[TX]

Hey, I just want to know. Am I the only one who finds it totally insane that a nuke plant cant run it's cooling pumps or it's shutdown systems without off-site power? It's a freaking nuke plant that boils water > makes steam > turns a turbine > turns a generator > makes power. One reactor makes 784MW of power. Why on earth would this design not include a way to use it's own electricity to control the cooling pumps and shutdown sequences. I'm pretty sure that idea should have been on the design plans.

Also, They had 1 hour before the tsunami hit the plant after the earth quake during which time they did have emergency generators running. I really hope we dont find out that they failed to initiate shutdown procedures during that time. Depending on the reactor it takes 4 seconds to insert the inerting control rods and reduce the reactor to around or below 7% of it's output. Man I hope they didn't skip that thinking no tsunami was coming and they wanted to keep their output running.
-TX

[jpsum]

The reactors were designed to shut down automatically when it detects an earthquake. Therefore, no power from the reactors.

They do have diesel generators for backup purpose. However, the seawater caused them to fail.

Also, it takes a long time for the reactor to cool. The problem was not the failure for shutdown, but failure for cooling the core AFTER the shutdown.

[Samoht]

Tokyo Electric Corp has a bad track record of managing and coming clean with the state of its Nuclear reactors... do a wiki.

Basically whatever the official word is coming outta there, multiple it by 3x, thats how bad it is. (Lehman is fine, ...oops GFC)

[darkcloud]

being that reactors are basically on top of the ocean why wouldn't theyput them in water tight rooms? seems reasonable. no entrances, cracks, utilities to enter the building until they are 20, 30 feet off the ground or whatever is deemed safest.

[Feyd]

Originally Posted by darkcloud

being that reactors are basically on top of the ocean why wouldn't theyput them in water tight rooms? seems reasonable. no entrances, cracks, utilities to enter the building until they are 20, 30 feet off the ground or whatever is deemed safest.

This sounds plausible.... until the ground shifts 8'+ durring an earthquake. Hard to design a room + utilities that will remain water/air/etc tight under those circumstances.


I too think things are probobly way worse than they're letting on as well. Hopefully people can get the F outta there before their hair and teeth start falling out. With the way the world uses power thus necessitating the reactors this is just part of the risk that we (as a race) have to accept as the trade-off.

I am pro-nuclear, but am always weary of reactor melt-downs since there are a few that are geographically close to me. I hope that the regulating bodies learn from this and improve all fail-safes/proceedures in case of catastrophies like this. Unfortunatly it usually takes a massive failure/loss of life to make those changes.

[z4nhy3uz]

I believe they are still trying to cool the core but are unsuccessfully at this time. I hope they can utilize the US government for assistant.

[gun6slinger9]

I'm sure if it was as easy as you said to control a nuclear reactor everything would be fine by now.

[PAKMAN]

are we going to die?

[tarheel91]

ITT: I know more about designing a nuclear power plant than teams of engineers who spent a decade of their life learning how to do exactly that!

[nightfx]

Originally Posted by tarheel91

ITT: I know more about designing a nuclear power plant than teams of engineers who spent a decade of their life learning how to do exactly that!

The Japanese aren't dumb. It's unfortunate, but they're doing the best they can right now.

[Gearcraft]

Originally Posted by Feyd

This sounds plausible.... until the ground shifts 8'+ durring an earthquake. Hard to design a room + utilities that will remain water/air/etc tight under those circumstances.

+1. i am taking a seismic design class right now and my instructor is a consultant to the seismic safety commission of California. he has designed a nuclear power plant and he told us that we can design things properly but nothing really is guaranteed. we design to the MCE (maximum considered earthquake) and we really cant infinitely spend money on something so its going to have a limit after reasonable safety considerations. nuclear power plants have the strictest codes. although in some cases there are negligence, an earthquake like this i think really is just hard to beat.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by PAKMAN

are we going to die?

Just you

Originally Posted by nightfx

The Japanese aren't dumb. It's unfortunate, but they're doing the best they can right now.

iirc GE built those reactors....

[TX]

Site 1 has 6 reactors
Site 2 has 4 reactors
for a total of 10 reactors.

I'll skip my write up and just post you the info I have from reliable sources.


Fukushima No. 1 plant

-- Reactor No. 1 - Cooling failure, partial melting of core, vapor vented, building damaged Saturday by hydrogen explosion, seawater being pumped in.

-- Reactor No. 2 - Cooling failure, seawater being pumped in, fuel rods fully exposed temporarily, vapor vented, building damaged Monday by blast at Reactor No. 3, damage to containment vessel on Tuesday, potential meltdown feared.

-- Reactor No. 3 - Cooling failure, partial melting of core feared, vapor vented, seawater being pumped in, building damaged Monday by hydrogen explosion, high-level radiation measured nearby on Tuesday, plume of smoke observed Wednesday, damage to containment vessel likely.

-- Reactor No. 4 - Under maintenance when quake struck, fire Tuesday possibly caused by hydrogen explosion at pool holding spent fuel rods, pool water level not observed, fire observed Wednesday at building housing reactor, no water poured in to cool pool.

-- Reactor No. 5, No. 6 - Under maintenance when quake struck, temperature slightly rising in spent fuel pool.

Fukushima No. 2 plant

-- Reactor No. 1, No. 2, No. 4 - Cooling failure, then cold shutdown.

-- Reactor No. 3 - Cold shutdown.


Needless to say, this is not going to end well for about 200 miles of northern japan for a hundred+ years.

[TX]

Originally Posted by Blake

Just you



iirc GE built those reactors....

Yes, GE contracted the construction of those reactors. We have several of the same design here in the US. The construction is around 40 years old. From the latest photos I've seen there's nothing left of the outer building and all of the internal pumping systems and structure is destroyed from the reactors which had explosions. Only the inner containment dome remains and it will have to vent pressure which will contain radioactive material since the fuel rods are now releasing their radioactive pellets into the bottom of the core. Once that happens there really is no stopping it. If the fuel rods were contained still they could possibly have been removed at some point, but once they melt into a mass at the bottom it's basically the end of the road for recovery and this will be burning for a long time, longer than any of us will be alive to see the end of it.

[TX]

Originally Posted by nightfx

The Japanese aren't dumb. It's unfortunate, but they're doing the best they can right now.

No they certainly are not dumb by any means and in fact we ask them for help on issues a lot. Having said that, I am VERY worried that their pride in their culture and their country may have cost them dearly. The Japanese will never admit to being unable to cope with something, it's just the way they are and I admire them for it. However this might be their downfall, there was a very short window at the start of this when they clearly knew they were over their heads with 4 out of 10 damaged reactors when they should have just been open and said "whoops, we need some help" I'm pretty sure the international community could have put together a few flights with generators, pumps and fuel plus a number of crew and engineers to put on site. 4 days into this is too late to put the melted rods back together. I hope they have a LOT of concrete in japan.