[MI6]

Originally Posted by LI E90

Yes an RN in NY can make six figures easily

I want pics of the NY nurse who makes 100k and drives a bimmer...

JK......but, if you really want to post out there- feel free..........

[LEDZEP]

Nurses are in the highest demand ever. A good nurse can easily pull down six figures almost anywhere.

[Professor///M]

Originally Posted by MI6

I want pics of the NY nurse who makes 100k and drives a bimmer...

JK......but, if you really want to post out there- feel free..........

Do you really? I know like 4 of them at work.


Overtime and night differential put people in the medical field, even nurses, over six figures easy - even if they only are scheduled or salaried for about $60K.

Sometimes it's the same with cops, paramedics, and fire fighters too here in the north east.


We can all afford BMWs, our family income is none of anyone's business. You can tell from the pictures here where people come from.

[Chi-town330]

Originally Posted by AndrewAZ

No that just stupid. If you have money then you know how to make it or it was given to you. If you know how to make it then you realize how stupid it is to put so much money into a depreciating asset. About 50% of people lease MB's and of the people who lease 80% of them are doctors/lawyers and other high income earners (according to my MB sales guy). Reason being is they are smart and realize that instead of wasting $50k out of pocket on a car they can put $1k out of pocket and invest the $49K and hopefully make enough money to offset some of the lease costs along with depreciating the car lease for business use.

My family used to buy all of our cars strait up but then when we sat down with the accountant and worked the numbers out being a small business owner we figured we would save a substantial amount of money by leasing our cars.

I could of traded in my last car worth $37k at trade in and paid in full that day for my new E90 along with getting cash back. But since it made more economic sense I put down $5k since you dont pay tax on the trade in value and got a check written to me for $32k and right now thats invested in a energy fund and my monthly payment on my car is $26X or $3,120 a year meaning that my investment has to make 10% a year to cover my yearly car payment. So essentially I am leasing a E90 for 27 months for only $5k well actually less since some of the cost is taken out because of business depreciation.

You dont get wealthy by writing out checks and being foolish with your money, make your money work for you dont work for your money.

sorry, but this is not necessarily correct, and I wouldn't trust an accountant to tell me it is.

first of all, your investment taking on 10% per year per risk assumes a risk tolerance, YOUR risk tolerance, which you have not factored in. And you ar equating a risk investment with a riskless investment. Finance 101 - don't do that.

Second of all, I think your situation may involve certain tax implications/benefits for small business owners that don't apply to W-2 earners. Third, you don't mention the flexibility you lose when leasing, and the value of that to some people.

Fourth, you also assume that people pull the marginal dollar needed for a car purchase out of a high yield investment (i.e., i think you are overinflating the opportunity cost). Wrongo. many folks don't, I didn't. I keep x % of my total assets in money markets/equivalents, y% in the stock market, z% in real estate, a% in venture capital projects, etc. At the time, I was not comfortable investing MORE money in risk bearing projects, but was sitting on mounds of cash, so I used a relatively small portion of it pay for the car. So none of my higher return/higher risk portfolios were changed, and given my car is a measurable asset (albeit a depreciating one), I still kept my risk portfolio constant. This was right for ME, not necessarily for you.

Sixth, tax breaks for trade ins, and leasing taxes vary by state. so your blanket statement doesn't work in all places. We traded in a paid off E60 for our E90, and essentially paid almost no new taxes on the E90. (9% taxes here). That trade in tax credit would have not applied to a trade in, and in IL, you pay pretty hefty lease taxes. So why would I choose an option that increases my taxes?

My afer tax rate of return on my cash funds was well below the offered car interest rates, so FOR ME, my financial portfolio, and my risk tolerance, it was the RIGHT decision to pay cash for the car.

I could list more, but I won't.

ANY way you purchase a car, you are taking on the depreciation of an asset. If you think leasing allows you to bypass that, then you are being very, very naive.

SO, my point here is NOT to say YOU made a wrong decision for YOUR situation, but rather to say your assertion that what's right for you is right for everbody else on the planet is flat out, dead nuts wrong. And I am not going to go into it here, but trust me, I am more than qualified to fully analyze a simple car buying decision, including evaluating PERSONAL risk, oppportunity costs, PERSONAL financial portfolios, tax effects, etc. These models vary by a person's risk type, his/her wealth, etc. NOT a blanket model, which you imply.

