[martin mustang]

Hi Levi, are you a BM owner from previous comments you look more like someone with a connection to Alfa group, a dealer maybe?
I Use to be a big fun and still are when down to designs and the way they look, but they quit the driver side for now some time, losing the rear wheel drive add the Fiat quality in place no wonder why the brand went down the drain for a while, I am certainly looking forward for Alfas come back, this way BMW can think twice before coming out with cars like the 2 series tourer and focus on what they known for focused on the driver 1st, and for us parting with our earned cash will end-up with more choices hence winners.

Originally Posted by Levi

LOL

And then the BMW guys trash Alfa Romeo for being unreliable, but I didn't have any problems with my two Alfas. Just got some rattles now at 30K km.

[David70]

Originally Posted by csu87

Boom! Above average.

I guess congratulations to them?

If someone announced that they had slightly above average intelligence I wouldn't really know what to say to them.

I also think "Problems" in this survey can include all kinds of things you don't like or don't understand which can be much different than reliability. Don't understand or don't like the operation of the Navigation system, report it as a problem.

[CHCCubs]

I'm on my second BMW and so far both have just as if not more reliable than the long line of Acuras and Hondas I had before them.

[Efthreeoh]

I'd like to throw in here since I've been a BMW owner going on 27 years now, currently own 3 BMWs out of a total of 4, taken two of them past 250,000 miles (approaching 300K on the E90) and do all my maintenance and most all repairs.

And back in the late '80s and through 1997 ran an E30 at the same time as owning a '89 Acura Integra. On that point my wife was driving the E30 while I was driving the Acura. For about 30,000 miles or so she lived in Manhattan and commuted to Yonkers. The E30 lived in a underground garage (I should say buried) and she tried to maintain it at some dork gas station in Yonkers (who f'd up the AC and a few other things). At the same time the Acrua ran an easy life of 90 highway miles. The Acura reached 230,000 miles by 1997 when my wife bought a Z3 and I took over the E30. The Acura has a few problems, it ate left-side halfshafts for some reason, and had an issue with the igniter (that Honda later recalled and replaced mine for free and refunded the earlier repair).

The E30 had a few more issues than the Acura, but when both cars were at 230,000 miles (not together) the BMW was in far better physical shape, where the Acura's interior was worn and faded and had rust holes in the left rear quarter panel (they all seem to rust there). The BMW was worth putting parts and DIY effort, where the Acura was ready for "replacement of the appliance".

Now the Z3, currently at 170K and sitting on my lift with the front of the motor off for replacement of timing case gaskets, is one of the poorest built cars I've ever owned (and that includes Pintos). I've done more work on the Z3 than any car I've owned not counting my '99 F-150 (not Ford's best build years...). The Z3 interior build quality is terrible. The seat bushing wear out, the window bushings seize up. The plastic cracks and breaks if you look at it wrong. And the M44 is just a sieve. And it loses the cam position sensor every 7 years or so. The E90?, more reliable than the E30 and less problematic. But electric water pumps shouldn't die and cost $400 just for the part...

The Z4 was my first used BMW and came with a rattling throwout bearing, but I've driven it 11,000 miles since December and it's been trouble free (fingers crossed) so far.

So I guess my point is most BMWs are worth keeping because long-term they hold up well and are worth repairing where most cars at half the mileage are ready for a trade in.

[Sterling Roadster]

Also keep in mind the posts you are going to see are, "my car is doing 'X', is it broken?" because people don't often use forums to rave about how amazing and reliable their car is. They're often to busy driving and enjoying their functioning car. Also people tend to get paranoid about a car when it's new, unfamiliar and expensive. They tend to pay attention to things like noise and vibration on a car they care about more than the old beater they sold just before it blew up from neglect.

