[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

That is my point, 500 HP in a short wheelbase sedan/coupe. Why have driver aids to curtail performance capabilities if the chassis is over-powered and cant handle it in the first place? That's why back in the day Ford built over-powered Mustangs and BMW built 3-Series that made the owner a better driver because of its chassis sophistication.

It's not a safety technology if it fucks up and puts you back in traffic where you did not intend to drive the car. I bought BMW because I pay attention to what I'm doing behind the steering wheel and the chassis helped me direct the car on my intended path. The only reason that safety shit is in the car is because the manufacturer puts a fucking screen on the dashboard and knows the driver is not paying attention to the road. It's liability avoidance technology, not safety technology. It's really not hard to keep a car in a lane if you are paying attention to the activity at hand.

The chassis is perfectly capable of handling it. People aren't. There's a difference. The M2/M3 chassis is best in class - by a mile. Not sure if you've driven a G8X car, but the chassis tuning on it is incredible.

It's absolutely safety technology and has absolutely NOTHING to do with putting the screens in the car - that's utter nonsense. Those are two completely different things. Not to mention you ignored me saying that you can TURN IT OFF. I agree it's not hard to keep a car in a lane - but there's a lot more bad drivers than there are good drivers. My wife is not a good driver, and she does NOT spend her time looking at screens either - she just isn't a good driver. For her (and countless other bad drivers) I'm thankful that BMW has these safety systems in place.

You caught me on an off-morning so I don't mean to come across aggressive - but you're sounding like a curmudgeon who doesn't know what he's talking about with some of the things you're saying (or perhaps your bias is making you blind). Do a comparison of even BMW's biggest car - the X7 - against its closest rivals. Everything else handles like a lumbering truck while the X7 by comparison feels quick and agile and sedan-like. Or hop into an M3 and experience the incredible chassis tuning and what it's capable of in comparison to everything else out today. The only thing in that class that goes toe to toe in driving dynamics with the M3 is the Giulia QF (and that fails as a car to do anything outside of its driving dynamics, i.e. crappy interior, questionable reliability, etc). Oh and by the way - the Giulia also has safety systems in place. Same with the Blackwing cars - visceral feeling cars that also have lane keep assist... the horror am I right?

I get it where some of the hate is coming from - compared to cars of yesterday, cars of today are becoming less and less visceral as they become more refined. You have things like shared platforms which are removing some of the character inherent in individual product lines in the past. I get all that. But that isn't exclusive to BMW - that's the car market as a whole. I take comfort in my modern 500hp, RWD manual transmission BMW with lane-keep assist (which I turn off).

[Brandoch]

"Back in my day" -as the old man shakes his cane-

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

The chassis is perfectly capable of handling it. People aren't. There's a difference. The M2/M3 chassis is best in class - by a mile. Not sure if you've driven a G8X car, but the chassis tuning on it is incredible.

It's absolutely safety technology and has absolutely NOTHING to do with putting the screens in the car - that's utter nonsense. Those are two completely different things. Not to mention you ignored me saying that you can TURN IT OFF. I agree it's not hard to keep a car in a lane - but there's a lot more bad drivers than there are good drivers. My wife is not a good driver, and she does NOT spend her time looking at screens either - she just isn't a good driver. For her (and countless other bad drivers) I'm thankful that BMW has these safety systems in place.

You caught me on an off-morning so I don't mean to come across aggressive - but you're sounding like a curmudgeon who doesn't know what he's talking about with some of the things you're saying (or perhaps your bias is making you blind). Do a comparison of even BMW's biggest car - the X7 - against its closest rivals. Everything else handles like a lumbering truck while the X7 by comparison feels quick and agile and sedan-like. Or hop into an M3 and experience the incredible chassis tuning and what it's capable of in comparison to everything else out today. The only thing in that class that goes toe to toe in driving dynamics with the M3 is the Giulia QF (and that fails as a car to do anything outside of its driving dynamics, i.e. crappy interior, questionable reliability, etc). Oh and by the way - the Giulia also has safety systems in place. Same with the Blackwing cars - visceral feeling cars that also have lane keep assist... the horror am I right?

