[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Agreed, but at the risk of starting up the M2 blood wars again, the OG M2 is really more like an M235is than a true M2. It's a tuned up version of the N55, with base car seats and all that kind of stuff. It kind of makes my point again, the M Lite cars are better for the tinkerer than the full M.

Man, you really are Elitist.

M-Lite, is that what you're calling the non-S-Code cars?

If so, I think this will be my last response to you.

The M2 is an M2, BMW says so.
The seats in the M3/M4 are really no better for the task at hand, and not even on the Ring (ask Misha).

Full M, that's so funny.

What is Full M? A race car? You did know that less than 6% of M-cars are fully raced, right? I would put the M2C as only marginally better for HPDE's than the OG, and to that end, the OG costs less to maintain.

I think you're rose-colored glasses (or are those S-Code glasses?) are coloring your judgement.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

Man, you really are Elitist.

M-Lite, is that what you're calling the non-S-Code cars?

If so, I think this will be my last response to you.

The M2 is an M2, BMW says so.
The seats in the M3/M4 are really no better for the task at hand, and not even on the Ring (ask Misha).

Full M, that's so funny.

What is Full M? A race car? You did know that less than 6% of M-cars are fully raced, right? I would put the M2C as only marginally better for HPDE's than the OG, and to that end, the OG costs less to maintain.

I think you're rose-colored glasses (or are those S-Code glasses?) are coloring your judgement.

M Lite, M Perf, as the owner of an X5 M50i, I don't really care what it's called.

Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely buy an OG M2 over an M2C for myself. The sound alone would do it for me. I'm more saying that the OG M2 is more like an M Performance car than a S code M car. That's a GOOD THING..

Frankly, when you look at them, the S code engines are almost always less reliable than the regular ones. Plus side the non-S engines are more common, there's often times more parts available and at lower prices for modding. There's more people working on them to post helpful DIYs or "hey I did this job and learned this". Again, all good things. All of this plays into why I think the M Lite/Perf/whatever you want to call them cars are better for tinkerers.

As an aside, if I bought an OG M2 I would probably want to swap out the seats. Unless the other seats restricted rear seat room. I'm sure the regular seats are fine, but that's the one thing I wish my M50i had is sportier seats. I say that, but also would want them to be heated, cooled, and massaging like my current ones lol.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

M Lite, M Perf, as the owner of an X5 M50i, I don't really care what it's called.

Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely buy an OG M2 over an M2C for myself. The sound alone would do it for me. I'm more saying that the OG M2 is more like an M Performance car than a S code M car. That's a GOOD THING..

Frankly, when you look at them, the S code engines are almost always less reliable than the regular ones. Plus side the non-S engines are more common, there's often times more parts available and at lower prices for modding. There's more people working on them to post helpful DIYs or "hey I did this job and learned this". Again, all good things. All of this plays into why I think the M Lite/Perf/whatever you want to call them cars are better for tinkerers.

As an aside, if I bought an OG M2 I would probably want to swap out the seats. Unless the other seats restricted rear seat room. I'm sure the regular seats are fine, but that's the one thing I wish my M50i had is sportier seats. I say that, but also would want them to be heated, cooled, and massaging like my current ones lol.

OK, redemption is yours, thanks for the clarification.

With regards to the seats, the 2-series seat degrades the OG IMO, but in all honesty most find it more comfortable, and the F80/F82 seat is just as ugly, if in a different way.

I want a G-Series carbon bucket made with FRP, so the same shape but only $5K. That continues to be my wish.

[pbonsalb]

I have modded most of my cars. Whether it says M on the back does not matter much to me — I always debadge the M cars. I buy what I can reasonably afford. Sometimes that has not been an M, but I can do some mods to make it more entertaining and it does not necessarily have to exceed M performance to be entertaining to me.

I usually buy used because the lower price leaves more in the budget for mods. I DIY everything and that helps the mod budget. I also enjoy DIYing. It is a shame that the forums are dying off — they used to be a great source of knowledge and DIY. Facebook groups are not very searchable and offer little detail and utube videos are full of ads and sometimes idiots rambling for a long time before getting to the important details.

The older cars, whether M or not, are easier to DIY. My 1999 M3 is simple, even though it now has a built motor and is turbocharged, compared to the 2008 E90 M3 that I had for 10 years. I DIYed rod bearings on the E90 M3 as preventative maintenance and did just about all the mods short of a supercharger plus tons more work (alternator, starter, big brakes, sway bars, all fluids, water/meth injection, tune, springs and shocks, etc). I DIYed rod bearings on the 2008 E61 535xi that I had for 10 years and also replaced the turbos and that was a bigger job than the E90 M3 even though it was not an M car (also much more like all fluids, coolant pump and thermostat, valve cover, coils and plugs, JB4 piggyback, brakes, rear wheel bearing, etc). My current daily driver is an F90 M5 and that is the most challenging to DIY but I have done quite a bit (Supersprint turbo manifold, downpipes, mid/rear exhaust, water/meth injection, turbo inlets, springs, intake, engine and trans tunes, spark plugs and coils, coolant tank, front and rear diff fluids, transfer case fluid, transmission fluid, colder thermostat, engine mounts, etc).

