[catchm3ifyoucann]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Why build a car with an "insane" mode and a stated (but erroneous) 691 HP?

Please don't get the idea that "insane" mode is available on every car because it is a rather expensive option...

[RickFLM4]

^ Each of those car companies took reputational and valuation hits in connection with those disasters and VW is only just beginning.

Tesla is selling cars for $100K+, but can't fix a door handle design in 3+ years. Plenty of reports of electric motors needing to be swapped out. Leaking windows. Blank screens. Yeah they are responding to them because if they didn't they would be extinct. Yeah they are stepping up response now that Consumer Reports removed their recommendation but there are articles from a year ago by CR, Edmunds and others bringing up quality concerns. If you are going to sell a car based on technology it sure as shit better work, particularly when you have such low volume. If you can't get the software to consistently operate basic functions maybe you shouldn't release beta software that controls driving.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree. Obviously our opinions will not converge.

[zer0cool]

Given the newness of Tesla as a company, and Model S as a car, there just isn't enough publicly available data for me to draw any clear reliability conclusions right now, unless either Tesla or Consumer Report release some data.

Basically for various well known or somewhat well known issue, I want to be able to plot by model year and miles.

Basically if say door handle problem is common, how common, how many percent of 2012 cars had it by how many miles, did it happen again after fixing, if so at what miles? Same goes for every model year. Same with every other issues, say drive unit replacement.

The problem is people frequently talk about first model-year issues. As we see a lot of it on this M3/4 forum, or say on the Porsche Macan forum. The Model S is a brand new type of automobile from a new company. It's highly expected that the first few years probably would have reliability issues, that continually should be addressed.

However there just isn't enough data to draw any conclusions at this point.

E.g. if there was data, and say for 2012 cars, 20% had door problems by 10k miles, while for 2015 models, only 2% had problems by 10k, then I would say reliability has significantly improved on that issue. However, no data, so no analysis.

[RickFLM4]

Tesla claims a 20% improvement in quality from early models. But they haven't released any data, which to me is an indication that even after any improvements they still lag and continue to have problems. They haven't sold many cars compared to other automakers so they will never have the same volume of data as others. That does not mean they are not having quality issues.

http://www.latimes.com/business/auto...021-story.html

I did go to the website of the guy mentioned in the article, which shows the following based on limited data:

[John Tanglewood]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

The mindless are who these autopilot systems end up accommodating and empowering. They don't pay enough attention NOW -- how much more are they going to pay attention when they don't absolutely have to? How does such a system detect (and recognize) motorcycles? Pedestrians? Birds? Plastic grocery bags? How does it define appropriate speed? I could go on ... software is not a replacement for human decision making. Period. Even in warfare this has proven true.

While I can see Tesla's system making the mindless less dangerous in the short term, I think that would backfire HARD in the longer term as people - for no other reason than human nature - begin to trust a system they have no business trusting before the system breaks down.

IF the system breaks down.

And IF the system breaks down, you can be sure that will spell almost the end for the company. So surely you can expect they are doing everything possible to ensure that doesn't happen.

Your comment vaguely reminds me of the reactions to the first iPod that was posted on Reddit yesterday. Not very forward thinking, very pessimistic.

You can have your opinion, but it doesn't mean that others (like me) share it. Honestly if they make something that will keep the idiots in the right lane so they can play with their iphones while driving, THANK THE LORD. Because right now they do the same thing, only they are in the left lane AND ALSO CONTROLLING EVERY ASPECT OF THEIR VEHICLE.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by John Tanglewood

IF the system breaks down.

Your comment vaguely reminds me of the reactions to the first iPod that was posted on Reddit yesterday. Not very forward thinking, very pessimistic.

You can have your opinion, but it doesn't mean that others (like me) share it. Honestly if they make something that will keep the idiots in the right lane so they can play with their iphones while driving, THANK THE LORD. Because right now they do the same thing, only they are in the left lane AND ALSO CONTROLLING EVERY ASPECT OF THEIR VEHICLE.