I get it where some of the hate is coming from - compared to cars of yesterday, cars of today are becoming less and less visceral as they become more refined. You have things like shared platforms which are removing some of the character inherent in individual product lines in the past. I get all that. But that isn't exclusive to BMW - that's the car market as a whole. I take comfort in my modern 500hp, RWD manual transmission BMW with lane-keep assist (which I turn off).

I've stated numerous times is this thread driving dynamics are a result of computer-aided-driving as implemented throughout the industry. BMW didn't use to follow the industry; it led the industry. BMW used to emphatically state it did not platform share; it published both print and TV adds espousing that paradigm. One paid more for BMW because they were worth it since the cars were so far better at driving then the rest of the industry. And yes, I'm not anti: antilock-brakes, nor throttle by wire, nor pyro-fired seatbelts, nor airbags, blah blah blah. All passive systems that do not remove the driver from the driving activity.

You keep referring to ///M-cars, I'm discussing non-///M. There's nothing curmudgeon or "old man" (I prefer Boomer - thank you) about paying attention to the road rather than relying on the vehicle to watch the road for the driver while he watches the TV screen 12" from his face.

Old doesn't equal "hate".

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I've stated numerous times is this thread driving dynamics are a result of computer-aided-driving as implemented throughout the industry. BMW didn't use to follow the industry; it led the industry. BMW used to emphatically state it did not platform share; it published both print and TV adds espousing that paradigm. One paid more for BMW because they were worth it since the cars were so far better at driving then the rest of the industry.

You keep referring to ///M-cars, I'm discussing non-///M. There's nothing curmudgeon or "old man" (I prefer Boomer - thank you) about paying attention to the road rather than relying on the vehicle to watch the road for the driver while he watches the TV screen 12" from his face.

Old doesn't equal "hate".

The X7 is a non-///M car. Until Porsche comes out with is 3 row SUV, absolutely nothing comes close to the X7 in terms of driving dynamics in that class. It's an example of BMW not having lost its way - it's still top of its game within the confines of what it has to do to survive (and thrive) as a company.

Anyway, everyone platform shares - hell even Porsche platform shares with VW. It's the reality of staying in business. Lot of companies/people say a lot of things before reality smacks them in the face. Even Ferrari once "emphatically stated" that aerodynamics were for those who can't build engines.

The screen complaint is a short sighted one and has "boomer" written all over it. I rarely interact with the screen at all. All of the automated climate control programs - once set, can be forgotten about and now I'm free to focus on driving. I don't have to fiddle with climate control, hell I don't even need to look at the speedometer as it's in my HUD. Distracted driving occurred with the onset of cell phones, not because of these large screens. The large screens are totally independent of safety systems - they're there as a cost savings measure more than anything else (it's cheaper to stick a screen in the cabin than it is to manufacture and install individual buttons).

The screen may look big and imposing and distracting if you're not used to it... but once you drive one for weeks and months, you honestly forget it's even there. It becomes no more distracting than before it ever existed. I know - I have a Mini without a large screen - I don't feel any more distracted driving my BMWs than when I hop into my Mini.

Now if you want to complain about interior design and aesthetic as a result of the large screen - sure I'm with you. I prefer my infotainment better integrated into the dash. But it's a minor complaint and again, has absolutely no impact on my driving experience or my attentiveness.

Let's find some common ground here. I'm with you - I would love for an independent platform, hydraulic steering, lightweight, manual transmission, naturally aspirated sports sedan. But just because that doesn't exist today doesn't automatically mean BMW has "lost its way" or that it isn't producing absolute gems of cars. We can yearn for the past while still appreciating what the present has to offer.

[Brandoch]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I've stated numerous times is this thread driving dynamics are a result of computer-aided-driving as implemented throughout the industry. BMW didn't use to follow the industry; it led the industry. BMW used to emphatically state it did not platform share; it published both print and TV adds espousing that paradigm. One paid more for BMW because they were worth it since the cars were so far better at driving then the rest of the industry. And yes, I'm not anti: antilock-brakes, nor throttle by wire, nor pyro-fired seatbelts, nor airbags, blah blah blah. All passive systems that do not remove the driver from the driving activity.