As far as the waterpump issue, no doubt BMW did not do enough R&D on their cooling systems. However the average consumer will wait until something fails horribly before thinking about it. Commonly people don't realise they've put 80,000+ miles on their original waterpump and thermostat. They'll wait until it fails and theyre stranded, for them to say BMWs suck. sorry for the rant.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'd like to throw in here since I've been a BMW owner going on 27 years now, currently own 3 BMWs out of a total of 4, taken two of them past 250,000 miles (approaching 300K on the E90) and do all my maintenance and most all repairs.

And back in the late '80s and through 1997 ran an E30 at the same time as owning a '89 Acura Integra. On that point my wife was driving the E30 while I was driving the Acura. For about 30,000 miles or so she lived in Manhattan and commuted to Yonkers. The E30 lived in a underground garage (I should say buried) and she tried to maintain it at some dork gas station in Yonkers (who f'd up the AC and a few other things). At the same time the Acrua ran an easy life of 90 highway miles. The Acura reached 230,000 miles by 1997 when my wife bought a Z3 and I took over the E30. The Acura has a few problems, it ate left-side halfshafts for some reason, and had an issue with the igniter (that Honda later recalled and replaced mine for free and refunded the earlier repair).

The E30 had a few more issues than the Acura, but when both cars were at 230,000 miles (not together) the BMW was in far better physical shape, where the Acura's interior was worn and faded and had rust holes in the left rear quarter panel (they all seem to rust there). The BMW was worth putting parts and DIY effort, where the Acura was ready for "replacement of the appliance".

Now the Z3, currently at 170K and sitting on my lift with the front of the motor off for replacement of timing case gaskets, is one of the poorest built cars I've ever owned (and that includes Pintos). I've done more work on the Z3 than any car I've owned not counting my '99 F-150 (not Ford's best build years...). The Z3 interior build quality is terrible. The seat bushing wear out, the window bushings seize up. The plastic cracks and breaks if you look at it wrong. And the M44 is just a sieve. And it loses the cam position sensor every 7 years or so. The E90?, more reliable than the E30 and less problematic. But electric water pumps shouldn't die and cost $400 just for the part...

The Z4 was my first used BMW and came with a rattling throwout bearing, but I've driven it 11,000 miles since December and it's been trouble free (fingers crossed) so far.

So I guess my point is most BMWs are worth keeping because long-term they hold up well and are worth repairing where most cars at half the mileage are ready for a trade in.

I have owned 18 BMWs and totally agree with your last statement. However, I guess that I have been very fortunate, because I have NEVER had an unreliable BMW and I hope my M4 is that good.

I really have not had the same Z3 experience that you have. Had a 1997 2.8 Z3 and currently own a 2001 3.0 Z3 that I purchased new in December 2000. It has been a fantastic car and looks as good today as the day we drove it off the lot. It has been extremely reliable, is in the shop at the moment for an A/C issue. Other than replacing the top after 10 years, this is the only issue that I have had.

[newoldbeemer]

Wow, I must be in the minority here. I agree with those two ladies at the salon. I love my bimmers but they are definitely more unreliable than the Japanese brands I have owned before. I am just glad my car is CPO right now. I didn't even think about this with brands like Mazda and Nissan.

My first BMW - a 2008 335i I bought in 2012 - spent half its time in the shop, luckily I bought extended warranty when I got it. I said Ok I got a bad piece and traded it in for a new 328i. I had "drivetrain malfunction" in about 2k miles. On a brand new car. I still own a BMW because I love how it drives and I've learnt to live with the unreliability. But I do agree with those two ladies. Its not just my experience, almost every friend that owns a BMW has similar stories that I've personally witnessed.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Sterling Roadster

As far as the waterpump issue, no doubt BMW did not do enough R&D on their cooling systems. However the average consumer will wait until something fails horribly before thinking about it. Commonly people don't realise they've put 80,000+ miles on their original waterpump and thermostat. They'll wait until it fails and theyre stranded, for them to say BMWs suck. sorry for the rant.

