[gonzo]

THIS IS A TEST:

Cut and paste boundaries.

The usage of

THIS CONCLUDES THE TEST.

[Z4inAZ]

Looks really ugly to me. Never understood most car enthusiast's obsession with Alfa Romeo and any touring model car.

Alfas are nice looking in general but there are better looking cars than Alfa...

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by Z4inAZ

Looks really ugly to me. Never understood most car enthusiast's obsession with Alfa Romeo and any touring model car.

Alfas are nice looking in general but there are better looking cars than Alfa...

Is there anyting to understand?


Finally it seems that yes, because this question only rises in regard to Alfa.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Levi

Why should everybody be of your opinion GTF?

Your opinion is scientific truth?

No, of course not... although I try to analyse things in a scientific way whenever is possible.

But because I'm not a fanboy and I'm open minded I can see things with greater distance than those that have some kind of involvement with a specific car brand, being it emotional, economical or both.

Take Advevo's example... I've learned from him a lot through his videos, he and his videos are the reason why I've registered in this forum in the first place back in 2007 when I was driving a Miata and thinking about replacing it. I start left foot braking thanks to him, now it's like I can't stop doing it. I'm a big fan of him but in a sound way because although he seems a very nice guy I can also criticise him. And, that's my point here.

If you read Advevo opinions about the importance of car weight and how he feels about it to the extent of saying that a car weighting above 1300 kg is not 'tossable' enough and how he, like you, believed that a turbocharged car was not the answer after owning and race driving great NA engines you would realize that he couldn't never own one BMW 1M, let alone two...

Except if you acknowledge that he has some kind of relationship with the brand either emotional or economical because he raced BMWs and he even wanted to be an official test driver for BMW, which I think would be very advantageous for BMW btw and fantastic for us enthusiasts.

So, it's very easy for me to detect when someone is expressing his/her completely biased and not imparcial opinions for the sake of his/her emotional or economical relationship with the brand.

But, if even Advevo, an experienced and professional driver, can change his opinions about what makes a good driver's car after many years of motor racing why not the rest of us mere enthusiasts?!

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

What about the 'third pedal'?! What is the importance of a 'third pedal' which is basically in either ON or OFF positions that you don't modulate like you have to do with the brake or throttle pedals when compared with the gains you get in terms of acceleration and fuel-efficiency from a double-clutch gearbox with paddle-shifts that you still control manually?! It's your call when to change a gear, you are not robbed from the necessary driving involvement, on the contrary, your left foot is now totally available to assist you in the far more demanding left-foot braking exercise because you have to modulate the pressure on the pedal and have the necessary sensitivity that will give you that extra control over the car.

So what is there to loose.... a 'stick' in your hand?!

Like I said you just don't understand. Third pedal, rowing gears, heel-toe. You know what real petrol heads like.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

Like I said you just don't understand. Third pedal, rowing gears, heel-toe. You know what real petrol heads like.

Look, I heel-toe in every gear down change since practically I've started to learn how to drive, I do it without even trying, either when driving fast or slow, it's as natural to me as breathing.

You are talking to someone who not only heel-toes but also more recently left-foot brakes every single day he drives his car, several times per day and almost every 365 days of the year, therefore I'm obviously very good at it.

So, don't tell me that I don't understand it when I tell you that all this foot work is useless and even ridiculous when you can simply manually operate paddle-shifts without even taking your hands off the steering wheel - where they are in fact needed - in order to be quicker and more fuel-efficient at the same time.

Maybe, the difference here is that I can be a 'petrol head' as much as I can be a 'diesel head' or even more!

[Soorena]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

Man, it's your hands that make the gear shift only this time through paddle-shifts... it only can be boring if your mind is slow thinking.

The Getrag DCT that my 458 has is very great unit and i bet you can't find a better DCT out there than this one. Super fast shifts. No computer Interference. You can drop a couple of gears FAST when you enter a tight corner etc... But there has never been even 1 day that i didn't wish it had a manual. The feel of rowing gears YOURSELF is something that can not be replaced by any automated manuals. Have you ever driven a car with a great manual car? A S2000 or even a Miata?

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

Levi,

This was a 'merely' 1.5-liter, inline four, turbocharged engine which gave BMW their only F1 championship title:





I guess it wasn't very fuel-efficient...

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That merely 1.5 liter ran on 3-5 bar of boost. Do you know what that even means? It means the engine had more air in it than those naturally aspirated V12's that others had. And check this pic out :

Can you say lag? That engine had bags of lag. Do you know any street engine that makes 250 HP at 7000 RPM, and then gets a 650 extra HP by the time it hits 9700 RPM? Comparing a race engine that only lived for 1 race to a street engine is not valid at all.

