[ptack]

Originally Posted by E90SLAM

Explanation of the green flag saw in the video.



http://t.co/24sH3wyVl6

I think the amateur video reveals that whoever was in that tower had no clue or direction as to what flag to be waving. They are waving double yellows and then switch to green when the car and tractor from accident 1 start to move, but have not yet exited the course field. Then, after the 2nd accident, they are still waving a green flag! They don't stop until someone runs up the stairs and obviously shouts for them to go back to yellow.

This looks like some people screwed up big time.

[onatuesday]

Originally Posted by ptack

I think the amateur video reveals that whoever was in that tower had no clue or direction as to what flag to be waving. They are waving double yellows and then switch to green when the car and tractor from accident 1 start to move, but have not yet exited the course field. Then, after the 2nd accident, they are still waving a green flag! They don't stop until someone runs up the stairs and obviously shouts for them to go back to yellow.

This looks like some people screwed up big time.

Thanks. I'm not sure how anyone can defend this. I mean it's accidental by the corner worker, but to give us reasons as to why it's "perfectly normal" for a green flag to be shown in that instance is just poor taste in my book. Call it what it is. A mistake. So next time it doesn't happen again.

[E90SLAM]

Originally Posted by trinim3

Thanks. I'm not sure how anyone can defend this. I mean it's accidental by the corner worker, but to give us reasons as to why it's "perfectly normal" for a green flag to be shown in that instance is just poor taste in my book. Call it what it is. A mistake. So next time it doesn't happen again.

I think I can understand waving green when the Sauber being towed pass the marshal post. But you're right, after the Marussia hit the tractor, the green flag was beyond belief.

No radio communication up there? Someone has to run up the stairs and tells them for waved yellow and "SC" signs.

We will see FIA's investigation and statement regard to this tragic accident. And there's always improvements required for safety.

[hellrotm]

I don't know, something just doesn't seem right about the speed at which Jules hit the tractor.

I agree with Bottas, something doesn't add up.

Williams driver Valtteri Bottas also played down concerns about the fading light, telling Auto Motor und Sport that he could "see the flags and there was also the flashing light" in his cockpit.

"No car should go out of control in that situation," Bottas is quoted by the Finnish broadcaster MTV3. "I saw everything. There was way too much momentum."

[thebishman]

What we need to know is what flags were being waved at the Marshall's stand BEFORE this actual corner. If the previous stand was waving double yellows warning drivers of a serious situation coming up that is how the system is supposed to function, so that drivers can be forewarned.

[TMiller]

Any more word of his condition?

[E90SLAM]

Originally Posted by TMiller

Any more word of his condition?

None at the moment, with his injury. It would take weeks, months or even years to have any improvement or update. Its a huge unknown.

[E90SLAM]

Some people think closed cockpits would guard against head injuries in F1, but I fail to see how.

In the shadow of the Jules Bianchi accident at the end of the 2014 Japanese Grand Prix, there has been some talk about how this kind of tragedy can be prevented in the future. For anyone who doesn’t know, Bianchi has been in the hospital fighting for his life.

He struck a recovery vehicle at a very high speed. The recovery car was attempting to remove Adrian Sutil’s Sauber, which had hydroplaned off of the circuit one lap prior. Bianchi’s car struck the rear of a tractor, lifting it off of the ground, and causing catastrophic damage to both the Marussia and Bianchi's head.

F1's impressive safety record

Safety has always been one of the FIA’s top priorities and they have worked hard to prevent these types of accidents. It’s true that the sport has seen an extraordinary amount of fatal accidents in its history, but it is from these accidents that some of the world’s most important safety features emerged. After the death of the immortal Ayrton Senna, the sport was able to get the world’s leading engineers together and succeeded in making the sport a much safer place.

With twenty years of fatality free racing, F1 has gained one of the best safety records in the industry. Although it is impossible to completely eliminate the threat of death, the frequency in which they occur and the overall possibility of them taking place has been greatly reduced.

You can't remove all the risk

Despite their best efforts, it is impossible to remove all risk from motorsport. Every time a driver straps into a car, they are putting their lives on the line, no matter how safe they may feel. It's a risk that these drivers are wiling to take in order to do what they truly love. Senna highlighted just how important racing was to him ... “Racing, competing, it's in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I have been doing it all my life and it stands out above everything else.”

So what can be done to prevent accidents of the same magnitude as that of Jules Bianchi?

Closed cockpits? They would do more harm than good

In recent media, various outlets have endorsed the use of a closed cockpit. There are two main designs for this: First, the standard clear roof over the regular cockpit. Second, the use of a solid bar stationed directly in front of the driver, used to protect the driver’s head in a front collision. However, the use of these safety devices may prevent more of a hazard than safety.

