[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by bavarianboar

I don’t disagree with you.

It’s also not black and white (unfortunately). I can acknowledge and yet disagree with the poster’s comment above. The spirit of the discussion is lost with such comments.

The sales numbers are the only metric people seem to use and stop right there. But question remains - do even the real informed buyers/enthusiasts have other choices? Taking for example the M3 like other posters pointed out in the thread here, not thrilled but people still buy/lease it for lack of “comparable” options.

Also taking M3 sales numbers, I m not quite following what does an average “non-enthusiast” M3 buyer look like who doesn’t order their car or hunts for a deal instead to make a compromise, I have not met one. Granted average BMW buyer has marginal representation on these forums here but is way more in tune than the older generations.

It’s not hard to see Dukec’s Instagram account show up if you have any interest in BMW as a casual potential buyer, thanks to recommender systems algorithms. We all know masses can comment without following any accounts.

Buyers are more informed and care, leasehackr forum’s exponential use should be another clear example in front of us. Atleast they care what their $ buys them.

Reliability has gone up significantly which is another point in BMW’s favor that few people talk about. Is that driving the sales numbers up?

I’ll stop here.

Its most convenient to disregard critical assessments by forum members in a thread that’s build exactly for that - saying they only represent a small fraction of the customer base. [...]

There are always choices and options. Nobody is forced to buy anything and surely one doesn’t need a six-figure car (…or nearly six-figure car). Not happy with BMW? There’s the Blackwing, for example. If you don’t want a manual, there are even more options. My only point is, if someone isn’t happy with a manufacturer’s design direction, buying the car(s) anyway isn’t sending the right message.

Anecdotally, I have never met an ///M driver in the real world who was on forums or who had even heard of E46Fanatics, Bimmerpost, etc. (…outside of BMW events or enthusiasts events)……and I purposely ask every one of them I come into contact with. They are regular people who just wanted whatever was BMW’s top shelf performance offering. They weren’t diehards. They didn’t order their cars. They didn’t even necessarily hunt for deals as many are happy to detail the ADM they paid in addition to the price of their cars. The same applies to Porsche drivers and RennList. I mean, who hasn’t heard of RennList, right?!? Well I have yet to come across a 911 driver who ventures onto that site either. I spend my entire shift - 16 hours a day - in a black and white, driving around communities and talking to every perceived enthusiast I can find here in So.Cal. After all, I’m a car guy so I enjoy talking to car people. We all know forums represent and/or encompass a very small percentage of actual buyers, but it always surprises me when arguably the two largest forums for BMW and Porsche aren’t even on the average buyer’s radar.

I wasn’t disregarding the critical assessment in the manner you interpreted, but I was offering perspective to temper that assessment because “we” are not exactly who businesses build cars for. Building them how some of us would prefer would result in poor overall sales. Very few people who are self-proclaimed purists are actually that which they align with. I don’t see very many low-optioned, built for the thrill of the drive builds. Majority of these builds check nearly every box; nearly every creature comfort. Purists they/we are not.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by David1

Can we bring back the BMW folks that went over Kia/Genesis..

… Karim Habib went to Infiniti and then they embarrassed the hell out of him

And now he’s the design chief of Kia, Genesis, and Hyundai

And deservingly as he’s so so talented

[monkeyman8]

Originally Posted by GuyOh

I’m so happy Domagoj Dukec is leaving BMW. RIP rolls royce…

I just hope the new team respects the holfmeister kink, go back to the “angel eyes”, and no more vertical beaver buck tooth grills.

Also hope the new x3 is the only odd model with a “cheap” interior and hopefully lci can fix the interior a bit.

I’m hoping the design team can be more like Porsche. Design cars that look more traditional yet modern and sporty.

#MakeBMWgreatagain

My great fear is the new 3 will most likely mirror the X3. This will be the last great 3.

[bavarianboar]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

There are always choices and options. Nobody is forced to buy anything and surely one doesn’t need a six-figure car (…or nearly six-figure car). Not happy with BMW? There’s the Blackwing, for example. If you don’t want a manual, there are even more options. My only point is, if someone isn’t happy with a manufacturer’s design direction, buying the car(s) anyway isn’t sending the right message.