You keep referring to ///M-cars, I'm discussing non-///M. There's nothing curmudgeon or "old man" (I prefer Boomer - thank you) about paying attention to the road rather than relying on the vehicle to watch the road for the driver while he watches the TV screen 12" from his face.

Old doesn't equal "hate".

It's government mandated safety systems. BMW has to use computer aided systems. There is no getting around that anymore. Just like emissions and fuel economy, they have to abide by the regulation. Size and weight, same thing.
The auto industry is not like the 1950s or even 1990s anymore. Everything is set by governing bodies and the automaker tries their best to give the vehicle its own personality while satisfying the regulations.
I don't know why its so hard for people to understand this. BMW is not the only manufacturer that doing this. Every single manufacturer is going through these same growing pains.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

The X7 is a non-///M car. Until Porsche comes out with is 3 row SUV, absolutely nothing comes close to the X7 in terms of driving dynamics in that class. It's an example of BMW not having lost its way - it's still top of its game within the confines of what it has to do to survive (and thrive) as a company.

Anyway, everyone platform shares - hell even Porsche platform shares with VW. It's the reality of staying in business. Lot of companies/people say a lot of things before reality smacks them in the face. Even Ferrari once "emphatically stated" that aerodynamics were for those who can't build engines.

The screen complaint is a short sighted one and has "boomer" written all over it. I rarely interact with the screen at all. All of the automated climate control programs - once set, can be forgotten about and now I'm free to focus on driving. I don't have to fiddle with climate control, hell I don't even need to look at the speedometer as it's in my HUD. Distracted driving occurred with the onset of cell phones, not because of these large screens. The large screens are totally independent of safety systems - they're there as a cost savings measure more than anything else (it's cheaper to stick a screen in the cabin than it is to manufacture and install individual buttons).

The screen may look big and imposing and distracting if you're not used to it... but once you drive one for weeks and months, you honestly forget it's even there. It becomes no more distracting than before it ever existed. I know - I have a Mini without a large screen - I don't feel any more distracted driving my BMWs than when I hop into my Mini.

Now if you want to complain about interior design and aesthetic as a result of the large screen - sure I'm with you. I prefer my infotainment better integrated into the dash. But it's a minor complaint and again, has absolutely no impact on my driving experience or my attentiveness.

Let's find some common ground here. I'm with you - I would love for an independent platform, hydraulic steering, lightweight, manual transmission, naturally aspirated sports sedan. But just because that doesn't exist today doesn't automatically mean BMW has "lost its way" or that it isn't producing absolute gems of cars. We can yearn for the past while still appreciating what the present has to offer.

I’m in on the tail end of this I haven’t read all of the posts, but I just want to make a couple of comments. The pre-LCI G20 dash is indescribably better than the LCI. It has too many buttons for me and not enough knobs, but that’s one of my quirks. Other than that I was and am a fan of the pre-LCI dash and its integration of the iDrive screen. It doesn’t bother me one bit to acknowledge that even though I prefer to F3x dash the G20 iDrive screen is positioned in a more convenient way than it is in the F3x.

One of the hallmarks of BMW is superior design and the LCI G20 iPad screen is the first time I’ve seen BMW utterly abdicate its commitment to good design. It still boggles my mind how they can put out a dashboard with ZERO design!! It is an absolute disgrace to BMW and, of course, now they’ve adopted the ZERO design dashboard across their entire fleet. The Chevy Bolt has a better dashboard design than BMW has today!!!!! It makes BMW look pitiful and like they are now satisfied to phone it in.

Just a quick note about the climate controls and the overall lack of physical controls. SO MANY things that should have physical controls FOR SAFETY OF OPERATION require you to go into a touchscreen menu to deal with. I’m one of the ones who is a little different than a lot of folks, I have never found an automated HVAC system that I can set and forget and be comfortable. There are too many variables that occur when driving a car. Mostly related to the intensity of the sun at various times of day, both in summer and winter. I always adjust my HVAC system manually and I make adjustments as I drive. I can’t be going into a menu or looking at a screen to make sure my finger touches the exact right spot. I use the center temperature adjustment wheel on a very frequent basis. Manufacturers are finding that 100% touch controls do reduce safe operation and increase driving distraction and risk. Volkswagen is an example. After pushback from their customers they are bringing back some of their lost buttons and knobs.

