[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

What are you talking about? The Cayman is $5k cheaper than my M2 stickers at. Cayman S is only $6k more. I drove both; Cayman has better steering and build quality, M2 has the better engine. Hate that you can't really tune the Cayman for more power. DCT for the M2 is better on track than the PDK in the Cayman. I love the involved drive of the Cayman S but bottom line is that it's just too slow for me in a straight line, and lap times are barely any faster than the M2.

Bought the M2, putting my money where my mouth is.

Perfect because you cannot find a Porsche that is not littered with a $hit ton of options.

You get what you pay for regardless.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

The markets say otherwise. The financial picture abruptly changed over a year ago and throughout the following 11 months and while BMW stock lost 47% of its value, from 123.75 to 66, the PR continued unabated about how "everything's great!" (just like it does to this moment). At the moment BMW stock is still down ~40% from it's high last summer and still stuck in a solid downtrend. After breaking the simple 20-day low off the all-time high, it's never looked back. Even with it's dividend against the position, it's proved to be a fantastic short sale for the past 14 months for those trading EU stocks (not me...unfortunately).

But of course this is all invalid too if we listen to the spewing PR on this forum. Nothing matters as BMW is "perfect" -- the rest of the world just doesn't understand. Just like the slow realization that they have the wrong product set for the market of today.... you want us to believe that's not true either. Everything is fine. According to this logic, the market for BMW stock is wrong too, the market for BMW cars simply has it wrong also, and every single 3-4 decade long time BMW enthusiast is of course absolutely wrong in their constructive criticism also as they have been instructed repeatedly. Stubborn folks they are apparently. Similarly, the market for BMW stock is one stubborn beast as it refuses to comply with this wonderful, glowing PR.

Dude, BMW stocks over 100 is the exception, not the norm, if you don't want to measure their performance against a realistic value, then that's your shout. But if you're going to wave the enthusiast flag, and whinge about stock prices, then you need to up your meds.

[Zirenz2006]

Originally Posted by facembanijung

The day BMW tarnish their iconic product, we know it will go down sooner or later.

Civic has better interior than 3-series. A lot of competitors handle better than 3-series. Go back to E46 recipe.

Civic has better interior than 3-series???

What are u smoking??

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Matski

Dude, BMW stocks over 100 is the exception, not the norm, if you don't want to measure their performance against a realistic value, then that's your shout. But if you're going to wave the enthusiast flag, and whinge about stock prices, then you need to up your meds.

All executives at the company are strongly measured against their company's stock price since like so many other multi-nationals today, financialization is all that matters. Attaching one's feelings to a given price level is a guaranteed long-term losing plan. After all at one point BMW stock over 30 was "the exception not the norm", then it became 50, then it became...etc. The value of 100 has no meaning to the market other than what people attach to it themselves...just like all those prior levels.

Similarly when Apple stock broke above 100 for the first time, one could take your same position. Since it has split 14:1 since that time, 100 split-adjusted is 7.14 in today's price and AAPL is at ~93 today having been as high as 134 (1876 pre-split adjusted). So since AAPL had an entire history since it IPO'd in 1980 for more than 20 years before getting to "100", thinking there was something special about that value would have missed multiplying your stock value by over 18 times. Recognize that natural human bias expressed and work to overcome it.

[Faizee]

Wow reading these comments I realized that this is actually the "I hate bmw but I'm going to join a BMW forum" forum. Bmw makes stunning cars, so does Merc and so does Audi.

[Law]

Originally Posted by RVS

People have too much stigma against BMW on this forum. If you don't like the current line up then get something else lol. Stop complaining.

Excellent suggestion.
BMW should tell their fan-base and loyal/returning customers to screw off.
That'll increase sales real quick!

Originally Posted by Faizee

Wow reading these comments I realized that this is actually the "I hate bmw but I'm going to join a BMW forum" forum. Bmw makes stunning cars, so does Merc and so does Audi.

It's just tough love.
If anything, the commentary here only demonstrates how much passion and enthusiasm the BMW community has towards the brand.

[bodonx]

Originally Posted by Zirenz2006

Civic has better interior than 3-series???

What are u smoking??

Have u sit inside new civic and basic 320i?

[FogCityM3]

And "game changing" news from the i-division:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/bmw-i8-...ll-years-away/

[Bosozoku]

Originally Posted by Jason

"We are adjusting our production plans and reallocating more SUVs to the U.S.," CFO Friedrich Eichiner told analysts last week ..."

F*** the trucks.
Allocate more M2s!

[R N M]

i Division was a HUGE Mistake by BMW.

All that money wasted could of went to improving 3, 5, 7 and making a true M8 sportscar to battle the AMG GTS, Audi R8 and 911.

