[G80indy]

Originally Posted by E9TOU

My boss knows nothing about cars and she used to own a ZSP E46 330 Sedan. She told me that she's driven a lot of cars and nothing has ever come close how great her 330 felt. Even if most BMW drivers don't care about steering feel, most drivers know a good feeling car when they drive one and that feeling sticks with them even when the move onto other cars. I have a feeling my boss is going to look into a modern day BMW when she's looking for her next car and find disappointment that it doesn't feel as good as her old 330.

That says something.
Timeless in design and road feel

[Tyresian]

Originally Posted by asus389

Audis are nice for what they are, but they historically haven't had much "feel" like Porsches even though they share the same parent. One of the biggest fails they have had recently from an enthusiast standpoint was not importing a manual version of the A3. It shares the same platform as the excellent Mk7 GTI, which is available in a manual - so it doesn't make much sense.

There have been rumors for years of a shrunk down Panamera style sedan called the Pajun. Not sure the current status.

That's true, it would be interesting to see, though even if they CAN bring the price down on there the service fees may still be terrible. But who knows.

My previous car was a 2010 Audi TTS and it was certainly the most fun car I've ever had, compared it with an S5 and found the TTS much more fun, but it was also the lightest weight and smallest car I've had. I really wish I could have found a Golf R or S3 when I was shopping for my 335. The 335 is a great car but I feel like I didn't get the value of what I'm paying after a year with it. 2 years left on the lease.

I will say the 335 was fantastic for a 1000 mile road trip I had to take earlier this year and my girlfriend certainly appreciated riding in it over the TTS as that was a fairly harsh ride for a passenger. Also I'm an automatic guy, call me lazy lol. But the DSG on the TTS was freakin perfect for how I drive, especially with the paddles, I only really used them to downshift when I was hitting roundabouts though.

[crawfordbay]

Originally Posted by pz619

Honestly I think it's what BMW struggles with the most. It's not like EPS can't have great feel. Take the Honda S2000 as an example.

Even the M235i which is suppose to be one of the better steering newer BMWs I feel it's not that good. Outside of the fact that there really isn't any feedback (good or bad) coming from the steering wheel I feel the diciest part is the variable steering. Variable Steering in tighter hairpins are vague at best. The fact is that I can't really predict how much turn in I'm going to get when I turn the wheel The ratio changes on numerous conditions and in the end it comes off feeling unnatural and unbalanced. Because it's not progressive I often find myself having to back the ratio off a bit because I've dialed in the wheel too much. This doesn't inspire confidence on tight mountain roads. Parking lots maybe, but that's not really why I bought the car.

This is precisely what I feel about my M235i. The variable steering constantly throws me off course, even after two years of driving. IMO the worst defect of the car and the main reason I'm not keeping it beyond the lease.

Too bad. The rest of the car had so much going for it.

[dbjb]

Sorry in advance as I haven't read the whole thread.

For those with EPS, do you feel anything real? I mean, when my tires are out of balance, that transfers to the steering wheel. With EPS, is that feeling also there? Or does it numb the steering and just provide artificial resistance based on road speed?

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by crawfordbay

This is precisely what I feel about my M235i. The variable steering constantly throws me off course, even after two years of driving. IMO the worst defect of the car and the main reason I'm not keeping it beyond the lease.

Too bad. The rest of the car had so much going for it.

How's that happening? You are not the first in this topic to be saying the same thing. You are inferring the rack is somehow an electronically controlled 'variable' ratio, and not a constant mechanical linkage. VSS is not a variable "drive by wire" system, (like previous variable steering) it is simply a mechanical variable cut rack, so nothing in the design to catch anyone out. It will always give the same amount of axle angle rotation for a given steering wheel rotation. Say you add 90-degrees of steering wheel rotation, it is always giving the same axle rotation, nothing more, nothing less. I appreciate VSS will be a different feel due to the progression of the rack speed off center, but it is never giving any 'odd amounts' of axle turn from one bend/corner to another.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by dbjb

Sorry in advance as I haven't read the whole thread.

For those with EPS, do you feel anything real? I mean, when my tires are out of balance, that transfers to the steering wheel. With EPS, is that feeling also there? Or does it numb the steering and just provide artificial resistance based on road speed?

