FleetNews) see BMW as at the top of the heap most years. Fleet managers don't pull any punches, but do rate value for money and reliability. I suggest a more objective viewpoint.

http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/manu...-in-fn50-study



HighlandPete

Ahhhhhhhhh...data from an objective source.

Beats the crap out of a couple of ladies delivering barbershop blather.
Many thanks HighlandPete!
Cheers-mk

P.S. As a fleet car driver for 16 years I can state that this information clearly takes into account the fact that typically fleet maintenance is performed more stringently than a non-enthusiast owner might perform. Fleet managers have ZERO sense of humor about not hitting their numbers. They want no outliers in the maintenance of their charges. As a field manager, I would get copies of the nastygrams that were sent to the noncompliant reps...not nice.