[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Simsims

so much hate and bashing

people forget their ancestors were pirates and outlaws, or poor europeans looking for a free piece of land, or screwing with natives to get an edge

OP is a good man, maybe didn't make the most LAWFUL move, but is still a good man.

Yeah, some of the comments have been hateful, immature, prejudiced, and short sighted.

I don't hate on the OP. He did what he thought was right at the time.

I don't get the meaning of your comment about ancestors.
You are right that the majority of us in the US have ancestors that came from somewhere else. And, this country came into existence through inhuman treatment, stealing, violence, and all manner of inhumane actions towards the natives, slaves, and among the various Europeans who came here.
In a positive note, the US has spent at least a good half century TRYING to make amends for those actions, and we've got a ways to go still.

But, just because this country exists due to many of those negatives, that doesn't excuse or give right to people to come here illegally and commit crimes without consequences.
Over the past 400+ years this country has become more civilized and we have a system of laws that helps guide us towards greater civility.
We can't just throw away all the progress and act like it's still 400 years ago.
Well, we can, but I don't want to live in that type of country.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by FJUNO78

The hospital bills this pregnant illegal immigrant will run up, coupled with the cost of educating her child (who will be a US citizen), the medicaid, and multiple other benefits the child will be entitled to... all makes up for the fact that she does a job no one else wants to do. Please.

This country is headed for disaster.

Headed?
We're in it!
But, it's for many reasons, the illegal immigrant issue is but a crouton in the big salad of troubling issues.

You know, that whole "Americans don't want these jobs" is a loaded argument that reeks of propaganda from businesses.
There are a LOT of US citizens who do gardening, janitorial, home maintenance, farming, construction, etc...
There are plenty of US citizens who want and will do those jobs. It's just that they won't do them for under minimum wage with no benefits and not social security.

I blame the companies that hire illegal workers, because they hire them in order to increase their profits by not having to pay at least minimum wage and pay the employer portion of taxes for medicare and social security.
Does that mean I will have to pay more for my lettuce, tomatoes and some produce? Yes, it might. But it also means there is more money coming into the tax system from employees and employers, and right now most states and the federal government need more money.
The idiots don't know what it means to live on a budget cause the majority of them never had to.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by FJUNO78

I agree, you can't really blame the illegals, our liberal government enables this type of shenanigans.

It's not just the liberals.
The companies that hire illegals in order to get higher profits are business, and most business owners tend towards the conservative and Republican side of government.

The issues we deal with in our country were not created by only one side or the other.

I consider my self a social liberal and fiscal conservative.
Follow the money, that will lead you to who benefits from and wants to keep things in their favor.

[RPM90]

[QUOTE=BTM;9966056

Our current immigration laws are not only unrealistic, they are ineffective, and given the amount of estimated illegal immigrants in this country now, un-enforceable. Hence this discussion.[/QUOTE]

Specifics.

Unless you are specific in how the laws are "unrealistic", I don't know what you mean.

"Ineffective"?
Again, specific.
The only ineffectiveness I can see right now is that illegal immigrants are still getting into the country.
That would not make the law ineffective, it makes the enforcement of it ineffective.
But, does that excuse the illegal from being deemed to have broken the law?
They are called "illegal" immigrants for a reason.
"Undocumented" worker is a political term as it doesn't speak to legal status.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by BTM

Allowing workers to work for what a lesser regulated labor market is not subsidizing anything, it is again, the opposite, in that it is a more efficient distribution of human capital. This is not at all to say that labor markets need to be completely unregulated, of course.

Please clear that up as it's not making sense.

As written, you are making an argument that all labor should be of illegal status as that is somehow a "more efficient" distribution of human capital.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by BTM;9966184
I lived in Tucson for almost 5 years. There was and still is a ton of crime and gang activity. How do you know it's being committed by illegal immigrants? Can you tell me the percentage of violent crime committed by legal vs. illegal citizens? Probability says that some of it is, but those also say that it's not nearly the majority. Additionally, incentives would put illegal immigrants as [i

less[/i] likely to commit violent crime, as participating in such activities only increases the chances they get deported.