EPS is not devoid of any feel in the steering wheel. It is an exaggeration to say EPS has no feel or feedback. It may not be the same response levels as HPAS and not to the liking of some users, but depending on the setup and specification there are varying degrees of feel and feedback.

For example, changes in road surface are felt in the steering wheel, well certainly not isolated from my hands in my car (5-Series). Hardly any difference in what I'd experience with BMW HPAS, say from my E91.

I park on a coarse gravel drive and if left a couple of days or so, after a decent drive, I get an experience similar to tire flat-spotting, where you clearly feel the off balance and shimmy, until the tires warm and become round again. I clearly feel that sensation through the wheel and know when it is smoothing out and completely gone. Very similar to the feel from previous HPAS systems.

The difference in feedback from the road surface is also felt with changes in tire pressure, due to tire temperature and tire softness, again similar to what you get from a BMW HPAS system.

[Fahrvergnügen]

EPS:



No Power Steering:



Hydraulic Steering:

[pz619]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

How's that happening? You are not the first in this topic to be saying the same thing. You are inferring the rack is somehow an electronically controlled 'variable' ratio, and not a constant mechanical linkage. VSS is not a variable "drive by wire" system, (like previous variable steering) it is simply a mechanical variable cut rack, so nothing in the design to catch anyone out. It will always give the same amount of axle angle rotation for a given steering wheel rotation. Say you add 90-degrees of steering wheel rotation, it is always giving the same axle rotation, nothing more, nothing less. I appreciate VSS will be a different feel due to the progression of the rack speed off center, but it is never giving any 'odd amounts' of axle turn from one bend/corner to another.

I know this is the passive system, but it still feels unnatural. I'm constantly dialing in the wrong steering angle because the it doesn't feel consistent to me. I think the car would be much better with no variable steering. After a year I still am not really sure if I aggressively turn the wheel, where is the car going to end up. Nearly every time I end up turning too aggressively and have to back the steering off.

I don't know if I'm in the minority on this one, but its a design feature that probably doesn't need to exist, at least not for one of their sportier cars. It feels over engineered to solve a problem on paper, but doesn't apply itself very well in real life.

But even excluding variable steering for the moment, I guess my whole point is that there are other manufacturers that do EPS better. I feel that BMW is now behind in this regard.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by pz619

I know this is the passive system, but it still feels unnatural. I'm constantly dialing in the wrong steering angle because the it doesn't feel consistent to me. I think the car would be much better with no variable steering. After a year I still am not really sure if I aggressively turn the wheel, where is the car going to end up. Nearly every time I end up turning too aggressively and have to back the steering off.

I don't know if I'm in the minority on this one, but its a design feature that probably doesn't need to exist, at least not for one of their sportier cars. It feels over engineered to solve a problem on paper, but doesn't apply itself very well in real life.

But even excluding variable steering for the moment, I guess my whole point is that there are other manufacturers that do EPS better. I feel that BMW is now behind in this regard.

I don't understand your issue at all. My M4 may not have exactly the same road feel as my E46 M3 had (although unlike most of the complainers here, I don't believe there is NO feel), but I have never had any issues like you describe of oversteering. My experience is that it is very accurate and goes where you point it.

[pz619]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

I don't understand your issue at all. My M4 may not have exactly the same road feel as my E46 M3 had (although unlike most of the complainers here, I don't believe there is NO feel), but I have never had any issues like you describe of oversteering. My experience is that it is very accurate and goes where you point it.

I don't know the M4 well enough to know if it has variable steering or not. But for me, it's an issue on the M235i. Is it an absolute dealbreaker? No. Is it confident inspiring to me? Also, no.

[ttomczak]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

It took quite some time to perfect the basic steering rack, so it will take some time to perfect electric steering too. Let's hope that when they do, cars aren't simply driving themselves.

And that is something we should all pray for, because at that point, steering feel will be a thing of the past...

[anotheran]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

I don't understand your issue at all. My M4 may not have exactly the same road feel as my E46 M3 had (although unlike most of the complainers here, I don't believe there is NO feel), but I have never had any issues like you describe of oversteering. My experience is that it is very accurate and goes where you point it.

