[SteVTEC]

Originally Posted by e85sbm

I don't think the posters from the US market really understand what is happening globally and in the EU market with the upcoming emissions restrictions.

Either BMW adapts and creates smaller, more efficient engines, or they pay massive taxes and fees, eventually going out of business. Does this really sound like something you guys want; BMW closing its doors forever?

I do understand. That doesn't require BMW to discontinue their naturally aspirated Inline-6 engine line and shove this new turbo 4-banger down everyone's throats whether they want it or not, though. I'm not upset that this new turbo-4 exists. It makes a lot of sense. I'm just upset that they're doing so at the expense of their NA Inline-6 line for which they've been known and praised for decades 'over here'.

[magbarn]

Originally Posted by e85sbm

I don't think the posters from the US market really understand what is happening globally and in the EU market with the upcoming emissions restrictions.

Either BMW adapts and creates smaller, more efficient engines, or they pay massive taxes and fees, eventually going out of business. Does this really sound like something you guys want; BMW closing its doors forever?

Then continue building NA I6 variants here in Spartanburg to be sold to the US market. I'd get a US built F30 if it mean I could get a NA I6. (I have a D now, but was planning on selling it and getting a F30 once my loans are paid off and won't have to drive to a rural area anymore!) We have dumb ass CAFE, but at least displacement isn't penalized and BMW can also avoid a ton of issues like currency exchange and tariffs.

[Tiz113]

you guys gotta remember how heavy are bimmers are not light like the s2000!

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Jason

See this schedule of the 4-cylinder switchover - http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478254

Seems September of this year will be the earliest we'll see this motor used.

When I made the original list of future turbo 4 candidates I left off the X1. I did that because it's release was imminent. So SCOTT didn't mention the date for it in his reply. I am pretty sure it will be out before September. I would think March, but that's just a guess. Of course, it won't be in the US that soon, but could be in Canada.

[amdmaxx]

Doesnt Audi make a 270hp version of 2.0? aka in Golf R..

[AW128i]

Originally Posted by amdmaxx

Doesnt Audi make a 270hp version of 2.0? aka in Golf R..

Yep, the Golf R has 265hp, as does the Audi TTS, and I think the S3 as well. The VW/Audi group basically has three iterations: 200 hp/207 lb-ft, 211 hp/258 lb-ft, and 265 hp/258 lb-ft. Those numbers are slightly different outside the U.S.

[JB135MDCT]

Originally Posted by maswastage

Sure you may average 24mpg in your 135, but how much of that is highway driving? I used to average 35 when my commute was 75% highway, but that's hardly a fair representation of "combined" mpg.

The math may be a bit off because the number I used for comparison, the 27 mpg combined figure for the US 335d, is demonstrably low. In 50-50 mixed driving it's actually closer to 30-31 mpg. Even using 31 in the proportion, the estimated efficiency for the 4 cylinder is 25.7. Not exactly ground breaking.

Steady 65 gets me 31+ mpg. 24-5 mpg 50-50 driving. Now drop 2 cylinders from an N55 and you get the new I4T, so the 25.7 mpg doesn't jive. If you make the new I4T with same power as the N55 then I might consider your #s.

[JoosyJoos]

Originally Posted by JB135MDCT

Steady 65 gets me 31+ mpg. 24-5 mpg 50-50 driving. Now drop 2 cylinders from an N55 and you get the new I4T, so the 25.7 mpg doesn't jive. If you make the new I4T with same power as the N55 then I might consider your #s.

You guys are forgetting one of the biggest variables yet. That number is the EPA (or European equivalent) for the X1... which is a significantly heavier vehicle than the 3 series and 1 series I am guessing. Just saying...

[Speedlogix]

That is pretty impressive!!

[e85sbm]

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

I do understand. That doesn't require BMW to discontinue their naturally aspirated Inline-6 engine line and shove this new turbo 4-banger down everyone's throats whether they want it or not, though. I'm not upset that this new turbo-4 exists. It makes a lot of sense. I'm just upset that they're doing so at the expense of their NA Inline-6 line for which they've been known and praised for decades 'over here'.

That sounds great and ideal, however, there would be a significant change in the cost of production to make 1 model for 1 market with 1 engine choice.

So instead of paying the typical prices you are accustomed to, you would be willing to pay a premium to have an I6?

[Robert]

wow 17 psi already...

[simianspeedster]

Originally Posted by e85sbm

Either BMW adapts and creates smaller, more efficient engines, or they pay massive taxes and fees, eventually going out of business. Does this really sound like something you guys want; BMW closing its doors forever?