Anecdotally, I have never met an ///M driver in the real world who was on forums or who had even heard of E46Fanatics, Bimmerpost, etc. (…outside of BMW events or enthusiasts events)……and I purposely ask every one of them I come into contact with. They are regular people who just wanted whatever was BMW’s top shelf performance offering. They weren’t diehards. They didn’t order their cars. They didn’t even necessarily hunt for deals as many are happy to detail the ADM they paid in addition to the price of their cars. The same applies to Porsche drivers and RennList. I mean, who hasn’t heard of RennList, right?!? Well I have yet to come across a 911 driver who ventures onto that site either. I spend my entire shift - 16 hours a day - in a black and white, driving around communities and talking to every perceived enthusiast I can find here in So.Cal. After all, I’m a car guy so I enjoy talking to car people. We all know forums represent and/or encompass a very small percentage of actual buyers, but it always surprises me when arguably the two largest forums for BMW and Porsche aren’t even on the average buyer’s radar.

I wasn’t disregarding [...]

Yes you have great points. And I am aware of what you say, and yeah in that case even those so called mild car enthusiasts with the money are buying whatever is available for brand name/model not really having the time to be on forums or look for deals.

All in all I am not disagreeing with you, although then - both camps - ones justifying or criticizing the design direction (the ones like me) are missing the whole point of what drives the sales. Rude awakening and the reaction to this thread/ new post then also seems very insignificant. I appreciate your perspectives and sharing the anecdotes.

Sales numbers we could say have no correlation to the design direction. It’s the novelty that probably drives sales up.

Dropping this though, and I am sure this will sell well in the Chinese market it’s made for, and also elsewhere. After all it has the BMW logo and the ///M emblem.

[Fugly M3]

Not a single one of those names - I looked, Missoni is the child of Austrian architects - is Italian. Hire a couple of chain-smoking Italian designers, give them unlimited Espresso and tell them they can use the focus group reports as toilet paper. Brand's design troubles will be solved in days.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by bavarianboar

Yes you have great points. And I am aware of what you say, and yeah in that case even those so called mild car enthusiasts with the money are buying whatever is available for brand name/model not really having the time to be on forums or look for deals.

All in all I am not disagreeing with you, although then - both camps - ones justifying or criticizing the design direction (the ones like me) are missing the whole point of what drives the sales. Rude awakening and the reaction to this thread/ new post then also seems very insignificant. I appreciate your perspectives and sharing the anecdotes.

Sales numbers we could say have no correlation to the design direction. It’s the novelty that probably drives sales up.

Dropping this though, and I am sure this will sell well in the Chinese market it’s made for, and also elsewhere. After all it has the BMW logo and the ///M emblem.

You and I are on the same side of the same coin. In the 23-years I’ve been in the BMW community, some products have resonated with me while others did not. When BMW started putting ///M logos on everything it bothered me a little as I felt it diminished whatever ///M3 or ///M4 I was driving at the time, but I accepted it was more of a money grab than an ode to the enthusiast and that business must prevail in the end. Thanks for your perspectives as well. This type of discourse is what makes forums great for people passionate about cars.




….and about that car you posted, you’re right! It’ll sell simply because it has a Roundel. Sometimes I wish I could have a heart-to-heart with the people making the decisions just to get a glimpse into their line of thinking. I know they aren’t idiots and A LOT of analysis goes into forecasting.

[My M3]

Surely, we can all have an opinion without someone saying it is stupid. We can only relate to what is happening where we live.
If you want to talk about interest rates etc that's fine as USA is lower than AU.
If you want to know about economics & pricing an M3 Comp X Drive in AU is over $200,000.00.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by My M3

Surely, we can all have an opinion without someone saying it is stupid. We can only relate to what is happening where we live.
If you want to talk about interest rates etc that's fine as USA is lower than AU.
If you want to know about economics & pricing an M3 Comp X Drive in AU is over $200,000.00.

never understood that tax structure! complete non sense for greedy govt. why are you folks ok paying that??

[White340]

Originally Posted by BLKM

Hmmm, I sold a Jag F Type for the M2 because of the design…. and manual … absolutely love this G87 design!

Each to the own

Indeed, if you like it I’m happy for you!

There is a thread full of people who hate it unfortunately. This is a customer base they missed.

[UtahBimmerBoy]

Originally Posted by R N M

Just because a car sells well doesn’t mean it looks good.

M3/4 has almost no competition from MB, Audi Lexus etc.
Previous generations had much stronger competition when MB had C63 with V8, Audi had RS5 with V8 etc.

