[Mani59]

Just watched this brilliant interview with the great Gordon Murray by Chris Harris.

Really interesting to hear that after he did the awesome McLaren F1 road car, he pitched a new smaller super car for BMW which they approved.
But when the McLaren F1 team linked up with Mercedes-Benz for use on their Formula 1 engines, the deal was called off with BMW at the last minute

See 52:02 for the start of the BMW chat:

[Law]

BMW have some serious bad luck with timing when it comes to supercars.

The original M1 also never accomplished its original mission due to financial difficulties at Lamborghini, which was also sort of a last minute curveball for BMW.

It's a shame, really. I've always felt that out of the big three German automakers that BMW had the best potential to make the most capable supercar of the three had one ever come into fruition after the original M1.

Even after the failed deal described by Gordon Murray, there were still missed opportunities over the years from the 2000s with the S65/S85 engines to more recently with the i8 chassis/CFRP production.

In an alternate universe:

[yco]

Originally Posted by Law

It's a shame, really. I've always felt that out of the big three German automakers that BMW had the best potential to make the most capable supercar of the three had one ever come into fruition after the original M1.

i believe it used to be like that..
BMW had better chassis and engines before but recently in 4-5 years Mercedes closed the gap chassis wise and engines as well.. Merc' is going with steady right steps and now actually i believe BMW is falling behind these days unless BMW makes some right moves in chassis, engine and esthetics.. even if deliveries been delayed until 2021-2022 Mercedes' AMG Project ONE is a crazy car.. its a big big project in all terms for automotive industry and BMW doesnt even have an idea of making something like this.. it is a shame...

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Law

there were still missed opportunities over the years from the 2000s with the S65/S85 engines

Just the thought of a light weight 2-seater super/sports car using the S85 and a manual transmission would have literally been amazing.

[Law]

Originally Posted by yco

i believe it used to be like that..
BMW had better chassis and engines before but recently in 4-5 years Mercedes closed the gap chassis wise and engines as well.. Merc' is going with steady right steps and now actually i believe BMW is falling behind these days unless BMW makes some right moves in chassis, engine and esthetics.. even if deliveries been delayed until 2021-2022 Mercedes' AMG Project ONE is a crazy car.. its a big big project in all terms for automotive industry and BMW doesnt even have an idea of making something like this.. it is a shame...

BMW has certainly lost its confidence. It's stuck between two worlds and doesn't know how to make it work.
It knows the inevitable that it must embrace the future of tech, electrification, and regulations but is struggling to do that in a manner that is cost effective, competitive, and compatible with its ethos.

Other companies are able to champion such change and future-driven visions while also launching exciting new enthusiast projects and/or keeping its core enthusiast cars relatively pure.
The original idea of the BMW i brand from onset was to keep that differentiation and some had hoped (myself included) that it would mean M can then focus on being just M and BMW i can expand the electrification portfolio and somewhere along the line they can perhaps synergize and make a serious good hybrid + ICE sports car combination...but that didn't work out too well for BMW.

We look at cars like the AMG Project One, Aston Valkyrie, Porsche 918, etc. and see the possibilities of incorporating modern intelligent materials with 'old school' ICE engines coupled with electrification.
On the other side, we also see pure electric cars from Tesla et al that are very usable and capable as well.
In either case, BMW had flirted with both ideas (i.e., i3 and i8) but has not been able to commit to either.
What ends up happening is a lot of wasted effort for nothing. In the end, BMW gained neither the market share nor the clout it wanted with the experiments of the i3 and i8, all while the doomsday is rapidly approaching for 'traditional' BMW M drivetrains/engines/cars because BMW couldn't develop a real strategy.

I think being a standalone independent company in the face of huge conglomerates makes it that much more difficult.
But it's a true tragedy.

Originally Posted by jstein55

Just the thought of a light weight 2-seater super/sports car using the S85 and a manual transmission would have literally been amazing.

Hear, hear.

[David70]

I always thought the less than "super car" but still above the standard car makes more sense. Some companies create huge gaps and I am assuming to show what they can do but they end up building cars that are never seen or most even know about. Likely never happen but I would like to see BMW build a 2 door performance car in the $100k-$200k range far more than the $500k+. The i8 was a huge disappointment in my mind. Decent performance from a 3 cylinder hybrid but and interesting to look at but nothing I would ever like to own.

Ford created the GT, I have never seen one, zero chance I will ever own one, almost no one I know has any idea it exists, didn't increase Ford's image in my mind.

I feel the same about the Lexus LFA

Gap between Acura NSX (has it's own isues) and their next performance car? Not sure what the next car is.

