[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Neusser

Yeah, the only part I am not sure I agree on is calling the listed cars econoboxes. I mean, there were "economy" versions, but RWD platforms are more costly to produce, and these cars were available with leather upholstery and more.

https://www.classic-sterne.de/de/fah...-2002-tii.html

Right, and RWD provides way better driving dynamics (until the advent of computer controlled driving), which is why BMWs were "The Ultimate Driving Machine". I remember when the Mini-based FWD 1-series debuted and BMW touted the roominess the FWD chassis layout provided for the customer. No shit Sherlock, Sir Alec Issigonis figured that out 60 some years ago.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Neusser

BMW has always been a pioneer in design. There are many questionable designs from past eras, and some have aged quite well. Many hated the Bangle designs, and some of them have gone on to be celebrated.

Challenging designs are good, as they force you out of your box. Nothing worse than running with the crowd, taking no risks, etc.

Ofc, the above also describes about 90% of the population.

I do have to admit I was one of the Bangle detractors. When the E85 Z4 Roadster debuted in 2003, I thought it was completely hideous. Yet here I sit some 20 years later with an E86 in my fleet (since 2014). Still not a great fan of the front-end styling, but the Coupe for some reason makes the whole car look better.

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I do have to admit I was one of the Bangle detractors.

I was too. Then I bought an E60, followed by an E82, followed by an E90, followed by an E65 which I still have. There isn't a single Bangle era car I don't like now.

I'm one of those people that doesn't think BMW has lost its way in terms of design. I don't pay much attention to the SUVs/FWD cars, but the current crop of core cars (3,5,7) are all cars I'd own today. They're very color and trim sensitive, but if you do it right they're badass.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I do have to admit I was one of the Bangle detractors. When the E85 Z4 Roadster debuted in 2003, I thought it was completely hideous. Yet here I sit some 20 years later with an E86 in my fleet (since 2014). Still not a great fan of the front-end styling, but the Coupe for some reason makes the whole car look better.

So was I. Some of the designs have aged quite well though.

I think one reason for this is that despite the sometimes jarring lines and odd surfacing, the core proportions are almost always spot on.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Chihuahua

I was too. Then I bought an E60, followed by an E82, followed by an E90, followed by an E65 which I still have. There isn't a single Bangle era car I don't like now.

I'm one of those people that doesn't think BMW has lost its way in terms of design. I don't pay much attention to the SUVs/FWD cars, but the current crop of core cars (3,5,7) are all cars I'd own today. They're very color and trim sensitive, but if you do it right they're badass.

I'm also going to admit the ginormous Beaver Tooth grille is growing on me. On a black car it is quite tolerable to me now (I only buy black BTW). The Neue Klasse electrics that debuted awhile back I really like because the greenhouses hark back to the '70s and '80s. Whether the design survives to production we will have to wait to see. If I HAD to go electric, I'd gladly buy the Neue Klasse 3-series over anything current in the EV market.

[yousefnjr]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'm also going to admit the ginormous Beaver Tooth grille is growing on me. On a black car it is quite tolerable to me now (I only buy black BTW). The Neue Klasse electrics that debuted awhile back I really like because the greenhouses hark back to the '70s and '80s. Whether the design survives to production we will have to wait to see. If I HAD to go electric, I'd gladly buy the Neue Klasse 3-series over anything current in the EV market.

Earlier this year during Monterey Car Week we stopped by the BMW Villa for the M5 event they were hosting. All throughout the house they had artwork, models, and other neat BMW things including this book on BMW designs. Flipping through it I couldn’t help but notice something that looked a little familiar apparently they’ve been chewing on this shape for nearly 30 years

[surbrar]

Even BMW's boxy sedans in the 1970s looked great.

[Egrunt]

Having owned the following M cars: E46 M3, E39 M5, F80 M3, and F90 M5. Looking back the E46 and E39 are my favorites. I have owned more Corvettes then BMW M cars over the years. I am now looking at the Corvette Eray. The current design direction BMW has chosen to follow does not intrest me. Hence the reason there was a gap between the the E46/E39 and F80/F90.

[MAYDAY5]

Originally Posted by surbrar

Even BMW's boxy sedans in the 1970s looked great.

Beautiful automobile, I like all BMW's.

[BeEmVe]

Originally Posted by yousefnjr

Earlier this year during Monterey Car Week we stopped by the BMW Villa for the M5 event they were hosting. All throughout the house they had artwork, models, and other neat BMW things including this book on BMW designs. Flipping through it I couldn’t help but notice something that looked a little familiar apparently they’ve been chewing on this shape for nearly 30 years

Was driving with the wife in her buggy this week when a bucky beaver bimmer went by. She immediately did her front teeth imitation. Then we laughed.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by cooolone2

Anyone embracing the infantile design changes in regard to exterior aesthetics over the last few years there's very low taste in style or appreciation for the finer things...

Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, but keep in mind that taste and style are personal and subjective.

