[Elsabor67]

Breaking this morning on F1.com

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlin.../11/16648.html (Vettel)

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlin.../11/16647.html (Alonso)

[David70]

I think Alonso is a far better driver than Vettel (he is still world class) and based on Vettel's history the only thing I can tell for sure is he was better than Mark Webber. Eventually we will know for sure. If it is Kimi (pretty sure confirmed) and Vettel, and Vettel ends up 2nd too much of the time it won't look good for him. Not sure anyone will be under more pressure to perform well.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by David70

I think Alonso is a far better driver than Vettel (he is still world class) and based on Vettel's history the only thing I can tell for sure is he was better than Mark Webber. Eventually we will know for sure. If it is Kimi (pretty sure confirmed) and Vettel, and Vettel ends up 2nd too much of the time it won't look good for him. Not sure anyone will be under more pressure to perform well.

This is the same team that rode out Massa for five years so I really don't see how there will be any more pressure with the Scuderia than anywhere else. If anyone is under pressure, it's Ferrari themselves. They couldn't produce with two of the top drivers in the sport so I think Vettel will likely be under far less pressure than he is at Red Bull.

[six_timer]

Originally Posted by David70

I think Alonso is a far better driver than Vettel (he is still world class) and based on Vettel's history the only thing I can tell for sure is he was better than Mark Webber.

This whole "Vettel's a hack" line of thinking is silly. OK, let's play Devil's Advocate. Based on Alonso's history, the only thing I can tell for sure is he was better than Fisichella. When he drove the same car as Hamilton, he was slower. His 2 WC titles only prove that the Renault was the dominant car of it's time. And now he's faster than Kimi, who's a past-prime driver who retired once already. Alsonso's so good, he's being dumped by Ferarri.

[E90SLAM]

Now, where will Alonso go?

[David70]

Originally Posted by five_timer

This whole "Vettel's a hack" line of thinking is silly. OK, let's play Devil's Advocate. Based on Alonso's history, the only thing I can tell for sure is he was better than Fisichella. When he drove the same car as Hamilton, he was slower. His 2 WC titles only prove that the Renault was the dominant car of it's time. And now he's faster than Kimi, who's a past-prime driver who retired once already. Alsonso's so good, he's being dumped by Ferarri.

So when I said Vettel "still world class" you read this as "Vettel's a hack". I only said I think Alonso is better than Vettel and I don't know how good Vettel really is, just an opinion, relax a little, it will be ok.

I also think the pressure Vettel is under is from himself as I don't believe he is happy with the way this year went.

[KingOfJericho]

I don't think his comment was aimed at you....

[six_timer]

Originally Posted by David70

So when I said Vettel "still world class" you read this as "Vettel's a hack".

I actually misunderstood the intent of your sentence - I thought you were referencing back to Alonso as the subject; i.e. they're both getting pummled by Mercedes, but at least Alonso's still world class. So in that case, my reply was not directed at you, as I honestly think Alonso may very well be the best driver out there.

But there seems to be a conspiracy to discredit Vettel's abilities and 4 WCs. He'd be the first to admit that the season hasn't gone well, and that RIC is a fast and smart driver. But by my count, Vettel's also been the primary recipient of bad luck, with 3 race retirements to 2, and (more importantly) 3 mechanical failures during quali to 0. As it stands, the quali comparo is 7 (VET) to 11 (RIC). Remove the quali problems, and it could have been 10 to 8. Vettel's not ready for retirement yet.

[solstice]

First season in a Toro Rosso Ricciardo is thoroughly out scored by Jan-Eric Vergne. First season in a Red Bull and Ricciardo is thoroughly out scoring Vettel. Red Bull build fantastic cars.

Personally I think what's left of Vettel's reputation will be shattered by Kimi next year. With Kimi likely to retire after next season Vettel should be the golden boy given all Ferrari support so it will be interresting to see. Vettel has proven to be a better loser than winner and this humbling year seem to have done him good so I hope it works out for him. There's a lot of good will to be had if he becomes part of an unlikely Ferrari come back. Not looking forward to the shrilly YES!!!! to return though. Would suck for Alonso...

[954Stealth]

Originally Posted by E90SLAM

Now, where will Alonso go?

McLaren-Honda

[E90SLAM]

Originally Posted by 954Stealth

McLaren-Honda

I hate McLaren decided not to tell until December. I guess McLaren is the only place left.

[David70]

Originally Posted by five_timer

I actually misunderstood the intent of your sentence - I thought you were referencing back to Alonso as the subject; i.e. they're both getting pummled by Mercedes, but at least Alonso's still world class. So in that case, my reply was not directed at you, as I honestly think Alonso may very well be the best driver out there.