What's the percentage then?

Even if it's only 10%, it's 10% less if they weren't here in the first place.
Having a disincentive, like jail time for citizens, or deportation for illegals, doesn't seem to stop the activity for either side.
But, we still want illegal gang activity to be punished whether it's committed by an illegal or citizen.
You're assuming that participation in violent crime will decrease due to the chances of deportation. However, those who choose to engage in violent crime are not concerned with the law.

It actually doesn't matter what the percentage is as that leads us away from the issue of illegal immigration.
Coming into this country without proper legal authorization means you have committed a crime, the penalty is deportation.

Arguments for how illegal immigrants contribute to the GDP are political in nature, as they are an attempt to legitimize the unlawful act of coming into the country illegally.
Yes, many US citizens have an issue with that and rightfully so.

The contribution to GDP is a positive in the debate to change immigration policy. I agree with that.
However as I said, until that is done illegals are here illegally and there is a penalty for it.

[Freakazoid]

thread is turning non bigoted, yay

[BTM]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Specifics.

Unless you are specific in how the laws are "unrealistic", I don't know what you mean.

"Ineffective"?
Again, specific.
The only ineffectiveness I can see right now is that illegal immigrants are still getting into the country.
That would not make the law ineffective, it makes the enforcement of it ineffective.
But, does that excuse the illegal from being deemed to have broken the law?
They are called "illegal" immigrants for a reason.
"Undocumented" worker is a political term as it doesn't speak to legal status.

Unrealistic is further expounded upon in the excerpts from the papers I posted. What is unrealistic is the rigidity of the hard cap on Visa's currently available. No matter what the domestic labor market is calling for, the number of Visa's available does not change from 65,000, whether the labor market is calling for 10,000 or 10,000,000 workers (in the case we're discussing here, more than likely unskilled in positions that command minimum wage or lower).

I have never heard of mandating a hard cap as the most practical, effective, and efficient way of regulating any market. It's archaic, unresponsive, and undesirable. The most classic failures of capping supply can be found in prohibition (setting the cap at 0). All this does is move activity to grey and black markets, which is where the complaints of illegal immigration originate. If there were a realistic, responsive method for admitting immigrants into this country, these negative side effects would diminish. In the current system, demand exceeds supply. Anyone worth two shits knows that to move towards an efficient outcome, supply needs to expand and/or price needs to increase.

If you haven't read what what I posted beyond what you've been quoting I implore you too. I will be more than happy to email you the full length originals as well. I am 100% with you that it is a crime. I am a proponent of enforcing immigration laws from the demand side (from the producer's viewpoint, which is conversely the supply side from the immigrant's). Yes, the law is being broken. I'm not arguing that one bit. I'm arguing the law is broken, and that overall immigration is a good thing, both legal and illegal. Obviously minimizing illegal immigration is ideal, but given the current structure, it's unrealistic.

[FJUNO78]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I blame the companies that hire illegal workers, because they hire them in order to increase their profits by not having to pay at least minimum wage and pay the employer portion of taxes for medicare and social security.
Does that mean I will have to pay more for my lettuce, tomatoes and some produce? Yes, it might. But it also means there is more money coming into the tax system from employees and employers, and right now most states and the federal government need more money.
The idiots don't know what it means to live on a budget cause the majority of them never had to.

+10000000

this cheap labor does not necessarily translate to passed savings to the consumers... from what I see, it goes into the owners pocket.

the dude who owns the landscaping company my folks use drives a 911. He owns 2 houses. the man who owns the pizzeria by me wears a $15000 brietling and has a jaguar. He just opened another place in NYC and is in the process of moving there. Both of them use illegals.

both of these owners own businesses that offer products or services that take zero or minimal skill to provide. Yet they are living in the upper 5% because they are beating the system.

[BTM]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Headed?
We're in it!
But, it's for many reasons, the illegal immigrant issue is but a crouton in the big salad of troubling issues.

You know, that whole "Americans don't want these jobs" is a loaded argument that reeks of propaganda from businesses.
There are a LOT of US citizens who do gardening, janitorial, home maintenance, farming, construction, etc...
There are plenty of US citizens who want and will do those jobs. It's just that they won't do them for under minimum wage with no benefits and not social security.