And fuel efficiency? Really? I don't know when exactly things started going in wrong direction, but this demand for fuel efficient sports car is just hilarious. Want something fuel efficient? Buy something else. No one forced you to buy a sports car that doesn't go take you far on a tank.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Soorena

The Getrag DCT that my 458 has is very great unit and i bet you can't find a better DCT out there than this one. Super fast shifts. No computer Interference. You can drop a couple of gears FAST when you enter a tight corner etc...

Except for some reliability issues...

Originally Posted by Soorena

But there has never been even 1 day that i didn't wish it had a manual. The feel of rowing gears YOURSELF is something that can not be replaced by any automated manuals. Have you ever driven a car with a great manual car? A S2000 or even a Miata?

If you had read my posts you would know the answer to that question. As for the 'glorious days' of the good old manual 'stick' you could say the exact same thing about how special a non-power assisted steering wheel - that the Alfa Romeo 4C has - can feel when compared to all modern power assisted steering wheels of the S2000's, Miatas and 458's of this world. It's a moot point to me as the double-clutch gearboxes are not only a question of 'feeling' but how much quicker and more fuel-efficient they can be.

Originally Posted by Soorena

Comparing a race engine that only lived for 1 race to a street engine is not valid at all.

In 2014 the F1 engines will have 1.6-liter of capacity, a rev limit of 15000 rpm, they will be turbocharged and have to last for around 5000 kilometres as opposed to the current 2000. That's how far we've come since 1981 as far as realibility is concerned in F1.

The comparison to the BMW M12/13 F1 turbo engines (originally these were only 1.5 liter, 4 cylinder road going BMW engines, mind you) was made just to underline the fact that despite the presence of HUGE turbo lag and VERY poor drivability that made of the pilots of that era true driving heros it gave BMW their only F1 championship title right on their second year attempt whereas the 'beautiful sounding' and throttle adjustable Ferrari V12 had to be abandoned by Ferrari because during 6 straight years since its introduction in F1, from 1989 to 1995, it never delivered.

Originally Posted by Soorena

And fuel efficiency? Really? I don't know when exactly things started going in wrong direction, but this demand for fuel efficient sports car is just hilarious. Want something fuel efficient? Buy something else. No one forced you to buy a sports car that doesn't go take you far on a tank.

Since you are Iranian and you own a Ferrari 458 the odds are that you or your father are related to the oil business so you should understand the pressure that is been put for world oil demand mainly by countries like China and that if this pressure isn't alleviated somehow by means of GREATER fuel-efficiency, and that also includes ALL fuel vehicles sports car or otherwise, then I'm affraid that following Iraq, Iran will be most likely the next victim. I'm VERY serious about this and if you don't have any relationship with the oil business whatsoever, other than filling your 458 fuel tank once in a while, I apologize to you in advance.

The environment, the so called 'green planet' is just an excuse, albeit a VERY valid one, to put us on the desirable GREATER fuel-efficiency and hence less oil dependency path.

So, this is why I think diesel is mandatory also in a sports car.

To me, right now it just represents a LOT of money that is not coming out of my pocket if I have a sports car as fuel-efficient as the Alfa Romeo 4C because I love driving!

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[GoingTooFast]

Ok, since I was banned from the 1M forum I think other 1M owners here will be interested to know how my 1M with ~50.000 km in the odometer is doing so far in terms of realibility. So, here's a little update on the issues I've came across with the 1M. I had only two issues, both already identified in the Log for acknowledged/known 1M issues and both solved under the warranty period:

1. I had to replace both front fender liners for the new version because the front tires started rubbing against the old ones
   
2. Electronic issues with the rear Park Distance Control (PDC) and both the tachometer and rev counter needels going nuts due to water accessing the boot (not just humidity- I could breed fishes in my trunk such was the quantity of water found inside of it ). After the trunk and the trunk seals were checked it was found that the water was coming from the Fuel Tank Filler Neck compartment due to bad sealing (most likely from slightly out of spec or bad mounted parts). It was then properly sealed. In the picture below you can see the right inner part of my 1M's trunk, next to where the Tank Filler Neck compartment is, without the carpets. This is only a little sample of the water that was there after it has been partially removed:

[Red Bread]

Just curious, as I've owned a parts bin BMW too, but do you expect the Alfa to be better, worse or similar to the 1M in terms of overall reliability and small, annoying issues?

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Just curious, as I've owned a parts bin BMW too, but do you expect the Alfa to be better, worse or similar to the 1M in terms of overall reliability and small, annoying issues?

Alfa Romeo can't afford the luxury of being unreliable if they want to make a come back with flying colors to the US market.

The Alfa Romeo 4C is their halo car thus I'm sure it will be more reliable than the well established BMW offerings in the US market .

It's as simple as this.