I have much more respect for the guy who DIYs a non M (or “M lite”) car than the guy with a bunch of money who just buys the M car and pays a shop to do everything.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I have much more respect for the guy who DIYs a non M (or “M lite”) car than the guy with a bunch of money who just buys the M car and pays a shop to do everything.

You and I are cut from the same cloth. Totally agree. I can understand some jobs being beyond your skill level and space, but I think most of the fun in modded cars is the building them.

[nick380]

Oh there's definitely always tinkering. The finances these car demands brings in flocks of aftermarkets wanting to take advantage of owners. Especially when a generation first is produced. The excuses I get for "M Tax" is honestly a sad excuse to overcharge. A lot of folks who do "First" products always overcharge as they hold the monopoly of that market. Seen this here, and in Audi's. Yes, it takes more money, but that's also due to technology. Think about the unlocking of the modules, figuring out what makes them tick. It's not something anyone who doesn't work at Continental or has a Computer Science background would know how to even start. I'm a big DIY'er and do all the work myself that's not covered under warranty. It's not hard, as cars haven't really changed in the last few decades. Maybe some slight design adjustments, but a control arm is a still a control arm, a MAP sensor is a still MAP sensor, and Turbos will still spool like Turbos. Take into account sensors and the 37 modules within the F90, and honestly it's just like my 2007 335i I had back in 2013. Few more different protocols added for speed, some new sensors, etc. Nothing that can't be figured out by a BMW DIY person. Now the hybrid system....

With the G90 being hybrid this just exacerbates the issue 10-fold. Modding that car will take a safety course in high voltage, engineering knowledge of hybrid systems, and lots and lots of money. We know BMW will have all the hybrid communications encrypted, it will be more locked down than ever. You can't do anything to the new cars with ID8.5, I think the only thing possible still as far as I know is transmission tuning without much hasstle. This I see changing with the new hybrid transmission.

[pbonsalb]

[QUOTE=nick380;31266446] I'm a big DIY'er and do all the work myself that's not covered under warranty. It's not hard, as cars haven't really changed in the last few decades. Maybe some slight design adjustments, but a control arm is a still a control arm, a MAP sensor is a still MAP sensor, and Turbos will still spool like Turbos. Take into account sensors and the 37 modules within the F90, and honestly it's just like my 2007 335i I had back in 2013. Few more different protocols added for speed, some new sensors, etc. Nothing that can't be figured out by a BMW DIY person. [\QUOTE]

I disagree. The F90 M5 is way more complex than a 2007 335i. I have been pretty deep into my F90 M5 and deeper into my mid E61 535xi with N54 that is more complex than a 2007 335i. The F90 M5 is far more challenging to work on. Different suspension design, two engine ECUs, AWD, hot vee turbos, two water to air intercoolers, multiple heat exchangers, tight engine bay.

[nick380]

[QUOTE=pbonsalb;31266533]

Originally Posted by nick380

I'm a big DIY'er and do all the work myself that's not covered under warranty. It's not hard, as cars haven't really changed in the last few decades. Maybe some slight design adjustments, but a control arm is a still a control arm, a MAP sensor is a still MAP sensor, and Turbos will still spool like Turbos. Take into account sensors and the 37 modules within the F90, and honestly it's just like my 2007 335i I had back in 2013. Few more different protocols added for speed, some new sensors, etc. Nothing that can't be figured out by a BMW DIY person. [\QUOTE]

I disagree. The F90 M5 is way more complex than a 2007 335i. I have been pretty deep into my F90 M5 and deeper into my mid E61 535xi with N54 that is more complex than a 2007 335i. The F90 M5 is far more challenging to work on. Different suspension design, two engine ECUs, AWD, hot vee turbos, two water to air intercoolers, multiple heat exchangers, tight engine bay.

Challenging sure, different, but the same. It's not like if you get a line failure for one of the modules, that you wouldn't diagnose that line failure the same way you would in the 335i. If you have a sensor fail, you would diagnose it the same way, check for resistance, watch for proper values, etc. If a suspension component fails, you'd diagnose it the same on either car. Check for play, knock, etc. Suspension is suspension. Same with the air to water intercoolers, it's not like this is BMW's first jab at it. There is documentation on how to work on this. Yes it's designed differently, but with some documentation and good thinking it can be done, harder yes. I'd run into a few little issues on my F90 with the suspension and other things. Took at look at some diagrams, followed some circuits, and low and below. Found the issue.

The point is, once it does go hybrid that's a whole different batch. Not something the average BMW DIY'er is going to even have touched in his life. It's high voltage, requires a whole different set of skills to work on. At least with the F90, the skills are the same, just the difficulty has risen. You still use all the same fundamental concepts. Those concepts are going to take on a whole new life with the hybrid system. If you wanted to tinker and engineer new things you'd take the steps most do. Take a LiDar scan of the parts you want to modify, do some CAD, get it printed, tested, etc. Then of course figuring out the wiring if it's a sensor, how does it talk to DME, which would be the most challenging part imo. Point being, yes there are more modules, more circuits, more things happening. It's not different enough to where you look at diagrams and all the sudden this thing is a complete mystery. The suspension is different, but it's just their double wish bone design in the front which has already been used in prior models. It's not some profound new thing you know? Which is why these cars are still DIY'able without too many special tools.