I don't think the M4 has variable steering (VSS). It has it's own m servotronic and i believe it's speed sensitive only. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong

[Z K]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Go Drive an M2. If you can find one ! production not limited ... :

The M2 has by far the best iteration of EPS in a BMW. They did a good job finally of weighting the steering for nearly all situations, unlike my X1.

Over the course of several decades , BMW
steering has gone from great to excellent to total dud with EPS of the F30 to great again with the M2. With some more time I think it will get back to excellent. The M2 is really quite for EPS. It's not as good as mechanical though.

You probably haven't seen this article... They say the 228i has the best steering out of the M2, M235i and the 228i.

The M235i had no connection at all, M2 is more precise but lacks feedback and they liked the 228i the most.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...mparison-test/

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by anotheran

I don't think the M4 has variable steering (VSS). It has it's own m servotronic and i believe it's speed sensitive only. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong

F80/82 M Servotronic EPS is similar in function to the F3x VSS, in that it also has a variable cut rack which changes the ratio (to a faster ratio) after about 1/8th of a turn off center.

I personally don't understand how drivers who want a 'sportier' drive don't like a variable rack. After all it is not something new to EPS, variable ratio 'sport' racks have been around for years.

[raysspl]

As as software engineer, I can attest that writing software for more performance oriented EPS can be achieved.

[M3PGH]

BMW steering feels artificial , it is accuarte but artificial
have owned multiple cars with EPS including audi, MB, VW and i would say BMW is at the bottom reference steering feel and I have owned their M versions not the regular cars.I think their steering system design is bad , and they need to start fresh.

[RBNetEngr]

Originally Posted by Z K

Yes, feeling the road is important. You know if the road is rougher or smoother, the lines cut in the road that can affect traction limit, bumps, little road imperfections, gravel, if your tire sidewall is flexing and by how much etc.

As I said before, it doesn't matter for every day driving, but if you are driving at the limit, it's great feedback.

I remember back in 1988, when I purchased my first BMW (E30 318i). I had been driving a mid 70's Chevy, and didn't know or even understand the concept of steering feel. But as soon as I started driving that E30 I could sense a huge difference. The steering wheel became a feedback sensor, telling me what the front axle was experiencing. I could sense the change in pavement, even to the point that I could feel when a front tire ran over a stone (and through the steering wheel I could feel which tire it was!). I remember the first time I drove on a road that transitioned from paved to unpaved, and the change in road feel through the wheel. I think the E30 was the best car that I've ever driven, with regards to steering feel.

I currently have a '95 E36 M3, which also has 'telepathic' steering feel. When driving on the track, I instantly know when the front traction changes, when the front tires start to understeer, etc. It's definitely a combination of having a quality steering system that provides detailed feedback, as well as the driver skill needed to detect and interpret the feedback, but it's something that older BMWs delivered very well (and were famously known for it), but in the interest of pleasing the BMW 'luxury' buyers, who are more concerned with appearance and status rather than the performance of a true driver's machine, these aspects have been reduced or removed.

But as others have mentioned, there are vehicles on the market with EPS which have very good to excellent steering feel, Porsche being among the current list. The good news is that it's possible to have EPS and good steering feel, but it's up to the manufacturer to design the system properly. It would be great if BMW would either provide enough tuning options to dial in as much steering feel as you wanted, or if aftermarket tuners could do this. I have not driven the M2, but reviewers have commented that its' EPS system is one of the best that BMW currently produces, so there's hope for the future.

-rb

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by RBNetEngr

....
But as others have mentioned, there are vehicles on the market with EPS which have very good to excellent steering feel, Porsche being among the current list. The good news is that it's possible to have EPS and good steering feel, but it's up to the manufacturer to design the system properly. It would be great if BMW would either provide enough tuning options to dial in as much steering feel as you wanted, or if aftermarket tuners could do this. I have not driven the M2, but reviewers have commented that its' EPS system is one of the best that BMW currently produces, so there's hope for the future.

-rb

Yep

Porsche didn't get it right at first either, it took time for it all to come together. The Porsche purists hated their ESP when it first arrived, for many of the same reasons.

BMW will get it right too, I have faith. They're still working out the kinks...

[bmnut]

Originally Posted by pz619

Honestly I think it's what BMW struggles with the most. It's not like EPS can't have great feel. Take the Honda S2000 as an example.