Come on, now. That's a bit overdramatic, don't you think? Of course there's nothing wrong with BMW developing new, more efficient engines and stuffing them in their mainstream cars for those drivers who don't care as much about the details. There are many ways to balance the issue so BMW can meet the mainstream mileage and emissions goals while maintaining an enthusiast presence for those of us who care.

The regulations don't preclude BMW from continuing to offer enthusiast drivetrains, they'll just cost more and I'll pay the difference. If they're produced in high enough volume, BMW may incur some penalties which they'll all pass along -- I'll eat that to. It'll be similar to the gas guzzler tax today in the U.S. -- it's just the cost of doing business for some cars.

I fear that BMW will end up offering only 3 basic engines in the U.S. -- a turbo 4, a turbo 6 and a turbo 8 -- and the M cars will just have tweaked versions of these engines. That would be a huge disappointment, but if you think about it, that appears to be where BMW is headed in the U.S.

Quick, name a 2011 Honda that you really want to drive on a fun backroad. BMW should do it's best not to become a volume producer like Honda who prioritizes efficiency to the extent that they kill any red-blooded interest in the brand. Regulations and fear can't be allowed to dominate BMW's product development efforts.

Simply stated, BMW can't afford to sacrifice the sizeable performance enthusiast portion of their customer base or the brand will eventually erode and they'll lose their ability to charge premiums over other brands.

[quality_sound]

Originally Posted by Speedlogix

That is pretty impressive!!

No, it's really not.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by e85sbm

So that brings me to question, what will be the next engine produced as a detuned version of this engine, or potentially an all new engine to fill in the 323 position.

Depending on the model, It will either be a lower power version of the 2L turbo 4, a version of the new turbo 1.6L BMW/Mini motor, or even possibly a verssion of the new turbo 3 cylinder. The debut of the F20 1 series later this year should reveal a lot more detail in this area.

By the way, some countries have 16i (mabe 18i too, still) as their entry level gasoline model.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by AW128i

Yep, the Golf R has 265hp, as does the Audi TTS, and I think the S3 as well. The VW/Audi group basically has three iterations: 200 hp/207 lb-ft, 211 hp/258 lb-ft, and 265 hp/258 lb-ft. Those numbers are slightly different outside the U.S.

I thought there was a 230hp version too? Maybe in the Scirroco?

Anyway, this new BMW motor will likely be good news for VAG fans. I can see them responding by giving the 2L TFSI more power in certain vehicles. Even if they match BMW in practice using less power, paper specs sometimes sell cars.

[SteVTEC]

Originally Posted by e85sbm

That sounds great and ideal, however, there would be a significant change in the cost of production to make 1 model for 1 market with 1 engine choice.

So instead of paying the typical prices you are accustomed to, you would be willing to pay a premium to have an I6?

There's no reason that BMW couldn't sell and market turbo-4 and NA-6 engines alongside each other just as Mercedes and Audi have done and continue to do. It's a marketing decision by BMW to drop the NA-6 line so that they can tout an "all turbo petrol engine lineup". Don't think it has anything to do with cost.

[mkoesel]

I would not bet the farm on that continuing. Mercedes is know to have a 3L FI engine in development, and rumors suggest it will replace the 3.5L N/A. All other engine configurations (V12, V8, I4) are nearly exclusively turbo at this point (there are still a couple exceptions yes).

VAG contines to scale back the use of both their narrow angle and 90 degre V6, especially in Audi and VW models. The I5 obviously still has a place, but who knows for how long. Turbo 4L V8 is coming and will almost surely spell the end of the N/A 4.2L V8 and 5.2L V10 engines, and they are reportedly going to adopt the turbo W12 for the A8 also. The N/A engines might live in on the R8, but maybe not.

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

There's no reason that BMW couldn't sell and market turbo-4 and NA-6 engines alongside each other just as Mercedes and Audi have done and continue to do.

[SteVTEC]

^ Well even if they get rid of theirs also, I think it's more to do with the continual game of one-upsmanship and marketing stance than anything else.

Infiniti has no forced induction motors at the moment, and their 2.5L V6 in the G25 is said to be pretty refined and smooth and has a nice note. 7500rpm redline. Not quite as fast as an N52B30 because it's only 2.5L, but might be a pretty good substitute. I don't think it's likely that Honda/Acura is going to do away with NA powertrains, but it's a shame their entire product lineup is a snoozer at this point. Lexus pretty much all bore me but no turbo powertrains there either. So I think the 'NA torch' will continue, just a question of who will carry it, and if they'll manage to build anything worth buying.