Not sure how the average consumer would even know to worry about their water pump and how many miles are on it. Then, when their water pump fails at 80k miles and they never had it fail this soon on any other car they have owned it makes sense to be upset with BMW.

[EL Jeffe 5]

+1

[Z K]

BMW can't be compared to the Japanese brands - the Japanese are extremely reliable. It is not a problem of maintenance most of the time. The complexity in the systems in the German car make it unreliable. I don't own my M3 because it's reliable. I own it because it's fun to drive. You kinda learn to live with the faults and quirks.

If I were just looking for reliable and affordable transportation, I would stick with the Japanese cars.

When people ask me "what car should I buy?" I always ask what you're looking to get out of it. There is no "perfect" car that offers the best of everything.

[lowbudgethero]

the one thing that bothers me about japanese cars is that their rust proofing is awful, my 94 audi 90's exhaust and body panels were in better shape when i sold it than my parent's 09 nissan versa and 06 subaru outback

[derryck]

BMW certainly does not have the reliability of a Honda or a Toyota and they require a bit more care and maintenance. If you take care of them and stay on top of the maintenance then they're well built cars that will last a long time. My BMWs require more maintenance and up keep but I don't generally find them any less reliable than my Japanese cars that are touted for their reliability. I will say that the couple of times I have attempted to have warranty work done on my E92, it has been an unacceptable wait time to get the car in for service which speaks to the volume of cars in the dealership for repair/service and I have never experienced this with any of my Japanese cars (Lexus and Acura).

[Sky_Blue]

Originally Posted by derryck

I will say that the couple of times I have attempted to have warranty work done on my E92, it has been an unacceptable wait time to get the car in for service which speaks to the volume of cars in the dealership for repair/service and I have never experienced this with any of my Japanese cars (Lexus and Acura).

There is another view on this! Perhaps it speaks volumes for the high vehicle count (popularity) of BMWs in your area that one garage has to service.

[Fast4d]

bmw V8 are horrible. had 4.4 and now 4.8

WP and other plastic cooling system parts are done well before 80k

and the damn water pipe orings and valley pan.

inline 6 on the other hand has been excellent. hopefully the f80 will following that trend.

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

There's a reason about 60% of BMW's are leased. BMW knows that more than half their clients dump the cars after three years anyway. Why build a product that will last 20 years when their clientele base don't hold onto them for more than three years? For the used car market where they won't make any money?

[wdb]

Originally Posted by elerner61

Beyond 150,000 miles Japanese cars tend to just be destined for the scrapyard.

To this last point I just did a Cargurus.com search to compare Honda Accords with over 150.000 miles for sale against BMW 3 Series. 118 vs. 739. And based upon how many more Accords are sold that's pretty impressive.

Not quite apples/apples. The 3 series costs more than an Accord with that many miles. That alone could account for the difference in numbers on a site like that. I have a friend who made fun of my STi only being worth $20K after 5 years while his A4 was worth $25K. His A4 cost $45K new, my STi cost $35K. Percentage wise the STi was by far the winner. (The STi is still worth ~$18K today, 10 years old and >100K miles.)

Originally Posted by Killramos

I think its funny how people say Japanese cars last so long. I don't think that's even marginally true these days. Maybe the things will start, and move. But they sure as hell don't do it very well past 100k.

At 100K miles my Honda Fit looked and drove pretty much just like it did when it was new and all I ever did was change the oil. That car was cheap to buy, cheap to run, and at 100K miles was easily good for another 100K. (Then it got hailed to death.) My wife's CRV is working its way towards the same status; not quite as cheap to buy but dead reliable and inexpensive to own.

All of that having been said, driving a BMW is not the same as driving an Accord, or even an Acura. I'm willing to pay for the experience. I buy my appliances from Japanese and my pleasure vehicles from Germans.

Originally Posted by Mo@BMW

There's a reason about 60% of BMW's are leased. BMW knows that more than half their clients dump the cars after three years anyway. Why build a product that will last 20 years when their clientele base don't hold onto them for more than three years? For the used car market where they won't make any money?