[freakystyly]

I'll leave this here... I know it's a one off but still.

https://www.bmwblog.com/2020/04/14/v...anhart-bmw-z4/

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by David70

I always thought the less than "super car" but still above the standard car makes more sense. Some companies create huge gaps and I am assuming to show what they can do but they end up building cars that are never seen or most even know about. Likely never happen but I would like to see BMW build a 2 door performance car in the $100k-$200k range far more than the $500k+. The i8 was a huge disappointment in my mind. Decent performance from a 3 cylinder hybrid but and interesting to look at but nothing I would ever like to own.

Ford created the GT, I have never seen one, zero chance I will ever own one, almost no one I know has any idea it exists, didn't increase Ford's image in my mind.

I feel the same about the Lexus LFA

Gap between Acura NSX (has it's own isues) and their next performance car? Not sure what the next car is.

I agree. The halo supercars sell in such miniscule numbers that they account to little more than collector cars for the extremely wealthy and do little for average buyer brand recognition. The reality is that the G80 M3/M4 will offer performance that approaches super cars at a price point where they can actually sell in volume and if you want something even faster the M8 Comp will do 0-60 in 2.5 seconds and while it's not exotic neither is its price. There are plenty of cars today that approach supercar performance while retaining daily driveability and that's where the industry is moving to.

[David70]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

I agree. The halo supercars sell in such miniscule numbers that they account to little more than collector cars for the extremely wealthy and do little for average buyer brand recognition. The reality is that the G80 M3/M4 will offer performance that approaches super cars at a price point where they can actually sell in volume and if you want something even faster the M8 Comp will do 0-60 in 2.5 seconds and while it's not exotic neither is its price. There are plenty of cars today that approach supercar performance while retaining daily driveability and that's where the industry is moving to.

I would like them to do something above the M3/M4, less than supercar and not a fan of the M8, mostly because of more of a "GT" and less of a sports car.

[Law]

Originally Posted by David70

I always thought the less than "super car" but still above the standard car makes more sense. Some companies create huge gaps and I am assuming to show what they can do but they end up building cars that are never seen or most even know about. Likely never happen but I would like to see BMW build a 2 door performance car in the $100k-$200k range far more than the $500k+. The i8 was a huge disappointment in my mind. Decent performance from a 3 cylinder hybrid but and interesting to look at but nothing I would ever like to own.

Ford created the GT, I have never seen one, zero chance I will ever own one, almost no one I know has any idea it exists, didn't increase Ford's image in my mind.

I feel the same about the Lexus LFA

Gap between Acura NSX (has it's own isues) and their next performance car? Not sure what the next car is.

Good points. Cars like the LFA don't really increase the reputation of a brand.

The terms halo car, supercar, and hypercar are defined differently by each individual, group, company, or journalist, but I agree with your assessment that a true bespoke performance car within the $100-200K price range (with special derivatives possibly reaching a higher range) is kind of the sweet spot.

Ideally, it would sit just high enough to still tie it together with the rest of the BMW family but still have all the advantages of a bespoke chassis and drivetrain that can really showcase BMW engineering prowess.
That's the kind of halo car that works.

The R8 is a perfect example of that...and just like what jstein55 and I have discussed before, I can't help but to think "what if" every single time I see/hear one.
For all intents and purposes, the S65 and S85 were comparable with the 4.2 V8 and 5.2 V10 in the 1st gen Audi R8.
In many ways, the S65/S85 were actually superior to the Audi engines and the M DCT was worlds better than the R-Tronic; what was missing was a bespoke sports car chassis. And the current V10 in the R8 is a perfect example of what could've been if BMW actually allowed the S85 to enter into a second or third generation of engineering development.
That's the type of car that would be hypothetically beneficial to the BMW (and BMW M in particular) brand and would be a relatively accessible sports/halo car that still had a blood relation to its lesser models while being still being somewhat unique/bespoke.

But of course, that ship sailed long ago. BMW had another chance with the CFRP monocoques they were pumping out but chose to restrict & limit that development to only a lousy 1.5L 3-cyl in the i8.

Too bad.

[quick6]

The S85 V10 made one feel so special from the sound alone. I sold my 2010 M6 just because I was so afraid of extreme costs of repair, and still miss it to this day. Its a fantasy of mine they bring it back someday.

[MarkDemma]

Given that there is as close to zero chance I'd ever have enough money to buy a super car, I don't really care about this sort of thing.

[W12x]

Personally, I feel like a project like the LFA would never happen at Toyota without Akio pushing for it.

Just like how some of the VW group super cars wouldn't see the green light for approval without Piech's leadership in the late 90s/early 2000s.

The lack of visionary leadership likely contributed to the boring products at some companies.

Originally Posted by Law

Good points. Cars like the LFA don't really increase the reputation of a brand.

The terms halo car, supercar, and hypercar are defined differently by each individual, group, company, or journalist, but I agree with your assessment that a true bespoke performance car within the $100-200K price range (with special derivatives possibly reaching a higher range) is kind of the sweet spot.