M3/4 is the only game in town especially if you want a Manual transmission.

I personally have not purchased new one largely due to the grill but I’m lucky to have F80. If i didn’t then I would definitely buy G80 even though i hate the grill.

Actually, I would say a large majority of my M buyers have bought the G8X platform purely based off its look.

People like the G8X look because it carries road presence and aggressiveness that other brands cant supply. People are getting bored of the soft lines of MB and dull interiors of Audi, it's why BMW is the highest selling Luxury brand.

I've upgraded plenty of F-Chassis M drivers to G8X's, all of them happy.

[Teutonic]

They will go down in history as the most damaging team. As long as "Damage" Dukec remains involved, everything is lost.

Rolls Royce is his next target...

They have literally destroyed the brand. I bought my still-good-looking BMWs in 2021, but since then, I have also purchased two cars from a different brand after decades of only driving BMWs.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

They will go down in history as the most damaging team. As long as "Damage" Dukec remains involved, everything is lost.

Rolls Royce is his next target...

They have literally destroyed the brand. I bought my still-good-looking BMWs in 2021, but since then, I have also purchased two cars from a different brand after decades of only driving BMWs.

Damaging based on whose assessment?

[PNWM3]

Originally Posted by Hit_Apex

Such weird, emotional reaction to a fairly routine corporate restructuring. Guy responsible for the grill - seems like a promotion to RR and the beginning of succession planning for Hooydonk. G8x still on track to outsell previous generations despite a vocal minority who largely cling to old models cause BMW destroyed itself, lost its way, etc. It shows a little controversy keeps designs from getting boring and BMW is willing to take risks while pushing M performance to consistently higher levels.

Number don’t lie and the vocal minority is not worth paying attention to. Good on BMW for ignoring the Make BMW Great Again crowd and doing fresh modern designs that are challenging at first but make the older iterations look old which drives sales.

[bavarianboar]

Originally Posted by PNWM3

Number don’t lie and the vocal minority is not worth paying attention to. Good on BMW for ignoring the Make BMW Great Again crowd and doing fresh modern designs that are challenging at first but make the older iterations look old which drives sales.

BMW brand, marketing, fed up Tesla customers (review the i4 sales), and the (lack of) other comparable options drive sales.

What you call modern designs is boneheaded ridiculous design to others and it doesn’t solely drive sales. Remove hofmeister kink, add boomerangs all on the inside (new X3), missing back row ambient lighting, plain Jane door trims in the G60, slap a tacky big 5 label on both sides, sparkly ///M-logos, the list is (fairly) long.

In god we trust, everyone else brings Data and Correlation as proof. Write us a financial analysis paper please with your facts exactly how design is driving the sales numbers up. Or it’s just another pure lazy speculation.

[TX552]

Fire them all

[Xtabi]

They are overthinking it with all of these words.

THE CONSUMERS DON'T WANT UGLY BEAVER LOOKING/BUCKTOOTH/STERILE/EMOTIONLESS/CHEAP INTERIOR LOOKING VEHICLES.

There I completed the research for you. Now go execute.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by LuckyL

Lastly, 95%+ of all electricity is not sourced sustainably (i.e. solar, wind, etc.) so I don’t buy the “it’s better for the environment” aurgument until we see a massive shift in how we source energy.

Well, you don't "buy" science, so I don't think you're persuadable on any topic. Even if your electricity comes completely from coal, EVs are still way more efficient and way better for environment, which is easily demonstrable if you're decently versed about your resources. (E.g. no Breitbart, no Facebook posts, yes Scientific American) I love an inline 6, a V8 as you can see in my car history. But facts are facts.

But, when it comes to design, it's not about sitting and drawing something pretty on a desk. Some cars, need to be boring because their purpose is to disappear in your life - that's why more reliable cars are purposefully more boring design-wise because they're so reliable that they become an integral part of your life, so they shouldn't be memorable - when you think of your Lexus you should say to your self: "Oh yeah, my car has been so steady and reliable never even thought about it for a while". At least that's the purpose. Some cars, need to be ugly, so that they attract negative attention which is the strongest kind of attention, or people could love it just because it's ugly, because of the same reason everybody love the elephant man (This argument is actually copied from James May). Some cars, need to look 'wild' and 'bold' because they are confident: They know they already have an audience they know they're already better so now they want to attract different niches, and deliver more character, more differentiation. A bold look a different look emphasizes confidence and differentiation. (This is BMW, btw)
Some cars need to be pretty because that's their main thing, and can't really compete on anything else: like most Italians.(Maserati, Fiat) Some cars, like most early electric cars can look very futuristic, because target market is not conservatives who're attached to old ways - they're progressives who want to be better for environment but also who want to feel like they're driving something from the future.