Sorry to be harsh, but you started this by calling someone else's comments stupid, and then you launched into what happens to work for you.

I'll shut up now

[NYC335xi]

Originally Posted by AndrewAZ

No that just stupid. If you have money then you know how to make it or it was given to you. If you know how to make it then you realize how stupid it is to put so much money into a depreciating asset. About 50% of people lease MB's and of the people who lease 80% of them are doctors/lawyers and other high income earners (according to my MB sales guy). Reason being is they are smart and realize that instead of wasting $50k out of pocket on a car they can put $1k out of pocket and invest the $49K and hopefully make enough money to offset some of the lease costs along with depreciating the car lease for business use.

My family used to buy all of our cars strait up but then when we sat down with the accountant and worked the numbers out being a small business owner we figured we would save a substantial amount of money by leasing our cars.

I could of traded in my last car worth $37k at trade in and paid in full that day for my new E90 along with getting cash back. But since it made more economic sense I put down $5k since you dont pay tax on the trade in value and got a check written to me for $32k and right now thats invested in a energy fund and my monthly payment on my car is $26X or $3,120 a year meaning that my investment has to make 10% a year to cover my yearly car payment. So essentially I am leasing a E90 for 27 months for only $5k well actually less since some of the cost is taken out because of business depreciation.

You dont get wealthy by writing out checks and being foolish with your money, make your money work for you dont work for your money.

+1

[AndrewAZ]

Originally Posted by murellus

buy outright on amex. 1.5% cash back on purchases.

They wont take credit card... Tried this a few years back on a car purchase and they said the only way they would do it is if we paid the credit card fees they would have to pay. Which American Express is one of the highest fees for a merchant... Ever wonder why some places Amex card machine is not working on large purchases and the want you to use your visa card? And when the price gets up the $$$$$'s that fee from Amex over Visa adds up quick.

[AndrewAZ]

Originally Posted by Chi-town330

sorry, but this is not necessarily correct, and I wouldn't trust an accountant to tell me it is.

first of all, your investment taking on 10% per year per risk assumes a risk tolerance, YOUR risk tolerance, which you have not factored in. And you ar equating a risk investment with a riskless investment. Finance 101 - don't do that.

Second of all, I think your situation may involve certain tax implications/benefits for small business owners that don't apply to W-2 earners. Third, you don't mention the flexibility you lose when leasing, and the value of that to some people.

Fourth, you also assume that people pull the marginal dollar needed for a car purchase out of a high yield investment (i.e., i think you are overinflating the opportunity cost). Wrongo. many folks don't, I didn't. I keep x % of my total assets in money markets/equivalents, y% in the stock market, z% in real estate, a% in venture capital projects, etc. At the time, I was not comfortable investing MORE money in risk bearing projects, but was sitting on mounds of cash, so I used a relatively small portion of it pay for the car. So none of my higher return/higher risk portfolios were changed, and given my car is a measurable asset (albeit a depreciating one), I still kept my risk portfolio constant. This was right for ME, not necessarily for you.

Sixth, tax breaks for trade ins, and leasing taxes vary by state. so your blanket statement doesn't work in all places. We traded in a paid off E60 for our E90, and essentially paid almost no new taxes on the E90. (9% taxes here). That trade in tax credit would have not applied to a trade in, and in IL, you pay pretty hefty lease taxes. So why would I choose an option that increases my taxes?

My afer tax rate of return on my cash funds was well below the offered car interest rates, so FOR ME, my financial portfolio, and my risk tolerance, it was the RIGHT decision to pay cash for the car.

I could list more, but I won't.

ANY way you purchase a car, you are taking on the depreciation of an asset. If you think leasing allows you to bypass that, then you are being very, very naive.

SO, my point here is NOT to say YOU made a wrong decision for YOUR situation, but rather to say your assertion that what's right for you is right for everbody else on the planet is flat out, dead nuts wrong. And I am not going to go into it here, but trust me, I am more than qualified to fully analyze a simple car buying decision, including evaluating risk, oppportunity costs, tax effects, etc.

Sorry to be harsh, but you started this by calling someone else's comments stupid, and then you launched into what happens to work for you.

I'll shut up now

You are correct what was done in my case is not a cookie cutter deal that everyone else can do.. Then again the longest we keep a car in the family is 2-4 years and we usually have multiple cars around and if a car is lucky we will put 7,000-10k miles on it a year.