In the case of the full roof, this device could potentially slow a driver’s escape time. If there is a hard impact to the roof, it may flatten; causing more injury to the driver or it may obstruct his exit from the vehicle. In the case of the front roll-over bar, this device would obstruct the driver’s view and in the event of it detaching from the body of the car, it could become a potentially sharp, spear-like projectile that could strike a driver’s head. After mulling it over, it becomes clear that a closed cockpit car could cause more danger than it would prevent.

Hit the safety ceiling

But if closed cockpit cars aren’t the option, what can be done to prevent another serious accident? In my opinion, the sport has virtually hit the safety ceiling. Anything else they do would start compromising the product, or potentially be a wrong step away from what F1 cars have always been. The bottom line is that these kind of accidents can't be predicted. A car hitting the back of a tractor, a spring striking a driver's head ... It's very difficult to fight back against bizarre situations like that.

You can't protect drivers from an accident that no one can foresee. By adding more safety features to the cars, you also risk creating new hazards, as I demonstrated with the closed cockpit designs. It’s the idea that for every positive, there is also negative.

The realistic response to the Bianchi crash

Of course, as with any accident, there is something that we can learn from Bianchi’s and some regulations that can be modified to prevent such an outcome in the future. Things like reassessing how much rain may be on the track before the race is red flagged, deploying the safety car when machinery is on the track, expanding the size of the caution zone under a local yellow or even adding safety guards to the safety vehicles to prevent cars from moving underneath them. These are just a few of the ideas that have been thrown out there in recent days.

There's no one to blame

As for those of you that are looking for someone to blame for the accident; don’t bother. Blaming people will not undo this terrible accident, nor will it help Bianchi. What’s done is done. The only thing that we can do is try to learn as much as we can about the factors that led up to this accident and make changes to regulations in an attempt to ensure that this never happens again. Formula One will always carry a risk and death in motorsport is unavoidable.

We can reduce the risk, but we will never be able to fully eliminate it. As for Jules Bianchi, I wish him a full and speedy recovery. I would like to give my best to his family, friends and loved ones, as they go through this extremely tough situation. I would like to remind the members for the Formula One community to respect their privacy. I have hope for Jules. He can pull through this.

Forza Jules.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/cl...harm-than-good

[onatuesday]

Originally Posted by E90SLAM

Some people think closed cockpits would guard against head injuries in F1, but I fail to see how.

In the shadow of the Jules Bianchi accident at the end of the 2014 Japanese Grand Prix, there has been some talk about how this kind of tragedy can be prevented in the future. For anyone who doesn’t know, Bianchi has been in the hospital fighting for his life.

He struck a recovery vehicle at a very high speed. The recovery car was attempting to remove Adrian Sutil’s Sauber, which had hydroplaned off of the circuit one lap prior. Bianchi’s car struck the rear of a tractor, lifting it off of the ground, and causing catastrophic damage to both the Marussia and Bianchi's head.

F1's impressive safety record

Safety has always been one of the FIA’s top priorities and they have worked hard to prevent these types of accidents. It’s true that the sport has seen an extraordinary amount of fatal accidents in its history, but it is from these accidents that some of the world’s most important safety features emerged. After the death of the immortal Ayrton Senna, the sport was able to get the world’s leading engineers together and succeeded in making the sport a much safer place.

With twenty years of fatality free racing, F1 has gained one of the best safety records in the industry. Although it is impossible to completely eliminate the threat of death, the frequency in which they occur and the overall possibility of them taking place has been greatly reduced.

You can't remove all the risk

Despite their best efforts, it is impossible to remove all risk from motorsport. Every time a driver straps into a car, they are putting their lives on the line, no matter how safe they may feel. It's a risk that these drivers are wiling to take in order to do what they truly love. Senna highlighted just how important racing was to him ... “Racing, competing, it's in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I have been doing it all my life and it stands out above everything else.”

So what can be done to prevent accidents of the same magnitude as that of Jules Bianchi?

Closed cockpits? They would do more harm than good

In recent media, various outlets have endorsed the use of a closed cockpit. There are two main designs for this: First, the standard clear roof over the regular cockpit. Second, the use of a solid bar stationed directly in front of the driver, used to protect the driver’s head in a front collision. However, the use of these safety devices may prevent more of a hazard than safety.

In the case of the full roof, this device could potentially slow a driver’s escape time. If there is a hard impact to the roof, it may flatten; causing more injury to the driver or it may obstruct his exit from the vehicle. In the case of the front roll-over bar, this device would obstruct the driver’s view and in the event of it detaching from the body of the car, it could become a potentially sharp, spear-like projectile that could strike a driver’s head. After mulling it over, it becomes clear that a closed cockpit car could cause more danger than it would prevent.