Both of these things are decisions BMW didn’t have to make. They chose to make them and become followers of the crowd rather than be leaders. This is evidence BMW no longer knows who they are the way they once did.

It seems we Boomers are the last ones who are willing to call out that change for the sake of change doesn’t automatically make the change good. Some change is downright stupid!! And that’s a fact!!!

[IanH]

The new interior is awesome and of you don't like it just keep your old car lol. The screen is easy to use, fast and responsive, the auto climate control has tons of customization and you don't have to change any settings once you adjust your preferences. Just put it on auto.

If you are changing your climate controls because of the sun, you should get your windshield tinted with air80

Hilarious to see the older folks decry the death of bmw over interior features that are probably one of the main reasons I switched to bmw after over a decade of Audi.

Best yet, bmw still gives you a competent and complete physical control for the screen.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The ADAS mistook the lane as the road shoulder (there was none - it is a curbed city street) and tried to yank me right, right into the main roadway lane with a car approaching. That event, Sir, is not the behavior of an "Ultimate Driving Machine"; it is the behavior of an POS automobile designed for the lowest common denominator of poor driver (i.e. those who buy Oldsmobiles and Subarus).

ADAS is not meant to be fully autonomous and certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't be ready to correct it when it makes a mistake. If you lack the attention or strength to correct it, I suggest you turn it off. I have yet to experience ADAS in bimmers or any of my other cars do anything dangerous that driver attention doesn't remedy. I certainly turn it off on my M cars. This isn't poor design, this is a driver who doesn't like how it behaves.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

but they suck to drive and drive no better than a Subaru or Oldsmobile.

Hoo'effin'ray!

lol. I can’t even begin to describe how delusional you are.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by jmg

ADAS is not meant to be fully autonomous and certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't be ready to correct it when it makes a mistake. If you lack the attention or strength to correct it, I suggest you turn it off. I have yet to experience ADAS in bimmers or any of my other cars do anything dangerous that driver attention doesn't remedy. I certainly turn it off on my M cars. This isn't poor design, this is a driver who doesn't like how it behaves.

If you actually just pay attention to driving the car, you don't have to be ready to take control when it makes a mistake.

The collision avoidance in my Bronco is not able to be switched off. Its sensitivity is adjustable though and I set it to the lowest sensitivity. Yet one day some OTA update executed and reset the sensitivity to max, which I was not aware of. I live on a rural road that runs next to a small river, where fisherman park on the side of the road when they fish the river. One day the collision avoidance lights up and scares the shit out of me. There was no car in front of me, just the parked cars on the side of the road. The system mistook the parked cars as stationary traffic that I could hit. It scared the shit out of me because I was "WTF! what does it see that I don't?" Well, it fucked up, there was no pending collision. That was that day I turned off the Bronco's connectivity so Ford wouldn't update the system and unknown to me reset the ADAS sensitivity.

ADAS - liability avoidance because of the big TV screen.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I’m in on the tail end of this I haven’t read all of the posts, but I just want to make a couple of comments. The pre-LCI G20 dash is indescribably better than the LCI. It has too many buttons for me and not enough knobs, but that’s one of my quirks. Other than that I was and am a fan of the pre-LCI dash and its integration of the iDrive screen. It doesn’t bother me one bit to acknowledge that even though I prefer to F3x dash the G20 iDrive screen is positioned in a more convenient way than it is in the F3x.

One of the hallmarks of BMW is superior design and the LCI G20 iPad screen is the first time I’ve seen BMW utterly abdicate its commitment to good design. It still boggles my mind how they can put out a dashboard with ZERO design!! It is an absolute disgrace to BMW and, of course, now they’ve adopted the ZERO design dashboard across their entire fleet. The Chevy Bolt has a better dashboard design than BMW has today!!!!! It makes BMW look pitiful and like they are now satisfied to phone it in.