I've changed my sig in honor of BMW's decision to drop NA engines.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I would not bet the farm on that continuing. Mercedes is know to have a 3L FI engine in development, and rumors suggest it will replace the 3.5L N/A. All other engine configurations (V12, V8, I4) are nearly exclusively turbo at this point (there are still a couple exceptions yes).

VAG contines to scale back the use of both their narrow angle and 90 degre V6, especially in Audi and VW models. The I5 obviously still has a place, but who knows for how long. Turbo 4L V8 is coming and will almost surely spell the end of the N/A 4.2L V8 and 5.2L V10 engines, and they are reportedly going to adopt the turbo W12 for the A8 also. The N/A engines might live in on the R8, but maybe not.

The next R8 may continue having a NA engine as top model, and a FI engine as entry model. I would say a ~ 450 HP V6. Why still keep a NA V10, simply because the coming Aventador will still get a NA V12, and so may the next Gallardo (Sessto Elemento) continue keeping its NA V10. And about the SLS AMG, I do not think the NA 6.3l V8 will be replaced by the BT 5.5l V8. I hope the Z8/Z10 will then also get the NA 5.5l V10 that was developped for the M5 F10.

[AW128i]

I don't know, the 6.2L V8 is being replaced by the twin-turbo V8 is MB's other "63" cars. I think it would be a mistake to keep the 6.2L under the hood of the SLS because the new TT V8 is both more powerful and more fuel-efficient.

[ScaredOnce]

Originally Posted by Franz Josef Popp

Great another EU greeny weeny
Lawn Mower engine.

Yup...

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

Come on, now. That's a bit overdramatic, don't you think? Of course there's nothing wrong with BMW developing new, more efficient engines and stuffing them in their mainstream cars for those drivers who don't care as much about the details. There are many ways to balance the issue so BMW can meet the mainstream mileage and emissions goals while maintaining an enthusiast presence for those of us who care.

The regulations don't preclude BMW from continuing to offer enthusiast drivetrains, they'll just cost more and I'll pay the difference. If they're produced in high enough volume, BMW may incur some penalties which they'll all pass along -- I'll eat that to. It'll be similar to the gas guzzler tax today in the U.S. -- it's just the cost of doing business for some cars.

I fear that BMW will end up offering only 3 basic engines in the U.S. -- a turbo 4, a turbo 6 and a turbo 8 -- and the M cars will just have tweaked versions of these engines. That would be a huge disappointment, but if you think about it, that appears to be where BMW is headed in the U.S.

Quick, name a 2011 Honda that you really want to drive on a fun backroad. BMW should do it's best not to become a volume producer like Honda who prioritizes efficiency to the extent that they kill any red-blooded interest in the brand. Regulations and fear can't be allowed to dominate BMW's product development efforts.

Simply stated, BMW can't afford to sacrifice the sizeable performance enthusiast portion of their customer base or the brand will eventually erode and they'll lose their ability to charge premiums over other brands.

\

Well said!

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

^ Well even if they get rid of theirs also, I think it's more to do with the continual game of one-upsmanship and marketing stance than anything else.

There's some of that going on of course, but some of the change is due to the effects of new emissions and fuel efficiency regulations.

Infiniti has no forced induction motors at the moment, and their 2.5L V6 in the G25 is said to be pretty refined and smooth and has a nice note.

True, at least in the US (and maybe elsewhere too, if we exclude diesels) but Nissan does have both turbocharged I4 and V6 gasoline engines. I suspect they will increase the us of these globally throughout this decade.

I don't think it's likely that Honda/Acura is going to do away with NA powertrains, but it's a shame their entire product lineup is a snoozer at this point. Lexus pretty much all bore me but no turbo powertrains there either. So I think the 'NA torch' will continue, just a question of who will carry it, and if they'll manage to build anything worth buying.

Yes, and I think it is significant that the number of "interesting" naturally aspirated motors is dwindling. The reality is, it is becoming more difficult to make sporty cars with high revving or large displacement motors. Ironically, GM, Ford and Xler may be the ones who carry the torch for the longest. All of them still make (and apparently plan to continue making) high power V6 and V8 engines without forced induction. Though I suppose it is perhaps not so ironic when you consider they need to keep refining these engines for truck duty. But we'll see how Ford's EcoBoost F150 does. If they can win over the customer base, they may begin to de-emphasize their V8 offerings later in the decade with the next generation of the truck.