Hit the safety ceiling

But if closed cockpit cars aren’t the option, what can be done to prevent another serious accident? In my opinion, the sport has virtually hit the safety ceiling. Anything else they do would start compromising the product, or potentially be a wrong step away from what F1 cars have always been. The bottom line is that these kind of accidents can't be predicted. A car hitting the back of a tractor, a spring striking a driver's head ... It's very difficult to fight back against bizarre situations like that.

You can't protect drivers from an accident that no one can foresee. By adding more safety features to the cars, you also risk creating new hazards, as I demonstrated with the closed cockpit designs. It’s the idea that for every positive, there is also negative.

The realistic response to the Bianchi crash

Of course, as with any accident, there is something that we can learn from Bianchi’s and some regulations that can be modified to prevent such an outcome in the future. Things like reassessing how much rain may be on the track before the race is red flagged, deploying the safety car when machinery is on the track, expanding the size of the caution zone under a local yellow or even adding safety guards to the safety vehicles to prevent cars from moving underneath them. These are just a few of the ideas that have been thrown out there in recent days.

There's no one to blame

As for those of you that are looking for someone to blame for the accident; don’t bother. Blaming people will not undo this terrible accident, nor will it help Bianchi. What’s done is done. The only thing that we can do is try to learn as much as we can about the factors that led up to this accident and make changes to regulations in an attempt to ensure that this never happens again. Formula One will always carry a risk and death in motorsport is unavoidable.

We can reduce the risk, but we will never be able to fully eliminate it. As for Jules Bianchi, I wish him a full and speedy recovery. I would like to give my best to his family, friends and loved ones, as they go through this extremely tough situation. I would like to remind the members for the Formula One community to respect their privacy. I have hope for Jules. He can pull through this.

Forza Jules.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/cl...harm-than-good

^TL;DR closed cockpits could do more harm than good.

I agree.

[solstice]

When a recovery vehicle is crashed into there is someone to blame and things to improve. Maybe automatic red flag when a vehicle is stranded during rain until it's fully removed. If that was the rule Jules would be fine now and it would do little to degrade the racing. This kind of accidents under warning flags is nauseating and off-putting for the sport much more than a rule change that take nothing away from racing.

As Niki Lauda I want F1 to be difficult for the driver. Rain is difficult but difficult is not the same as dangerous. It can be relatively safe and difficult. Let's hope the effort goes towards making wet weather safer and not dryer.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by thebishman

What we need to know is what flags were being waved at the Marshall's stand BEFORE this actual corner. If the previous stand was waving double yellows warning drivers of a serious situation coming up that is how the system is supposed to function, so that drivers can be forewarned.

From everything that I have read. The on track LED lights were yellow going into the corner and the marshal stand going into corner was waving double yellow. The stand (post 12) in the video that momentarily went green was looking after a different sector of the track. Marshals’ boundaries are strictly defined and once the recovery vehicle and Sutil’s car had gone backwards beyond point 12 his sector would have been acknowledged as clear. The cars also have yellow lights that flash in the cockpit as well.

With the amount of rain and I was surprised at the speed at which he hit the tractor. He must have been booking it around that corner. Would have been one hell of head-on hit into the barrier, even without the tractor. It was an unfortunate accident, honestly could have just been driver error.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

From everything that I have read. The on track LED lights were yellow going into the corner and the marshal stand going into corner was waving double yellow. The stand (post 12) in the video that momentarily went green was looking after a different sector of the track. Marshals’ boundaries are strictly defined and once the recovery vehicle and Sutil’s car had gone backwards beyond point 12 his sector would have been acknowledged as clear.

Therein lies the problem, the marshal may well have been working exactly to the flag regulations but a driver heading towards that station seeing a double waved yellow go to waved green in that moment is likely to believe that the course is now clear.
What needs to be reconsidered is extending the zone for waved yellows such that a hazard needs to be much further than a couple of feet past a marshal station before he goes from double waved yellows to waved green.

[KingOfJericho]

I think the promotors are going to be held accountable for this accident. They were given two separate options for having the race at different times with better weather conditions. They opted for neither and now there's a driver clinging to life.

Also shocking to me was that they enabled DRS in those conditions. It's an unusual move and I'm curious to hear the radio transmissions from LH as I'm pretty confident he was begging race control to enable it.

[TMiller]

Originally Posted by E90SLAM

None at the moment, with his injury. It would take weeks, months or even years to have any improvement or update. Its a huge unknown.

Thanks.