Just a quick note about the climate controls and the overall lack of physical controls. SO MANY things that should have physical controls FOR SAFETY OF OPERATION require you to go into a touchscreen menu to deal with. I’m one of the ones who is a little different than a lot of folks, I have never found an automated HVAC system that I can set and forget and be comfortable. There are too many variables that occur when driving a car. Mostly related to the intensity of the sun at various times of day, both in summer and winter. I always adjust my HVAC system manually and I make adjustments as I drive. I can’t be going into a menu or looking at a screen to make sure my finger touches the exact right spot. I use the center temperature adjustment wheel on a very frequent basis. Manufacturers are finding that 100% touch controls do reduce safe operation and increase driving distraction and risk. Volkswagen is an example. After pushback from their customers they are bringing back some of their lost buttons and knobs.

Both of these things are decisions BMW didn’t have to make. They chose to make them and become followers of the crowd rather than be leaders. This is evidence BMW no longer knows who they are the way they once did.

It seems we Boomers are the last ones who are willing to call out that change for the sake of change doesn’t automatically make the change good. Some change is downright stupid!! And that’s a fact!!!

I think the dashboard designs in my M3 and X7 are pretty awesome and class leading. Do I wish the infotainment was better integrated? sure. But the overall design is still good and fit/finish is top notch with superb material quality. I don't find the screen distracting at all - I rarely interact with it as everything is more or less automated anyway and any information I need is in my direct field of view via HUD. At the end of the day, it's clutch in, upshift, clutch out, give it some gas and I'm off - simple as that.

You may think it's awful, but I love my M3.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I think the dashboard designs in my M3 and X7 are pretty awesome and class leading. Do I wish the infotainment was better integrated? sure. But the overall design is still good and fit/finish is top notch with superb material quality. I don't find the screen distracting at all - I rarely interact with it as everything is more or less automated anyway and any information I need is in my direct field of view via HUD. At the end of the day, it's clutch in, upshift, clutch out, give it some gas and I'm off - simple as that.

You may think it's awful, but I love my M3.

Attachment 3624316

definitely not class leading and pretty ugly screen attachment/interface with obvious bracket but that is only my opinion. Why have dash surface behind screen you can’t see and is pia to clean? garbage design and very cheap

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

If you actually just pay attention to driving the car, you don't have to be ready to take control when it makes a mistake.

The collision avoidance in my Bronco is not able to be switched off. Its sensitivity is adjustable though and I set it to the lowest sensitivity. Yet one day some OTA update executed and reset the sensitivity to max, which I was not aware of. I live on a rural road that runs next to a small river, where fisherman park on the side of the road when they fish the river. One day the collision avoidance lights up and scares the shit out of me. There was no car in front of me, just the parked cars on the side of the road. The system mistook the parked cars as stationary traffic that I could hit. It scared the shit out of me because I was "WTF! what does it see that I don't?" Well, it fucked up, there was no pending collision. That was that day I turned off the Bronco's connectivity so Ford wouldn't update the system and unknown to me reset the ADAS sensitivity.

ADAS - liability avoidance because of the big TV screen.

If you can’t turn it off, I agree, that’s not something any car should be doing.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Mavus

definitely not class leading and pretty ugly screen attachment/interface with obvious bracket but that is only my opinion. Why have dash surface behind screen you can’t see and is pia to clean? garbage design and very cheap

Thanks.

Who's class leading? Mercedes with its plastic galore interior and poor build quality? Audi with their funky new triple screens? Cadillac with their fake leather dash and equally as large screen? Alfa with their poorly put together interior? I'm struggling here.

You could make an argument for Porsche and their better integrated screens but that's not in the same class - totally different pricing bracket.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Thanks.

Who's class leading? Mercedes with its plastic galore interior and poor build quality? Audi with their funky new triple screens? Cadillac with their fake leather dash and equally as large screen? Alfa with their poorly put together interior? I'm struggling here.

You could make an argument for Porsche and their better integrated screens but that's not in the same class - totally different pricing bracket.