What you see as "infantile", someone else might find fresh and bold. Dismissing other people’s opinions this way makes it seem like there’s only one right way to appreciate design, which isn’t really the case. Respecting different opinions keeps conversations open and more enriching. It helps us understand how styles and trends evolve over time.

At the end of the day, design is meant to evoke different emotional responses for different people, and that’s what makes it exciting.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by SW111

It is generally acknowledged that BMW's best years were the late 90's and early 2000's. It is also generally acknowledged that BMW is going downhill, especially in the styling department.

It's not generally acknowledged that BMW's best years were late 90s and early 2000s. That's only claimed by people who had their own best years in 90s and 2000s.

BMW's best years are 2020s, based on factual information.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

It's not generally acknowledged that BMW's best years were late 90s and early 2000s. That's only claimed by people who had their own best years in 90s and 2000s.

BMW's best years are 2020s, based on factual information.

In 15 years people will be discussing the 2020 BMW vehicles as the golden age of the brand. It's just how things work with the generations and how people's memories of the past get clouded as they age where it's more revisionist. I look at the fact that BMW today is actually producing some of the most reliable vehicles from any brand and IMO that's by far their highest achievement as it's something that the german brands have never ever been able to accomplish up to now. Quite an amazing achievement when you consider how complex the typical BMW is compared to Japanese brands for example that keep things as simple as possible for cost and reliability.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by SW111

Just saw an article about the 25th anniversary celebration of the X5. It is generally acknowledged that BMW's best years were the late 90's and early 2000's. It is also generally acknowledged that BMW is going downhill, especially in the styling department. Is it a coincidence that the introduction of SUV's coincides with the downward trend? I remember when BMW did not make SUV's and were considered drivers cars. Excellent steering and road feel, and overall road manners. They looked good too. It seems to me they are just ugly expensive luxury cars now. There are exceptions, and I consider my 2016 F22 M235 with a manual transmission as one of them, but it is almost 10 years old. I got it because it was the smallest lightest thing they made. I had been without a BMW for awhile and wanted something on the new side. At the local BMWCCA chapter cars and coffee everyone gravitates toward the older cars. The equivalent 2 series now is a boxy, ugly car. I honestly can’t think of anything in their current lineup that I would consider attractive. I just saw a new 7 series and one of its grills would cover both mine. I was invited to an X3 event at the local dealer. Same thing, ugly grills and blocky styling. The dash was hideous, a big screen stretched across the dash. It reminded me of a Tesla.

///M cars used to be somewhat exclusive and special. My E34 ///M5 was one of about 1500 in the U.S. It was hand assembled and had an engine derived from racing. Now they plaster the ///M badge all over, on every thing they make. It is the one thing I really dislike about my car. ///M badges everywhere.

Maybe BMW would have ended up here without the SUV's. There are other factors to be sure, Chinese and younger people’s tastes among them. But I think SUV's took the focus away from the cars. I know I am out of their target demographic now, but the Audi's and Mercedes I see around look decent.

Moderators move this to the "You know you're old when" thread if needed.

https://bimmerlife.com/2024/11/13/ce...tm_name=member

[PunsGalore]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I do have to admit I was one of the Bangle detractors. When the E85 Z4 Roadster debuted in 2003, I thought it was completely hideous. Yet here I sit some 20 years later with an E86 in my fleet (since 2014). Still not a great fan of the front-end styling, but the Coupe for some reason makes the whole car look better.

I always loved the bangle era.. now and back then. The new styling on BMW’s is whack!!

[PunsGalore]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

It's not generally acknowledged that BMW's best years were late 90s and early 2000s. That's only claimed by people who had their own best years in 90s and 2000s.

BMW's best years are 2020s, based on factual information.

I disagree, I think the 2000’s, maybe even late 90’s were easily the best BMW’s.. they drive like they’re on rails.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

It's not generally acknowledged that BMW's best years were late 90s and early 2000s. That's only claimed by people who had their own best years in 90s and 2000s.

BMW's best years are 2020s, based on factual information.

Eh, it depends on what metric you are evaluating. I have been driving BMWs since the late 1970s and bought my first BMW in 1988, an E30. I've driven every 3-series since the 2002 though the F30 and a 2021 228i, along with some unmemorable 1-series (both as loaner cars). While the metric of "reliability" for BMWs has improved, they absolutely suck to drive as compared to the "Ultimate Driving Machine(s)". The situation is most modern cars handle quite well because they all have computer aided driving systems that are able to apply individual braking at individual wheels and apply torque at individual wheels, all controlled by a computer using sensor feedback. BMW joined this trend and lost their driving dynamics they were known and touted for, because every other manufacturer's cars sucked at driving dynamics back when BMW was king of dynamics. BMWs were so good at driving dynamics they made their owners better drivers because the chassis communicated things to the driver that non-BMWs didn't (and couldn't). And you didn't have to buy a "///M-car" to get it. When we "elders" - LOL - speak of great BMWs of the past, that is the metric we are referring to.