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by M_Six

That tractor must weigh 7 or 8 tons and was lifted off the ground by a car weighing less than one ton and made mostly of carbon fiber. Some serious kinetic energy at play there. The fact that Bianchi is even alive is amazing.

was thinking the same thing

[rad doc]

The outlets and Claire Williams simply do not understand the mechanism of injury. Bianchi would be in the same situation with or without a closed cockpit. His injury, DAI, is a sheering injury related to the sudden deceleration, not a result of direct trauma.

[IrishNoodles]

I went off to bed minutes before the Bianchi incident, but having viewed all of the footage (amateur as it is), the FIA could clear a lot of things up by (a) releasing official race footage, or (b) releasing on-board footage from Bianchi's car in the 20 to 30 seconds prior to leaving the track.

Two things just don't make sense to me: if he aquaplaned (1) why was he travelling so fast at the point of impact (which appears to be around 145kmph) and (2) why was he travelling in a perfectly straight line, nose in.

None of the amateur footage explains any of this.

As for the marshalls and the waiving of green flags, it would appear that up until the Bianchi accident everything was done by the book (a flawed book), but after the accident those green flags should no longer have been waived.

[ashtaron14]

Honda's Ad for their return to F1 in 2015

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Therein lies the problem, the marshal may well have been working exactly to the flag regulations but a driver heading towards that station seeing a double waved yellow go to waved green in that moment is likely to believe that the course is now clear.
What needs to be reconsidered is extending the zone for waved yellows such that a hazard needs to be much further than a couple of feet past a marshal station before he goes from double waved yellows to waved green.

But the drivers reaction to the early marshal stand(corner entry), is what Jules should have heeded to. He clearly went into the corner with way too much speed. Post 12 was well into the corner and would not have factored into his entry speed. Also take into account the bright flashing LED track lights and cockpit yellow lights. I don't think the marshal in post 12 had anything to do with Jules carrying too much speed into the corner, especially considering the weather conditions and yellow lights flashing. This very well could be just a driver over driving for the current weather conditions. I believe the speed at which he hit the tractor is very telling, unless he had some sort of mechanical failure.

[E90SLAM]

Before all the telemetry and FIA report about this accident, just based on what we've seen online and during the race.
We should not jump onto conclusion that F1 should go to closed cockpit. With such energy played to pivot the heavy tractor, the canopy could be as weak as a piece of cracker snack, and would make minimal difference in this freak accident. Although in Massa Hungarian 2009, that might dissipate some energy and/or deflect the bouncing spring. I see closed cockpit canopies can help road debris more than prevent Jules accident.

However, we can look at how Formula 1 should run. Especially in rain and deteriorating weather.
- Safety car when heavy rain, and possible reoccurring accidents at certain corners, that requires marshals to recover stranded vehicle.
- Red Flag in above condition?
- More stringent Double Wave yellow rules. Speed Limit? or mandatory 5 seconds delta time on double waved yellow sectors. Forcing drivers to slow down substantially. (Currently Race control only looked at driver's sector time not to be better than previous lap or something like that)
- Leave stranded vehicle alone until race ended in heavy rain condition or possible reoccurring accidents at same corner.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by E90SLAM

Before all the telemetry and FIA report about this accident, just based on what we've seen online and during the race.
We should not jump onto conclusion that F1 should go to closed cockpit. With such energy played to pivot the heavy tractor, the canopy could be as weak as a piece of cracker snack, and would make minimal difference in this freak accident. Although in Massa Hungarian 2009, that might dissipate some energy and/or deflect the bouncing spring. I see closed cockpit canopies can help road debris more than prevent Jules accident.

However, we can look at how Formula 1 should run. Especially in rain and deteriorating weather.
- Safety car when heavy rain, and possible reoccurring accidents at certain corners, that requires marshals to recover stranded vehicle.
- Red Flag in above condition?
- More stringent Double Wave yellow rules. Speed Limit? or mandatory 5 seconds delta time on double waved yellow sectors. Forcing drivers to slow down substantially. (Currently Race control only looked at driver's sector time not to be better than previous lap or something like that)
- Leave stranded vehicle alone until race ended in heavy rain condition or possible reoccurring accidents at same corner.

Closed cockpit is a stupid idea. People might find it as a bright idea, until some gets trapped in a burning car and cooks like a baked potato.

People just need to breathe, quit overreacting. Car racing is a dangerous sport and these drivers are well aware of these dangers each and every time they get in the car.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

Closed cockpit is a stupid idea. People might find it as a bright idea, until some gets trapped in a burning car and cooks like a baked potato.

People just need to breathe, quit overreacting. Car racing is a dangerous sport and these drivers are well aware of these dangers each and every time they get in the car.

This.

Look at Schumi. He raced cars on the ragged edge for decades then suffers major brain trauma while skiing. You can get hurt doing nearly anything.