Lexus made same mistake 10 years ago with Hybrid models - they invested so much $$$ and nobody bought them - has anybody ever seen LS600h LOL - its a unicorn! That generation of Lexus cars really suffered and they had to delay the new LS, SC, GX, and LX. Their whole engine lineup is at least a decade behind bec they bet so much on hybrids.

[Xiaoxi]

A lot of people slagging on the current gen interiors.

I for one love the current gen interiors. I love that it is conservative and simple. In fact, I wish it was more so. Please get rid of CD player and all those buttons that are never used. Otherwise, the interior is great. The M style steering wheel is my favorite wheel design ever.

With that said, aside from the F22 and F8x there is nothing that I like in the lineup. The F22 may be the last new BMW I ever buy, as manuals will almost certainly be phased out next iteration. I'll probably get an E46 M3 down the road.

Please take a lesson from the ND Miata on how to remain true to the heritage.

[R N M]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

In the Chinese market on the eve of the Beijing Autoshow we held the annual BMW M night in an auditorium not just full of media and BMW executives from Munich and China but also enthusiasts who had not one complaint about the brand or its direction.

Right - so lets listen to the Chinese who NEVER experienced any of the previous ///M products, they know best!

[R N M]

Originally Posted by Xiaoxi

A lot of people slagging on the current gen interiors.

I for one love the current gen interiors. I love that it is conservative and simple. In fact, I wish it was more so. Please get rid of CD player and all those buttons that are never used. Otherwise, the interior is great. The M style steering wheel is my favorite wheel design ever.

With that said, aside from the F22 and F8x there is nothing that I like in the lineup. The F22 may be the last new BMW I ever buy, as manuals will almost certainly be phased out next iteration. I'll probably get an E46 M3 down the road.

Please take a lesson from the ND Miata on how to remain true to the heritage.

Its the QUALITY of the interiors which sucks - I personally dont mind the style / design. I LOVE iDrive and M steering wheels!
My F80 M3 with 2,500 miles has creaking noises all over bec of defective window seals - that is unacceptable!

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Xiaoxi

A lot of people slagging on the current gen interiors.

I for one love the current gen interiors. I love that it is conservative and simple. In fact, I wish it was more so. Please get rid of CD player and all those buttons that are never used.

I hope that you know that there is no comparison between your MP3 and a cd.

[Xiaoxi]

Originally Posted by R N M

Its the QUALITY of the interiors which sucks - I personally dont mind the style / design. I LOVE iDrive and M steering wheels!
My F80 M3 with 2,500 miles has creaking noises all over bec of defective window seals - that is unacceptable!

I'm ok with cheap interiors if it means keeping the weight down. And the interior feel, while not special, is not cheap either. Can't say there's been any creaking issues in my 2er. 1+ year, it's been very solid.

Originally Posted by Tracus

I hope that you know that there is no comparison between your MP3 and a cd.

Sorry, but I can't take this seriously. You're opining about audiophile level audio quality in an environment that is inherently and extremely compromised. You cannot tell the difference when the car is in motion. Also, I almost never have the stereo on. Much rather listen to the engine and everything else. Regardless of my personal preferences, no one is using the CD tray.

By the way, my formal background is in music production.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by Xiaoxi

By the way, my formal background is in music production.

And your informal background? Foreground? Midground? lol

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Xiaoxi

I'm ok with cheap interiors if it means keeping the weight down. And the interior feel, while not special, is not cheap either.

Sorry, but I can't take this seriously. You're opining about audiophile level audio quality in an environment that is inherently and extremely compromised. You cannot tell the difference when the car is in motion. Also, I almost never have the stereo on. Much rather listen to the engine and everything else. Regardless of my personal preferences, no one is using the CD tray.

By the way, my formal background is in music production.

1. I always use the CD tray on long distance trips.
2. Sorry for you, please read and come back with the proper knowledge. Don't know your age but started with vinyl, went through tape, reel to reel, videodisc, cd, SACD, FLAC, etc., I know what I am talking about. Please go, listen a proper vinyl and some reel-to-reel tapes, eventually an excellent tube amplifier with gold coaxial internal cables and a proper toroidal transformer on the power supply and come back to us. Pick some excellent speakers with that.
3. I feel sorry for you and your background, you know nothing in regards with music.
4. If you can not tell the difference even if the car is in motion, then your hearing is not good, or a good sound system is something that you probably never experienced. Look and take notes, not because the environment is compromised BMW installs Bang and Olufsen in their vehicles. Is because they can work and offer a proper sound environment. There is a lot of engineering that goes in the sound system of the car, it is purely ignorant to discard such engineering with such improper statement. I strongly suggest to go in a Jaguar dealership and ask for the best Meridian TriField sound system they have. Drive the car. You can try a Burmester with Porsche or the BeoSound from MB, that will do. Or Naim from Bentley. After that you will either realize that you either missed the pleasure of sound, either your hearing is numb.