But as for lease vs purchase? umm What freedoms do I give up? With MB and BMW I see lease as an advantage since the lease deals they give unrealistic residual values. And if I wanted to I could mod my car but I would have to return it back to the original specs but then again when you mod your car you always keep the OEM party around the house and end up putting them back on the car and selling the after market stuff anyways since you get no value for it when you trade the car in.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by AndrewAZ

They wont take credit card... Tried this a few years back on a car purchase and they said the only way they would do it is if we paid the credit card fees they would have to pay. Which American Express is one of the highest fees for a merchant... Ever wonder why some places Amex card machine is not working on large purchases and the want you to use your visa card? And when the price gets up the $$$$$'s that fee from Amex over Visa adds up quick.

Just curious--what kind of fees we talking here (approx $$$ amount)?

[murellus]

car dealers will take credit card, usually around 4-5k...trust me, done this on the last 3 cars purchased (honda/lexus/bmw).

[Chi-town330]

Originally Posted by AndrewAZ

my investment has to make 10% a year to cover my yearly car payment.

oh, and please let us know what investment makes a guaranteed 10%. I think the world would like to know. We can single handedly put the Treasury bill out of business and bring the U.S. economy to it's knees!

I know of a project that will either lose EVERY dollar invested, or pay 5x (I am actually in it, with small portion of portfolio). Under your logic, let's just throw EVERY dollar we own in there - risk is not a factor and should not be used in making financial decisions.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by murellus

car dealers will take credit card, usually around 4-5k...trust me, done this on the last 3 cars purchased (honda/lexus/bmw).

what, 4-5K is the most they will take? So you use it for the down payment?

I just cannot imagine "putting" a 40+K car on a credit card....

[AndrewAZ]

Originally Posted by Chi-town330

oh, and please let us know what investment makes a guaranteed 10%. I think the world would like to know. We can single handedly put the Treasury bill out of business and bring the U.S. economy to it's knees!

I know of a project that will either lose EVERY dollar invested, or pay 5x (I am actually in it, with small portion of portfolio). Under your logic, let's just throw EVERY dollar we own in there - risk is not a factor and should not be used in making financial decisions.

First off I never said I had something that is guaranteed to make 10% I am saying that is all it has to make.

I am not even going to argue with you. I know your type on the internet and you are just a waste of my time. Good day.

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by Chi-town330

sorry, but this is not necessarily correct, and I wouldn't trust an accountant to tell me it is.

first of all, your investment taking on 10% per year per risk assumes a risk tolerance, YOUR risk tolerance, which you have not factored in. And you ar equating a risk investment with a riskless investment. Finance 101 - don't do that.

Second of all, I think your situation may involve certain tax implications/benefits for small business owners that don't apply to W-2 earners. Third, you don't mention the flexibility you lose when leasing, and the value of that to some people.

Fourth, you also assume that people pull the marginal dollar needed for a car purchase out of a high yield investment (i.e., i think you are overinflating the opportunity cost). Wrongo. many folks don't, I didn't. I keep x % of my total assets in money markets/equivalents, y% in the stock market, z% in real estate, a% in venture capital projects, etc. At the time, I was not comfortable investing MORE money in risk bearing projects, but was sitting on mounds of cash, so I used a relatively small portion of it pay for the car. So none of my higher return/higher risk portfolios were changed, and given my car is a measurable asset (albeit a depreciating one), I still kept my risk portfolio constant. This was right for ME, not necessarily for you.

Sixth, tax breaks for trade ins, and leasing taxes vary by state. so your blanket statement doesn't work in all places. We traded in a paid off E60 for our E90, and essentially paid almost no new taxes on the E90. (9% taxes here). That trade in tax credit would have not applied to a trade in, and in IL, you pay pretty hefty lease taxes. So why would I choose an option that increases my taxes?

My afer tax rate of return on my cash funds was well below the offered car interest rates, so FOR ME, my financial portfolio, and my risk tolerance, it was the RIGHT decision to pay cash for the car.

I could list more, but I won't.

ANY way you purchase a car, you are taking on the depreciation of an asset. If you think leasing allows you to bypass that, then you are being very, very naive.