Great, modern 2020's BMWs require less maintenance and repair and Consumer Reports puts them near the top for "reliability", but they suck to drive and drive no better than a Subaru or Oldsmobile.

Hoo'effin'ray!

[Mavus]

reliablity is better on a blaoted clar platform vs superior diver-machine interface on the ultimate driving machine on rwd platform with hydr steering. This is somewhat to be expected since bmw was developing and improving their I6 turbo engines on E8x and E9x.

Post bmw E8x, E9x there hasn’t been a single car in bmw portfolio that is better to drive from a driver’s seat. They all feel diconnected, M cars less so obviously. One has to differentiate bmw as a rwd platform vs bloated clar platform manufacturer with smaller number of different drivetrains with I6.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Great, modern 2020's BMWs require less maintenance and repair and Consumer Reports puts them near the top for "reliability", but they suck to drive and drive no better than a Subaru or Oldsmobile.

Hoo'effin'ray!

LOL clearly someone has not driven a Subaru or Oldsmobile.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

LOL clearly someone has not driven a Subaru or Oldsmobile.

Sadly, that's the point, I have and BMWs from just a few years ago. When a BMW uses its lane-keeping function to try and pull you out of a left turn lane that is spattered with sand and some detritus from the trees near the median, the Brand has lost its DNA.

That happened to me the last time I drove a modern BMW 2-Series. I was pulling into the little-used left turn lane into my office building parking lot in late March 2021. The lane had sand left in it from previous week's winter treatment and a few fallen sticks from a tree overshadowing the lane. The ADAS mistook the lane as the road shoulder (there was none - it is a curbed city street) and tried to yank me right, right into the main roadway lane with a car approaching. That event, Sir, is not the behavior of an "Ultimate Driving Machine"; it is the behavior of an POS automobile designed for the lowest common denominator of poor driver (i.e. those who buy Oldsmobiles and Subarus).

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Sadly, that's the point, I have and BMWs from just a few years ago. When a BMW uses its lane-keeping function to try and pull you out of a left turn lane that is spattered with sand and some detritus from the trees near the median, the Brand has lost its DNA.

That happened to me the last time I drove a modern BMW 2-Series. I was pulling into the little-used left turn lane into my office building parking lot in late March 2021. The lane had sand left in it from previous week's winter treatment and a few fallen sticks from a tree overshadowing the lane. The ADAS mistook the lane as the road shoulder (there was none - it is a curbed city street) and tried to yank me right, right into the main roadway lane with a car approaching. That event, Sir, is not the behavior of an "Ultimate Driving Machine"; it is the behavior of an POS automobile designed for the lowest common denominator of poor driver (i.e. those who buy Oldsmobiles and Subarus).

So you're knocking BMW for having modern safety tech? (Btw you can switch off lane keep assist if it bothers you that much). You can switch off pretty much everything and drive it like a hooligan. That's why the M2 has the highest insurance rates in the BMW lineup - because people keep crashing them when they drive them with all the nannies turned off. Nearly 500 hp on a RWD car with 0 driving aids in the hands of inexperienced drivers is a disaster waiting to happen, and BMW is one of the few brands that allows you to be an idiot.

I can't speak for the 2 series you drove, but in my experience the BMW in its class is still far superior to competitors, in some cases by a large margin. Drive an M3 and an RS5 and a C63 back to back. Hell drive an X7 and a GLS and a Q7 back to back. In each case the BMW is far superior in driving dynamics. The fact that it's also now more luxurious and reliable is a bonus.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

So you're knocking BMW for having modern safety tech? (Btw you can switch off lane keep assist if it bothers you that much). You can switch off pretty much everything and drive it like a hooligan. That's why the M2 has the highest insurance rates in the BMW lineup - because people keep crashing them when they drive them with all the nannies turned off. Nearly 500 hp on a RWD car with 0 driving aids in the hands of inexperienced drivers is a disaster waiting to happen, and BMW is one of the few brands that allows you to be an idiot.

I can't speak for the 2 series you drove, but in my experience the BMW in its class is still far superior to competitors, in some cases by a large margin. Drive an M3 and an RS5 and a C63 back to back. Hell drive an X7 and a GLS and a Q7 back to back. In each case the BMW is far superior in driving dynamics. The fact that it's also now more luxurious and reliable is a bonus.

That is my point, 500 HP in a short wheelbase sedan/coupe. Why have driver aids to curtail performance capabilities if the chassis is over-powered and cant handle it in the first place? That's why back in the day Ford built over-powered Mustangs and BMW built 3-Series that made the owner a better driver because of its chassis sophistication.

It's not a safety technology if it fucks up and puts you back in traffic where you did not intend to drive the car. I bought BMW because I pay attention to what I'm doing behind the steering wheel and the chassis helped me direct the car on my intended path. The only reason that safety shit is in the car is because the manufacturer puts a fucking screen on the dashboard and knows the driver is not paying attention to the road. It's liability avoidance technology, not safety technology. It's really not hard to keep a car in a lane if you are paying attention to the activity at hand.