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[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

Alfa Romeo can't afford the luxury of being unreliable if they want to make a come back with flying colors to the US market.

The Alfa Romeo 4C is their halo car thus I'm sure it will be more reliable than the well established BMW offerings in the US market .

It's as simple as this.

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It is that simple, but I am not confident that they'll pull it off. I'm looking forward to the car, and for future Alfa products. I don't expect them to be all that reliable, but hopefully they're better than the old Spiders and Milanos we saw last.

The good news is that they created very low expectations.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

It is that simple, but I am not confident that they'll pull it off. I'm looking forward to the car, and for future Alfa products. I don't expect them to be all that reliable, but hopefully they're better than the old Spiders and Milanos we saw last.

The good news is that they created very low expectations.

You must be kidding me... I've just posted a picture of a 102,000 $US dollar 2011 car (that's the price here considering all the optional equipment of my 1M) that let enough water to breed frogs enter the trunk and you have the nerve to talk about 1985-1993 cars from Alfa?!

Man, you have to like BMW more than germans themselves...

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

You must be kidding me... I've just posted a picture of a 102,000 $US dollar 2011 car (that's the price here considering all the optional equipment of my 1M) that let enough water to breed frogs enter the trunk and you have the nerve to talk about 1985-1993 cars from Alfa?!

Man, you have to like BMW more the germans themselves...

I drive a Mazda dude. I'm currently looking at a Subaru, a Porsche and this Alfa. I honestly have no interest in any current BMW, aside from possibly the far off M2.

But yeah, my M Coupe let a lot of water in too and the rear subframe liked to do a little walk about. As for local math, sorry for your current situation, but 1M's were about half that in actual USD, not that $50k excuses actual water intrusion.

As for Alfa, those cars are the last reference point for most Americans. My old coworker in Frankfurt had a 147 diesel that aside from what appeared to be elephant hide for a dash, was a great little car. I used the company carpool to drive many Alfas while I was over there and have nothing but fond memories of those, better than most of the German cars I checked out.

[gonzo]

Fella, are you on or off some important medication?

Someone gives their opinion and you go into slight tirades and more or less try and insult them.

Those drops of water could take a tadpole through development with some determination I suppose.
Comparing a 1M or any BMW ever built as shabby compared to a POcowdung Milano ?

An absolute piece of poo that Alfa should be ashamed of releasing. My older brother bought one, like a big dumby, and it started falling apart as he left the dealership.

Chirp away about what you "think" but try and show a wee bit of class towards others while doing it.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Chirp away about what you "think" but try and show a wee bit of class towards others while doing it.

There are two things you can count on from GTF, a near complete lack of tact and unfailing love for a nobody F1 test driver. Once you know those two things, he's pretty amusing and does provide some good coverage of the 4C.

The important thing for us in the US is still the unknown price. If it's $55k or nearby, it will be a success (pending reliability and build quality), but if it's closer to the $80k that recent rumors have put it near, it will be a short lived revival of Alfa in the US.

[shah269]

car pppppoooorrrnnnn......
it just has to look good and sound sexy...
function is a non issue!

and who will buy it....oh those guys on wall street who made a killing tanking my 401k ;-)

[gonzo]

RB, you did it now.
Here it comes.

No response regarding lack of tact.

71 paragraphs to contradict your vile remark about him being a nobody driver.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I drive a Mazda dude. I'm currently looking at a Subaru, a Porsche and this Alfa. I honestly have no interest in any current BMW, aside from possibly the far off M2.

Yeah, yeah... and then there's your wife X1. I can tell a 'cheerleader' when I hear one.

Originally Posted by Red Bread

As for Alfa, those cars are the last reference point for most Americans.

Oh, don't you worry about that... I can't remember the last time I heard about Tesla being a reference point for most Americans and yet it was enough to rise the Google interest... go figure!

[GoingTooFast]

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

The important thing for us in the US is still the unknown price. If it's $55k or nearby, it will be a success (pending reliability and build quality), but if it's closer to the $80k that recent rumors have put it near, it will be a short lived revival of Alfa in the US.

Yeah most estimates have it at high optioned Cayman S or base 911 price. So over $80k.

[Z4inAZ]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I drive a Mazda dude. I'm currently looking at a Subaru, a Porsche and this Alfa. I honestly have no interest in any current BMW, aside from possibly the far off M2.

SERIOUSLY BMW YOU ARE $#()%*) MAKING A %*#)$#) #%$()*#)( DAMNED #$#%*()#*(( 2 SERIES IN ADDITION TO THE #)$*#)( DAMNED #($#*)(#$()* YOU ALREADY MAKE???

WHY NOT JUST A 1-10 SERIES?
A-Z SERIES? YOUVE GOT THE "I" AND "X" TAKEN CARE OF!!!

God damnit, BMW!!!!