Designers only deliver what needs to be delivered in their time. They ALL know how to design a car that would be very pretty, or mean, or futuristic, or bold. It's their expertise. They ALL know better than you, or the haters here. They went to school for this, they're at the PEAK of their career, and they're working for one of the most influential car companies in the world.

So having Volvo designer working for BMW doesn't mean BMWs will look like Volvo, because BMW has a different market, different target demographics, different strategies. And there are only couple of objective ways to measure success in design: Impact (buzz) and sales. Which means: BMW's design team for the last 5 years or so, is the most successful ever, in BMW history. BMW has never been this comfortably ahead of its competitors in terms of sales and buzz, ever. Not in the E39 and E46 era, not in the E92 and E60 era, not in the F30 and F10 era, not ever.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

Well, you don't "buy" science, so I don't think you're persuadable on any topic. Even if your electricity comes completely from coal, EVs are still way more efficient and way better for environment, which is easily demonstrable if you're decently versed about your resources. (E.g. no Breitbart, no Facebook posts, yes Scientific American) I love an inline 6, a V8 as you can see in my car history. But facts are facts.

But, when it comes to design, it's not about sitting and drawing something pretty on a desk. Some cars, need to be boring because their purpose is to disappear in your life - that's why more reliable cars are purposefully more boring design-wise because they're so reliable that they become an integral part of your life, so they shouldn't be memorable - when you think of your Lexus you should say to your self: "Oh yeah, my car has been so steady and reliable never even thought about it for a while". At least that's the purpose. Some cars, need to be ugly, so that they attract negative attention which is the strongest kind of attention, or people could love it just because it's ugly, because of the same reason everybody love the elephant man (This argument is actually copied from James May). Some cars, need to look 'wild' and 'bold' because they are confident: They know they already have an audience they know they're already better so now they want to attract different niches, and deliver more character, more differentiation. A bold look a different look emphasizes confidence and differentiation. (This is BMW, btw)
Some cars need to be pretty because that's their main thing, and can't really compete on anything else: like most Italians.(Maserati, Fiat) Some cars, like most early electric cars can look very futuristic, because target market is not conservatives who're attached to old ways - they're progressives who want to be better for environment but also who want to feel like they're driving something from the future.

Designers only deliver what needs to be delivered in their time. They ALL know how to design a car that would be very pretty, or mean, or futuristic, or bold. It's their expertise. They ALL know better than you, or the haters here. They went to school for this, they're at the PEAK of their career, and they're working for one of the most influential car companies in the world.

So having Volvo designer working for BMW doesn't mean BMWs will look like Volvo, because BMW has a different market, different target demographics, different strategies. And there are only couple of objective ways to measure success in design: Impact (buzz) and sales. Which means: BMW's design team for the last 5 years or so, is the most successful ever, in BMW history. BMW has never been this comfortably ahead of its competitors in terms of sales and buzz, ever. Not in the E39 and E46 era, not in the E92 and E60 era, not in the F30 and F10 era, not ever.

Is not science. Is geopolitics and economic and (socio)-politic interests. Money making and crowd control. Read more.
No, they are not more efficient. diesel is still the most efficient. And BMW, Mercedes, Siemens and Bosch worked on a very clean one but nobody cares. Anyway, many manufacturers are slowly realizing that electric is not the answer...
Also, the lithium extractions sites are forever lost and destroyed, leaving a irreparable scar on the surface of the earth. While any oil extraction site can be reforested and given back to the nature if desired.

And no, designers do not know. they try. Some are successful, some or not. Automobile history is full of fiasco stories in term of design, hence the designers do not own the crystal ball.
Is just a presumption of knowing.
BMW is still selling right now ONLY because of its engineering.
The way they dressed the vehicles today is appalling.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

Is not science. Is geopolitics and economic and (socio)-politic interests. Money making and crowd control. Read more.
No, they are not more efficient. diesel is still the most efficient. And BMW, Mercedes, Siemens and Bosch worked on a very clean one but nobody cares. Anyway, many manufacturers are slowly realizing that electric is not the answer...
Also, the lithium extractions sites are forever lost and destroyed, leaving a irreparable scar on the surface of the earth. While any oil extraction site can be reforested and given back to the nature if desired.