Just for the record ...

... OK, yeah, ummm, never mind. I'm not going to sully this thread with what your comments remind me of, sir. I'll just leave it at that except to say that yelling isn't accepted decorum on a discussion forum -- and bold yelling? Man ...

[John Tanglewood]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Just for the record ...

... OK, yeah, ummm, never mind. I'm not going to sully this thread with what your comments remind me of, sir. I'll just leave it at that except to say that yelling isn't accepted decorum on a discussion forum -- and bold yelling? Man ...

Yelling? Because I am typing in caps? ...and bold? Who cares about the size of the letters, look at what they are saying.

Come to think of it yes - I am shouting (exclaiming) to the sky about clueless texting drivers and distracted left-lane soccer moms. Not shouting at you. I figured that much was obvious... Pretty sure I'm not the only one who feels that way. If a system can be developed to curb these morons, I am behind it 100%.

[Fundguy1]

I'm it's about their car. I've hated them since day one. I'm glad they got spanked. I hope it becomes a modern tucker company.

[hellrotm]

I have a couple neighbors with Telsa's. Never heard any complaints from them.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by catchm3ifyoucann

Ok so you do understand start ups typically take a while to generate profit? Tesla has been in the game for about 12-15 years now. With a market cap close to half of GM's.

Yeah, while selling around 50k cars per year to GM's 10 MILLION. Nothing sounds off or wrong about that (lol), but then again this is the world we live in right now with phony, manipulated, and rigged markets due to QE the world over from our Central Bank overlords.

Tic Tock *POP*

[RM7]

Originally Posted by John Tanglewood

Yelling? Because I am typing in caps? ...and bold? Who cares about the size of the letters, look at what they are saying.

Come to think of it yes - I am shouting (exclaiming) to the sky about clueless texting drivers and distracted left-lane soccer moms. Not shouting at you. I figured that much was obvious... Pretty sure I'm not the only one who feels that way. If a system can be developed to curb these morons, I am behind it 100%.

Just got back from a bike ride, noticed on both of my trips (to and from the trailhead) people sitting at the #1 spot at the left turn light on opposite sides of the intersection getting honked at because they were distracted by their phone when the light changed and weren't moving. One of them burned through the entire cycle before realizing people were honking at THEM.

People want self driving cars. They may not say they do, but their actions scream it.

[David70]

As long as there is an option to let the car drive or I can drive then I look forward to it (I don't see us getting close to the point where only the car can drive). I cover a large territory for work and sometimes drive most of the day on the highway just to spend hours later that night getting caught up on work. I would be more than happy to let the car drive, I get work done, and be done with everything when I get there. Part of the reason I fly when the distance gets to a certain point, because I can get more work done.

A lot of the same reasons I drive an automatic trans. sedan during the week but a manual coupe on my free time.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Just got back from a bike ride, noticed on both of my trips (to and from the trailhead) people sitting at the #1 spot at the left turn light on opposite sides of the intersection getting honked at because they were distracted by their phone when the light changed and weren't moving. One of them burned through the entire cycle before realizing people were honking at THEM.

People want self driving cars. They may not say they do, but their actions scream it.

And it's these 'distracted' people in left-hand turn lanes who tend to kill people on two wheels.

At least with a human mind and body behind the wheel there's some semblance of predictability. I'm highly, highly skeptical of any sort of consumer-level computer control of privately owned objects that can kill simply because a sensor goes bad, or the software can't assess a situation because it hasn't been accounted for by programmers. To me, this scenario shifts accident culpability squarely from the operator to the manufacturer -- and that one reason is why we will never see this kind of control in our lifetimes.

Remember my point earlier in this thread: total autopilot control of anything that risks human life has never worked -- even in warfare, during which it was first attempted. If a government worries about collateral damage when it is actually trying to kill, then a car manufacturer isn't even going to consider it until it is absolutely foolproof, and it will take near-AI levels of computer processing to achieve that.