SO, my point here is NOT to say YOU made a wrong decision for YOUR situation, but rather to say your assertion that what's right for you is right for everbody else on the planet is flat out, dead nuts wrong. And I am not going to go into it here, but trust me, I am more than qualified to fully analyze a simple car buying decision, including evaluating PERSONAL risk, oppportunity costs, PERSONAL financial portfolios, tax effects, etc. These models vary by a person's risk type, his/her wealth, etc. NOT a blanket model, which you imply.

Sorry to be harsh, but you started this by calling someone else's comments stupid, and then you launched into what happens to work for you.

I'll shut up now

The entire post could be replaced with YMMV.

[Chi-town330]

Originally Posted by AndrewAZ

You are correct what was done in my case is not a cookie cutter deal that everyone else can do.. Then again the longest we keep a car in the family is 2-4 years and we usually have multiple cars around and if a car is lucky we will put 7,000-10k miles on it a year.

But as for lease vs purchase? umm What freedoms do I give up? With MB and BMW I see lease as an advantage since the lease deals they give unrealistic residual values. And if I wanted to I could mod my car but I would have to return it back to the original specs but then again when you mod your car you always keep the OEM party around the house and end up putting them back on the car and selling the after market stuff anyways since you get no value for it when you trade the car in.

to your first paragraph: exactly, I'm sure you properly evaluated YOUR situation and it's right for you, I did not question that. I questioned you essentially calling anybody who doesn't lease "stupid", because you HOPE to make 10% on some fund (which, by the way, is around 6.5% after taxes, assuming normal income rates and high income, but I don't know the tax structure).

to your second paragraph: I have never leased, but WHAT? you don't think you give up some flexibility with a lease? how about if you exceed the mileage and have to pay high fees? how about if you grossly UNDER predict yoru mileage, and end up paying for a depreciation schedule that you did not use? how about if your life situation changes and you want to get out of the car after 6 months? how about the fact that they can charge you if you scratch up the car a bit? I could go on and on. and I am NOT saying leasing isn't good, but you asked a question, and I am answering it. however I have never leased, these are all stories I have heard from others, so I will not stand behind these assertions like I will for my financial modeling

[AndrewAZ]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Just curious--what kind of fees we talking here (approx $$$ amount)?

I think amex is like 2-3% vs visa of 1-1.5%.

So over 50k thats

1,000 at 2% for amex and $1,500 at 3%

vs Visa at of course $500 for 1% and $750 for 1.5%.

So thats a $500-$750 more in fees they have to pay.

So if you get 1.5% cash back on amex and you have to pay the merchant fee you end up losing money.

Also the fee might vary depending on the amount of money in the transaction, it might be a greater percent over $10k or some other number.

[Chi-town330]

Originally Posted by AndrewAZ

First off I never said I had something that is guaranteed to make 10% I am saying that is all it has to make.

I am not even going to argue with you. I know your type on the internet and you are just a waste of my time. Good day.

it "ONLY" has to make 10%???? EXACTLY. and BTW, is that after that little thing called taxes? are you in a high tax bracket?

funny, you call every person on this board who pays cash "stupid", but then want to pass judgment on those who challenge your assumptions on how it applies to other people besides yourself.

call us "stupid", and expect a response. say what works for you, and we will listen.

Good day

[ScottyGams]

well this thread no longer matches the OPs intentions...

Seacrest OUT!

[AndrewAZ]

Originally Posted by Chi-town330

it "ONLY" has to make 10%???? EXACTLY. and BTW, is that after that little thing called taxes? are you in a high tax bracket?

funny, you call every person on this board who doesn't lease "stupid", but then want to pass judgment on those who challenge your assumptions on how it applies to other people besides yourself.

call us "stupid", and expect a response. say what works for you, and we will listen.

Good day

No you take what I have said and you twist it around. I never called anyone who doesn't lease stupid you did. You have also taken various things I have said and interpreted them in your own way. You came into this topic with a mindset that you are right and only you are right and your only response is to attack and twist what I have said.

I was responded to someone who said "rich" people buy and dont care.. I said thats just plain stupid you dont get rich by spending and wasting money. And again a lot of people buy the car then go to a bank and take out a loan. Its very rare for people to fully pay 100% cash for a car 99% of people lease or get financing. Its like owning a home a lot of people with expensive homes take out a home loan betting on the fact they can beat the lending rate and make money.