And no, designers do not know. they try. Some are successful, some or not. Automobile history is full of fiasco stories in term of design, hence the designers do not own the crystal ball.
Is just a presumption of knowing.
BMW is still selling right now ONLY because of its engineering.
The way they dressed the vehicles today is appalling.

Nope, EVs are more efficient, it's measurable, and you're very wrong about this - a victim of 'making money and crowd control'. You probably shut off all the real resources/real science (linked below) and you're all-in with bogus BS science. 'Making money and crowd control' is fossil fuel industry agenda, their lobbyists' policy is literally written down as 'Creating confusion around fossil fuel usage and climate change'. And it's not the agenda of the Global Science community - including those from oil-producing countries.

Also, no, BMW is not selling only because of its engineering. Most buyers aren't even aware of its 'engineering', and once again, this is arrogant and egocentric; you don't like the design so nobody likes it, right?

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...-vehicle-myths
https://climate.mit.edu/explainers/electric-vehicles
https://www.carbonbrief.org/factchec...limate-change/
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ons-over-time/

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

Nope, EVs are more efficient, it's measurable, and you're very wrong about this - a victim of 'making money and crowd control'. You probably shut off all the real resources/real science (linked below) and you're all-in with bogus BS science. 'Making money and crowd control' is fossil fuel industry agenda, their lobbyists' policy is literally written down as 'Creating confusion around fossil fuel usage and climate change'. And it's not the agenda of the Global Science community - including those from oil-producing countries.

Also, no, BMW is not selling only because of its engineering. Most buyers aren't even aware of its 'engineering', and once again, this is arrogant and egocentric; you don't like the design so nobody likes it, right?

Sorry, there is no need to have a condescending attitude and use a trivial language.
I think that the ignorance lays in your side. However, I have no intent in educating you in the matter.
No, I don't like the design is repugnant to me. But if you like it, good for you.
Case closed.

[bavarianboar]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

Nope, EVs are more efficient, it's measurable, and you're very wrong about this - a victim of 'making money and crowd control'. You probably shut off all the real resources/real science (linked below) and you're all-in with bogus BS science. 'Making money and crowd control' is fossil fuel industry agenda, their lobbyists' policy is literally written down as 'Creating confusion around fossil fuel usage and climate change'. And it's not the agenda of the Global Science community - including those from oil-producing countries.

Also, no, BMW is not selling only because of its engineering. Most buyers aren't even aware of its 'engineering', and once again, this is arrogant and egocentric; you don't like the design so nobody likes it, right?

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths
https://climate.mit.edu/explainers/electric-vehicles
https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change/
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/electric-vehicles-beat-gas-cars-on-climate-emissions-over-time/

Oh no they got you too.

You may realize sometime at a later point in time that all those links that you copy pasted here for our “education”, are published by places that get funded by the lobbyists who are promoting EVs for the sole sale of profit in a capitalistic economy.

I have co-written research grants and I know about these mechanics, you have PhD students to fund and a lab to run. Who will give you money, the industry, so you ride the wave. It’s an ecosystem of 5 disparate publication sources that co-exist and support each others claim to make it believable and way more compelling. That’s our world today.

Could you also educate us please (be respectful okay?), about battery waste, and disposal for the environment?

And let’s not talk about design, it’s a dead horse that the clairvoyant automotive designers cannot revive with the most potent stroke of their brush.

[PNWM3]

Originally Posted by bavarianboar

BMW brand, marketing, fed up Tesla customers (review the i4 sales), and the (lack of) other comparable options drive sales.

What you call modern designs is boneheaded ridiculous design to others and it doesn’t solely drive sales. Remove hofmeister kink, add boomerangs all on the inside (new X3), missing back row ambient lighting, plain Jane door trims in the G60, slap a tacky big 5 label on both sides, sparkly ///M-logos, the list is (fairly) long.

In god we trust, everyone else brings Data and Correlation as proof. Write us a financial analysis paper please with your facts exactly how design is driving the sales numbers up. Or it’s just another pure lazy speculation.

Sure, I’ll get right on writing you a paper. Sales are up because people don’t like the designs. You’re so smart, what’s driving the sales then? It’s a luxury brand, design matters…