Even the M235i which is suppose to be one of the better steering newer BMWs I feel it's not that good. Outside of the fact that there really isn't any feedback (good or bad) coming from the steering wheel I feel the diciest part is the variable steering. Variable Steering in tighter hairpins are vague at best. The fact is that I can't really predict how much turn in I'm going to get when I turn the wheel The ratio changes on numerous conditions and in the end it comes off feeling unnatural and unbalanced. Because it's not progressive I often find myself having to back the ratio off a bit because I've dialed in the wheel too much. This doesn't inspire confidence on tight mountain roads. Parking lots maybe, but that's not really why I bought the car.

Only seen this thread long after it was first posted but got my attention not just because I have VSS on my 435i (pretty sure it is the same system on an M235i?) but also due to "Highland Pete"'s responses!

VSS took me some time to get used to, not quite the length of 'transition time' from HPAS to EPS for some people (my son for example who oversteered so much at first I thought he was going to hit the roadside barrier on more than one occasion!) but VSS does tend to make you 're-calibrate' your steering wheel inputs, especially as Highland Pete mentions you go more than about 1/8th turn and then you are in that portion of the rack where the thread gap is changing.

I found it useful to me to drive the car in ever increasing tighter circles in a deserted car park to experience and note how much steering wheel input was required for any similar given turn or curve and then went out 'to play' on some of my favourite driving roads. Once your brain adapts to the 'new responses' you may well find (as I have) that VSS can be real fun with the added bonus that it tends to mask understeer pretty well if and when you cock up your bend assessment!

[jbrucebmw]

If its possible for the BMW engineers to tune the software for more feedback and feel, I wonder why they don't just do that in the sport and sport+ settings? Instead of making the vague steering heavier as current sport settings do, leave the weight alone and just enhance the feedback. I wish they would have gone down that line of questioning with the engineer to understand the issues with that approach.

Echoing another comment earlier in this thread. I had a chance to drive my '95 M3 this week and that car is a revelation in steering feel compared to BMWs latest. I hope BMW is listening. Lack of steering feel is really my number one issue with new BMWs.

[JoyRin]

Originally Posted by pz619

I know this is the passive system, but it still feels unnatural. I'm constantly dialing in the wrong steering angle because the it doesn't feel consistent to me. I think the car would be much better with no variable steering. After a year I still am not really sure if I aggressively turn the wheel, where is the car going to end up. Nearly every time I end up turning too aggressively and have to back the steering off.

I don't know if I'm in the minority on this one, but its a design feature that probably doesn't need to exist, at least not for one of their sportier cars. It feels over engineered to solve a problem on paper, but doesn't apply itself very well in real life.

But even excluding variable steering for the moment, I guess my whole point is that there are other manufacturers that do EPS better. I feel that BMW is now behind in this regard.

I get what hes talking about. I also drive an m235 and the steering 'ratio' does feel different when driving in the parking lot vs at speed. Im not familiar with how vss works in our cars but it does feel that you're turning the wheel less in parking lots say when you want to turn 90 degrees vs a non-vss system. Ive had a few loaners (all current model 3/4 series) and i have caught myself not giving enough steering when making the same 90 degree turns. In fact, i feel like every other car ive driven since, i have to make the same corrections.

Now, at speed...the vss system pretty much has relatively the same steering inputs as non vss systems. Although personally ive gotten used to it, i could see how it could throw someone off at low speed corners. Best way to cure this is to steer with your eyes. Its amazing no matter what car im in with different steering ratios, as long as im steering with my eyes, i have no problems switching back and forth.

Wanted to add: So any word on steering updates thru software? Just bc i got used to it doesnt mean i like it

[Z K]

Originally Posted by jbrucebmw

If its possible for the BMW engineers to tune the software for more feedback and feel, I wonder why they don't just do that in the sport and sport+ settings? Instead of making the vague steering heavier as current sport settings do, leave the weight alone and just enhance the feedback. I wish they would have gone down that line of questioning with the engineer to understand the issues with that approach.

That's something I hate about current BMW sport and sport + steering modes. All they do is make the steering wheel feel heavier. There is no change in feeling at all, it just feels artificially heavy with no feedback. Really no point to use Sport at all.

I guess some people like it because it feels like they are "working harder" to turn the wheel, it makes them feel sportier? haha