But there seems to be a conspiracy to discredit Vettel's abilities and 4 WCs. He'd be the first to admit that the season hasn't gone well, and that RIC is a fast and smart driver. But by my count, Vettel's also been the primary recipient of bad luck, with 3 race retirements to 2, and (more importantly) 3 mechanical failures during quali to 0. As it stands, the quali comparo is 7 (VET) to 11 (RIC). Remove the quali problems, and it could have been 10 to 8. Vettel's not ready for retirement yet.

I see what you are saying about my sentence, not what I was going for. I agree that Vettel is taking more blame than he deserves but also haven't been that impressed with him this year.

Comparing races they both finished Ricciardo finished ahead of Vettel 10 to 3. http://grandprixrankings.com/compare...sus-ricciardo/. Maybe all related to luck but doesn't seem that close.

One of the problems with motor racing and especially with F1 is it is difficult to tell who is the best. Most individual sports are really easy to judge. Run the 100 meters a few times against the same competition and there isn't much to dispute.

[six_timer]

Originally Posted by David70

Comparing races they both finished Ricciardo finished ahead of Vettel 10 to 3.

That's correct, but there are a myriad of factors that contribute to race position. That's why I compared qualifying results, which are more likely to reflect driver performance only. And by that measure, they are relatively even, which is as it should be, if Ricciardo's priming to be a top driver.

[six_timer]

Originally Posted by solstice

Personally I think what's left of Vettel's reputation will be shattered by Kimi next year..

That's so ridiculous on so many levels. So the 4 time WC with a new Ferrari deal has nearly no reputation left. Right. And seeing that Kimi has all but dropped off the map, you may be the only person who's even considering that Kimi will ever be faster than Vettel. I can't wait till next season.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by five_timer

That's so ridiculous on so many levels. So the 4 time WC with a new Ferrari deal has nearly no reputation left. Right. And seeing that Kimi has all but dropped off the map, you may be the only person who's even considering that Kimi will ever be faster than Vettel. I can't wait till next season.

Kimi has been struggling with the front end of his car this year. If next years Ferrari is more friendly the way he likes his car setup, he could maybe get back to normal.

[aloksatoor]

As for Alonso I hope he has to sit out this year. F1 would be better without his politics and mind games (#1 status demands, spygate, crashgate, badmouthing his team all the time). 1 Bernies enough for that .

Excited to see vettel in red, maybe he will do what schumi did a decade ago. His only problem is overtaking otherwise I don't see much difference in him and the best. I don't consider Alonso to be better than Hammy, plus Kimi was crazy good in the lotus, that guy can develop cars once the front end is tuned to his liking. Still some fire left in him.

[aloksatoor]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

Kimi has been struggling with the front end of his car this year. If next years Ferrari is more friendly the way he likes his car setup, he could maybe get back to normal.

He hates that pull rod front end that alonso likes so much I think in the past ferraris, the setup takes a long time to change when on track compared to the push rod, which is a lot easier for mechanics to work/tune in a time crunch over a race weekend. This was a good article

http://f1bias.com/2014/07/08/kimi-ra...i-explained-2/

[David70]

Originally Posted by five_timer

That's correct, but there are a myriad of factors that contribute to race position. That's why I compared qualifying results, which are more likely to reflect driver performance only. And by that measure, they are relatively even, which is as it should be, if Ricciardo's priming to be a top driver.

Ricciardo had an edge in qualifying but once it comes to the race he did vastly better, beating Vettel 10 to 3. If me and someone else raced 13 times and they beat me 10 times I would have a hard time pulling the "myriad of factors" card when we raced with the same team. With the qualifying close to equal you would expect the race results (what really matters) to be close to equal with similar drivers. Maybe getting beat 8 to 5 I would put it to luck.

Maybe he could never get the Red Bull car to perform and things will be different in the future.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

Kimi has been struggling with the front end of his car this year. If next years Ferrari is more friendly the way he likes his car setup, he could maybe get back to normal.

Shouldn't this same excuse be afforded to Vettel?

[six_timer]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

Shouldn't this same excuse be afforded to Vettel?

Exactly!

For some reason, NO ONE ever says about Kimi what's being said about Vettel. Yet RAI is doing much worse vs ALO than VET vs RIC. Please explain this to me.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

Shouldn't this same excuse be afforded to Vettel?

It wasn't meant to be an excuse for anyone. Simply stating Kimi could all of sudden show speed next season. But he may not. I wouldn't write him off as Vettel fan did above. It might not be as simple as showing up and expecting a slow teammate.

[six_timer]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

It might not be as simple as showing up and expecting a slow teammate.

When did anyone say that?

It's my opinion that Vettel is as fast as Alonso; he was fast at BMW Sauber, he was fast at Torro Rosso, and he's been fast at Red Bull. I expect him to be fast at Ferrari. And it's also my opinion that the difference between ALO and RAI this season is greater than just setup. So while anything is possible, I'd say it's likely that Vettel (still in his prime) will be the faster of the two. Again, we'll see.