And I do stick by my statement that it is stupid to fully pay 100% cash for a car.

I dont call people who finance stupid or people who lease stupid but paying 100% cash is just saying you dont care or dont know how to make money work fro you.

[DCJAX]

Originally Posted by AndrewAZ

No that just stupid. If you have money then you know how to make it or it was given to you. If you know how to make it then you realize how stupid it is to put so much money into a depreciating asset. About 50% of people lease MB's and of the people who lease 80% of them are doctors/lawyers and other high income earners (according to my MB sales guy). Reason being is they are smart and realize that instead of wasting $50k out of pocket on a car they can put $1k out of pocket and invest the $49K and hopefully make enough money to offset some of the lease costs along with depreciating the car lease for business use.

My family used to buy all of our cars strait up but then when we sat down with the accountant and worked the numbers out being a small business owner we figured we would save a substantial amount of money by leasing our cars.

Correct, but people drastically overstate the financial advantage there. That depends on your ability to earn a greater POST tax return than your coresponding finance rate. Let's assume that the type of person that could afford one of these cars in Cash would get the best rate possible, 5.5% from BMWFS currently?

Right now you can get that sort of rate from an online checking account, and slightly better in a CD. That income is taxable though, so you are doing a bit worse.

Taking it to the next level let's say you find some low cost mutual funds (I'm a fan of index funds myself), a nice 8% is a very strong bet. So the final calculation is 8% of 50k = $4000 - taxes (30% let's say) = $2800 - 5.5% of 50k ( $2750). So first year benefit of conservative intesting might be $50. Now obviously your investment money will compound, while the interest paid (lost) on the auto loan will decrease each year. To be sure it is a better way to go, but it's not going to turn you into a millionaire. (to all the finance nazis keep in mind I used simple interest etc., and I don't believe that the average person has a prayer of guaranteing a huge ROI... you could wind up with a 20% return, but you could also wind up with a net loss)

If I had a million dollars in the bank I wouldn't sweat buying a 50k car in cash just to not deal with worrying about it.

[Chi-town330]

Originally Posted by AndrewAZ

No you take what I have said and you twist it around. I never called anyone who doesn't lease stupid you did. You have also taken various things I have said and interpreted them in your own way. You came into this topic with a mindset that you are right and only you are right and your only response is to attack and twist what I have said.

I was responded to someone who said "rich" people buy and dont care.. I said thats just plain stupid you dont get rich by spending and wasting money. And again a lot of people buy the car then go to a bank and take out a loan. Its very rare for people to fully pay 100% cash for a car 99% of people lease or get financing. Its like owning a home a lot of people with expensive homes take out a home loan betting on the fact they can beat the lending rate and make money.

And I do stick by my statement that it is stupid to fully pay 100% cash for a car.

I dont call people who finance stupid or people who lease stupid but paying 100% cash is just saying you dont care or dont know how to make money work fro you.

I thought you were done?

I suggest you read the the last line of your original post, when you said it is "foolish". And here you DO say it is stupid. ok, you are correct, you didn't call us stupid, just said we are doing stupid and foolish things financially. That makes me feel much less insulted.



i would continue to debate you that your answer doesn't work for EVERYBODY, but I tried and didn't get thru, and I'm sure everybody else is sick of this anyway, including my rants.

You are right, we cash buyers made a stupid decision and are foolish.....regardless of our age, retirement horizon (maybe even IN retirement, we should all follow your logic) portfolio size, portfolio mix, personal risk tolerance, market conditions, personal tax structure, life situation, etc. You figured all that out, for all of us. Thank you for your wisdom. And your insults.

[Revlis]

I'd like to re-iterate my:

Originally Posted by Revlis

Hey Everybody, lets turn this into yet ANOTHER Lets measure our Imaginary Incomes Thread!!!

And add a:

[Cornhusker]

I know a way to get 2.99 % for life on a credit card while paying a maximum of 100.00 fee. Somtimes less. Anyone wanna know?

I purchased my 335i on three credit cards, paid a total of 225.00 in fees. One of them is at 0% for 17 months. The other two are fixed at 2.99 for life. It took me a total of 10 minutes to arrange this.

I would have done it with less cards, but my limits weren't big enough. I will pay off the 0% card in 17 months and the 2.99% cards minimum payments will be deducted automatically forever until it's paid off. I don't even write a check.