I apologize for the off-topic.

[Xiaoxi]

Originally Posted by Tracus

2. Sorry for you, please read and come back with the proper knowledge. Don't know your age but started with vinyl, went through tape, reel to reel, videodisc, cd, SACD, FLAC, etc., I know what I am talking about. Please go, listen a proper vinyl and some reel-to-reel tapes, eventually an excellent tube amplifier with gold coaxial internal cables and a proper toroidal transformer on the power supply and come back to us. Pick some excellent speakers with that.

This is completely irrelevant to the car environment.

3. I feel sorry for you and your background, you know nothing in regards with music.

if you say so, bud.

4. If you can not tell the difference even if the car is in motion, then your hearing is not good, or a good sound system is something that you probably never experienced.

There's a time and place for quality listening. In my treated studio, with flat response DynAudio monitors triangulated properly, sure, there are significant differences between lossless and 160kbps mp3. In my car with the engine, road noise, other cars, wind, I don't need to kid myself.

I strongly suggest to go in a Jaguar dealership and ask for the best Meridian TriField sound system they have. Drive the car. You can try a Burmester with Porsche or the BeoSound from MB, that will do. Or Naim from Bentley. After that you will either realize that you either missed the pleasure of sound, either your hearing is numb.

You have your preferences, that's fine. But I'm driving for the driving experience. None of this luxury has any enticement to me. Most have stated that they wish BMW restored some of their older driving dynamics. Don't think anyone would object if they allocated more resources to better steering feel into the electric steering rack rather than some trivial improvement in speaker positioning.

I won't pretend to have perfect hearing. But then again, most people's hearing are compromised. If you happen to have pristine hearing, congratulations. But real world experience confirms that most people cannot tell the difference even in ideal situations, much less in a car. And again, most people are not playing CDs. Your pedantry simply do not change these cold hard facts.

By all means, go buy a Bentley or MB land yacht if audio is such a priority to you. If these kinds of people shifted away from BMW, that might not be such a bad thing.

[bodonx]

The day BMW forum debates about sound systems, ultimate driving machine has died

[N & M]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The front wheel drive vehicles are not a sales disaster where did you hear this nonsense from?
The 2er Active Tourer and Gran Tourer are the best selling 2er models globally.
They are also responsible for first time BMW vehicle sales.
We see rises for these vehicles every month since launch. The Active Tourer since launch in 2014 achieved its 100,000 unit goal ahead of the equivalent Mercedes-Benz B-Klasse which took two years to reach 100,000 units.

We now manufacture the Active Tourer in China where it has had equal success.
The whole point of the UKL+ is to provide profitability to MINI something which was not successful over previous MINI generations. The money was made by MINIs multiple personalisation options.

The upcoming China Sedan is projected to be a huge success with early clinics already excited and have placed orders for the new car which launches at the end of the year.

Contrary to everybody's opinion because we are not doing what everybody else is doing BMW is not in trouble.
We are in the opening stages of the full refresh of the model line, and more importantly by the time SUV models reach their global high by 2019. The full BMW X line will have been renewed,refreshed and expanded.

What you say is logical and follows current sales trends, however, BMW has worked hard since the 70s to develop a brand with a particular image and feel.

The 3 is core to this (global) image and many feel that attention was diverted elsewhere to grow at the expense of its historic sales dominance and driver appeal of this and other icons. Many BMW loyalists believe that this shift will transform what they think is amazing product to just another luxury transportation commodity that trades on image rather than substance.

Many BMW insiders share this anxiety as well and history has shown when your rival Mercedes abandoned its core brand values of quality and engineering they suffered to BMW and Audi who were doing the opposite.

[bodonx]

Originally Posted by N & M

What you say is logical and follows current sales trends, however, BMW has worked hard since the 70s to develop a brand with a particular image and feel.

The 3 is core to this (global) image and many feel that attention was diverted elsewhere to grow at the expense of its historic sales dominance and driver appeal of this and other icons. Many BMW loyalists believe that this shift will transform what they think is amazing product to just another luxury transportation commodity that trades on image rather than substance.

Many BMW insiders share this anxiety as well and history has shown when your rival Mercedes abandoned its core brand values of quality and engineering they suffered to BMW and Audi who were doing the opposite.

Exactly. MB lost its brand value in early 2000's when they partnered with Chrysler and cut cost.

Lexus and BMW beat them for a while. MB realized the mistake and fixed the core values which are quality and luxury.

Now, they're back.

[cc3]

The key test for me is - other than some of the M range - which models are the 'Ultimate Driving Machines'?