Straw man. There are entire model ranges of American cars that pretty much never see an actual purchase, only leases. Same for Japanese lines.

[derryck]

Originally Posted by Sky_Blue

There is another view on this! Perhaps it speaks volumes for the high vehicle count (popularity) of BMWs in your area that one garage has to service.

I assume you're joking, Honda and Toyota sell significantly more cars than BMW pretty much anywhere in the US. An almost month wait to get a car in for warranty work speaks poorly no matter what light you try to cast on it.

[Polo08816]

The way I see it, BMW "may" not be any more reliable than other brands such as Audi or MB. But the much larger enthusiast base means that there's going to be a far greater knowledge base for DIYs than the other brands. Ultimately, I'm willing to deal with the higher costs as long as I know what I can expect (to break down).

Also, the 3rd and 4th model years of any generation are generally more reliable than the 1st or 2nd year model years. This generally holds true for all cars and all manufacturers.

[Sterling Roadster]

Originally Posted by David70

Not sure how the average consumer would even know to worry about their water pump and how many miles are on it. Then, when their water pump fails at 80k miles and they never had it fail this soon on any other car they have owned it makes sense to be upset with BMW.

Cars are built for different purposes. And you have to know what you're buying. Of course a car with a 115 horsepower 4-cylinder that has been in production for decades will be reliable. It has no other duty than point a to b. So all the components are going to be built for longevity not performance. And the the vast majority of appliance cars never get pushed. All luxury comes at a price, but that price can be offset by knowledge is what i'm saying.

[Sterling Roadster]

Also comparing Hondas and Toyotas to BMWs makes no sense. You have to compare cars with similar numbers of performance as well as fit and finish. That's what it comes down to. If build quality and performance were not a concern, German manufacturers would not be as successful as they are. Now start think of the electrical, head gasket, turbo and transmission issues of high performance Japanese cars. I love Japanese cars also but when you give all manufacturers within a country the same reputation, you build false information. Such as BMWs are unreliable and Japanese cars are reliable, wayyy too general.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Mo@BMW

There's a reason about 60% of BMW's are leased. BMW knows that more than half their clients dump the cars after three years anyway. Why build a product that will last 20 years when their clientele base don't hold onto them for more than three years? For the used car market where they won't make any money?

Because when these leased cars are "dumped" they end up back at the BMW dealership and they are looking for a new owner? Get the reliability up, resale up and the lease cost to the consumer goes down.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by Sterling Roadster

Also comparing Hondas and Toyotas to BMWs makes no sense. You have to compare cars with similar numbers of performance as well as fit and finish. That's what it comes down to. If build quality and performance were not a concern, German manufacturers would not be as successful as they are. Now start think of the electrical, head gasket, turbo and transmission issues of high performance Japanese cars. I love Japanese cars also but when you give all manufacturers within a country the same reputation, you build false information. Such as BMWs are unreliable and Japanese cars are reliable, wayyy too general.

High performance Japanese cars have similar reliability as their more economical cars. The S2000 is a great car and super reliable. People beat on them on the track and drive them over 200k miles without needing much more than an oil change now and then. The NSX is another great example. Those cars are indestructable super cars. People daily drive them, race them and they just keep running.

Even turbocharged sports cars have great reliability. I had two Evos, drove both over 60k miles. Never had a single issue and I ran over 30 track days between the two cars. Bulletproof iron block engine and big power with a few bolt-ons. Just change oil, brake pads and tires - normal wear items for a track driven car. I have friends with track driven Evos at 200k miles that run just like new. Old Supra turbos are going strong despite being 20 years old - not to mention selling for $30k+ for a good condition mid-90s car.

Really there is no comparison, the Japanese are just better at building a reliable car no matter what kind of car it is. Germans may build more desirable cars most of the time but they need to learn how to build a more reliable car from the Japanese.