05-12-2010, 02:40 AM | #111 | |
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I said it's not a halo car like the Veyron. It is Toyotas halo project (which I think are silly because they make no sense) but doesn't seperate from the pack like the Bugatti. And let me offer a little olive branch here. I appreciate your point of view. It is a great car. If it were a $200K car that would have been available to the unwashed masses I would be singing its praises (maybe even ordering one-that would be pretty close to my financial edge though). I have been following this project for years because I was interested in buying one. After I bought my Nissan I thought that it would be great to get the performance of the GTR with fit and finish of a Lexus. But it was not to be.
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05-12-2010, 02:50 AM | #113 | |
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I do find it amusing that everyone is singing the praises of the Italia or McLaren and yet there has been nothing definitive to suggest they are any worse or better than the LF A. The only thing negative about the LF A to most is the price tag. You could argue all day about whether the price and production numbers are the right decision. The bottom line is Lexus had/has no issue with moving them at this price and it will change Toyota/Lexus forever. Did you know that you can actually buy them everywhere else in the world but in NA where you can only lease? The 2 alocated to Singapore were sold for $800K. |
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05-12-2010, 02:52 AM | #114 | |
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Well, why should it be remotely close in price? By the time GT-R production is over, they'll probably sell over 8 times as many cars. Carbon ceramic brakes vs steel. Naturally aspirated engine running to 9k rpm and making 550 hp vs a 485 hp engine relying on turbos. Impeccable build quality and insanely anal attention to detail vs Boxster (maybe?) build quality. When Nissan were developing the GT-R on the 'Ring, they ran 4 laps per stint before the brakes and tires were overwhelmed; the LFA, in its very basic form but with steel brakes, raced in two 24-hour enduros on the most punishing circuit in the world as well as a few other 4-hour races there, in which it recently won its class. CF monocoque built in-house on their own looms vs steel unibody. C'mon, to expect the LFA to cost as little as the GT-R is pretty damn unrealistic. An F430 looks like a damn rip-off in comparison to the GT-R; yet Ferrari moved probably 2500 of them last year, even with a crap economy and the 458 in the wings. |
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05-12-2010, 03:02 AM | #116 |
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Let me clarify. I meant $200Kish. Which I would think would be attainable if the production numbers were high enough. The LFA should be a slight step up from a GT2.
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05-12-2010, 03:08 AM | #117 |
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That's a lot of cake.
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05-12-2010, 03:12 AM | #119 | |
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Do you honestly think it is beyond the expertise of Toyota to produce a powerful 6-cylinder turbocharged car, beyond their ability work with any of their transmission partners on a DCT? Just to give you some more insight about what an industry veteran would consider the LFA to not be a competitor to (and why) consider this from Motor Trend who interviewed Tobias Moers, Director of Vehicle Development for Mercedes-AMG: "MT: Who do you consider the competition for your SLS AMG? TM: Our main competitors are the Porsche [911] Turbo, Audi R8 V10...We talk about Ferrari, but the California is more in terms of the SL and the F430 is too aggressive compared to our car. And we don't know anything about the new one, the 458 Italia. MT: So how about the Lexus LFA? Do you think it is an SLS competitor? TM: Actually I don't know. It is quite hard to calculate how good that car is... I saw it on the Nordschleife for the 24 hours race. Ahh. I don't know. It's not a competitor, because they are talking about what, 500 cars? That's what I read in the press kit. I don't think so. It is too expensive. It's not a competitor. No. ...maybe it's fast. It could be, but it is such a small market." |
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05-12-2010, 03:17 AM | #121 | |
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And I don't quite get what that quote is suppose to prove? It's just stating the obvious. BTW, I think the SLS is overpriced too.
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05-12-2010, 03:22 AM | #122 | |
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And you also have to consider the halo effect on what should be Lexus's most important market, Japan. There, Lexus have only recently gained traction against German competitors; in their introductory year a short while ago, the Germans absolutely clobbered them. Attainable is relative. You look at the LFA's $400k price and laugh at how miserably high the price is. A Corvette guy looks at your $200k "attainable" proposal and might think you need a lobotomy. |
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05-12-2010, 03:30 AM | #123 | |
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It's stating the obvious, yet you consider the 458/Gallardo to be legit competitors to the LFA despite their prices AND production volumes suggesting otherwise. Looks like your grasp of the obvious could be improved. SLS is overpriced only if nobody buys it. For a 570-hp naturally aspirated car without AWD and only sub-300mm rear tires to lap the 'Ring in 7:40 by a non-factory development driver is damn impressive IMO. Add to that the gullwing party trick, alloy spaceframe, and great-sounding engine...well I can certainly see the appeal. |
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05-12-2010, 03:36 AM | #124 | |
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If that's what the 10 years of effort has really been about, more power to them. Up until last year the speculation was that the LFA was going to be priced south of $200k. So it was shocking when the price and availabilty were announced. You're right that its all relative but part of my definition of obtainable would be that if I had the cash I could really get one.
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05-12-2010, 03:42 AM | #125 | |
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My logic? I have stated repeatedly that a price around $200k would make the LFA alluring. And I have stated that to get to that price they'd need to step up production. Frankly you need to take off those rose colored glasses when looking at this vehicle. The SLS is Mercedes doing what American cars companies are doing too much of: looking at the past.
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05-12-2010, 04:11 AM | #126 | |
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You mean step up production like Porsche did with the CGT, the values of which are tanking left and right? How's that for a halo effect? And what makes you think Toyota even have the production line capacity to step up production? Making this level of supercar is pretty much new to them. Hell, even Porsche did not have the production capacity to form their own CF monocoques for the CGT. Nor did Ferrari which has had decades of building Formula One cars. Both companies farmed out the monocoque construction to the same firm. With a username like 997GT3, you shouldn't look down at any company for looking at the past. The SLS is using modern technology (alloy spaceframe, DCT) with an eye toward the future (hybrid/electric drive). |
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05-12-2010, 04:28 AM | #127 | |
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BTW, it was known as far back as 2 years ago on Lexus forums that the price would be 375-400k USD. Apparently, a Chicago area Lexus dealer had already taken 9 deposits on the car, sight unseen with next to zero specifications known about the car. |
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05-12-2010, 08:32 AM | #128 | |
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05-12-2010, 08:40 AM | #129 | |
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Your analysis is wrong. I never said because one car is faster than another one should necessarily charge more but I did say they should be the same league. And frankly I don't see the LFA being worth $400k. And by your logic its a halo car and price doesn't matter so why not turn a profit? You've compared it to an Enzo. So why not charge $700-$800k? And there's a bit of a difference between a car that been in production evolving over time and a taking inspiration from a car that hasn't been made for 50 years.
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05-12-2010, 12:12 PM | #130 | |
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Perhaps they've done their own calculations as to what resale values would hurt the brand image rather than help and have come to the conclusion that ~$400k is about right. But just because Ferrari could have sold each Enzo at $1M doesn't mean the LFA is not worth $400k. Based on what I've read, yes. |
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