There is a dash layout/design and materials selection separately. Materials are fine but the dash layout with that screen dumped on it does not belong in that car. Imagine how much more sphistcated it would look with recessed screen and having right half angled twrd driver. I think new S5 will have something like that but bmw should have done it initially. They’ve done it on e9x with double hump.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Mavus

There is a dash layout/design and materials selection separately. Materials are fine but the dash layout with that screen dumped on it does not belong in that car. Imagine how much more sphistcated it would look with recessed screen and having right half angled twrd driver. I think new S5 will have something like that but bmw should have done it initially. They’ve done it on e9x with double hump.

I agree - I would have preferred a better integrated screen. But having owned both my M3 and X7 for a couple years now with this layout - I honestly don't even notice the screen anymore (I know, must be mind boggling for someone who isn't used to it). But what I do notice every day I step into either car is how high quality the materials are and how well it's all put together. And I quite like the design too all things considered. To call it ugly is crazy to me - even more so when considering some of the other offerings in the class.

The new Audi design does not look good to me. Yes it's slightly more recessed, but in a really awkward way. Almost as if they're checking a box on screen integration, but in reality it's about as tacked on as any other car in the class. I'll reserve judgement until I sit inside one.

[IanH]

Yall completely delusional if you think the BMW dash isnt well designed.

I hear this complaint all the time "everything should be in the dash board"

Well, its not, and nobody is, and they arent going back that way for a long time. We're not talking about what cars are gonna look like in 10-20 years. These are cars that are on sale today, compare to cars in the past 3 years and maybe cars in the next 3 years and thats all you really rationally can equate. The BMW ID8/8.5 dash is in the top 10% of avaialble dash designs.

The new Audi interior is mega trash, and I say that as an Audi die hard. Steering wheel and wheel controls BAD
center console BAD
display layout and instrument cluster BAD
Infotainment system function/complexity BAD

The interior pictured above is going to send Audi into a bigger tailspin than its already in.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Thanks.

Who's class leading? Mercedes with its plastic galore interior and poor build quality? Audi with their funky new triple screens? Cadillac with their fake leather dash and equally as large screen? Alfa with their poorly put together interior? I'm struggling here.

You could make an argument for Porsche and their better integrated screens but that's not in the same class - totally different pricing bracket.

The fact that pretty much everyone’s dashboard “design” today is crap doesn’t change the fact that BMW’s is, too. It’s sad the comparison is whose is the least bad.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

The fact that pretty much everyone’s dashboard “design” today is crap doesn’t change the fact that BMW’s is, too. It’s sad the comparison is whose is the least bad.

Except it's not. Can they do things a bit better? yes, I agree there. But to call it crap is just crazy.

I don't want to argue with you because I know you're a nice guy, it's just a bit disheartening to hear. You must have hated it when I gave you a ride in my M3

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Except it's not. Can they do things a bit better? yes, I agree there. But to call it crap is just crazy.

I don't want to argue with you because I know you're a nice guy, it's just a bit disheartening to hear. You must have hated it when I gave you a ride in my M3

I didn’t hate riding in it at all and I understand why you are passionate about it, but I still can’t stand the grille and the dash is an absolute deal breaker for me.

No serious person can claim there is one ounce of design in the way the iPad is stuck to the dashboard. It’s the antithesis of design.

[Vindicator3]

Yeah, ask me again in a year (I pick my car up in early January), but regardless of what others are offering today, I'm not a fan of the one giant screen that is both dash and infotainment. I'd rather have the same infotainment screen but with a separate traditional analog dash, or if it has to be a video screen dash, I'd rather the gauges resemble a traditional analog speedo and tach than these that look like they were borrowed from Tron.

But all in all that's a nit and I'm very much looking forward to my new wheels.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I didn’t hate riding in it at all and I understand why you are passionate about it, but I still can’t stand the grille and the dash is an absolute deal breaker for me.

No serious person can claim there is one ounce of design in the way the iPad is stuck to the dashboard. It’s the antithesis of design.

I like how my more integrated iDrive7 in my G82 looks, but this doesn't look bad or lazy to me. It looks different. The floating tacked on screen look is actually a design language to reduce visual mass and contrast the functional display screens over the dash itself. I totally understand that people don't like it, but I think it's interesting.