I blame the companies that hire illegal workers, because they hire them in order to increase their profits by not having to pay at least minimum wage and pay the employer portion of taxes for medicare and social security.
Does that mean I will have to pay more for my lettuce, tomatoes and some produce? Yes, it might. But it also means there is more money coming into the tax system from employees and employers, and right now most states and the federal government need more money.
The idiots don't know what it means to live on a budget cause the majority of them never had to.

Minimum wage creates unemployment, no matter which you slice it. I don't blame companies for the gov't inability to understand what setting a price floor does to markets. Minimum wage (and any rigid wage for that matter) sounds good and everything, but really only creates under and unemployment.

[BTM]

Originally Posted by FJUNO78

+10000000

this cheap labor does not necessarily translate to passed savings to the consumers... from what I see, it goes into the owners pocket.

the dude who owns the landscaping company my folks use drives a 911. He owns 2 houses. the man who owns the pizzeria buy me wears a $15000 brietling and has a jaguar. He just opened another place in NYC and is in the process of moving there. Both of them use illegals.

both of these owners own businesses that offer products or services that take zero or minimal skill to provide. Yet they are living in the upper 5% because they are beating the system.

Sorry, but what someone drives or wears on their wrist is absolutely the wrong way to assess the effect of illegal immigration on prices. You cited landscaping, a non-tradeable good, where arbitrage is not feasible. In this case, immigration (both legal and illegal) increases the supply of workers, decreasing the price of unskilled labor, increasing the price of skilled labor. Why do your folks use this landscaping company? Are they cheaper? Or do they do a better job for the same amount as others (in effect, cheaper). Both instances increase both consumer and producer surplus. Your parents are getting the service they want for a price they agree on, and the producer is providing this service at a lower price to his customers and at a lower cost to him.

Edit: a previous post of mine with some emphasis relevant to this:

"The Effect of Low-Skilled Immigration on U.S. Prices: Evidence from CPI Data" by Patricia Cortes, University of Chicago

"low-skilled immigration benefits the native population by decreasing the nontraded-
goods component of the cost of living. At current U.S. immigration levels, a 10 percent
increase in the average city’s share of low-skilled immigrants in the labor force decreases the
price of immigrant-intensive services such as housekeeping and gardening by 2.1 percent, and
price of the average non-traded good (in terms of intensity in the use of low-skilled immigrants)
by 0.7 percent."

"The wage effects are sizeable but plausible: a 10 percent increase in the
number of low-skilled immigrants in a city reduces the wages of low-skilled natives by 1 percent
and of low-skilled immigrants by 8 percent (an own-labor demand elasticity of -1.2). My results
imply that the low-skilled immigration wave of the 1990s increased the purchasing power of
high-skilled workers living in the 25 largest cities by an average of 0.6 percent and decreased the
purchasing power of native high school dropouts by an average of 1.3 percent. I conclude that,
through lower prices, low-skilled immigration brings positive net benefits to the U.S. economy
as a whole, but generates a redistribution of wealth: it reduces the real income of low-skilled
natives and increases the real income of high-skilled natives."

[BTM]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Arguments for how illegal immigrants contribute to the GDP are political in nature, as they are an attempt to legitimize the unlawful act of coming into the country illegally.

No they aren't, GDP is a simple economic equation, not a tool for political spin. Just because the effect on GDP doesn't reflect what people think is happening, or what they agree with, doesn't mean those citing it are legitimizing anything. It's simply the outcome.

[chungdae]

You're lucky, many things could have/can still go wrong.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by Freakazoid

thread is turning non bigoted, yay

MUST FIX NAO!

Originally Posted by BTM

Minimum wage creates unemployment, no matter which you slice it. I don't blame companies for the gov't inability to understand what setting a price floor does to markets. Minimum wage (and any rigid wage for that matter) sounds good and everything, but really only creates under and unemployment.

Agreed. Minimum wage is about as good of an idea as putting your dick in a meat grinder.

[TiptronicSoldier]

I live in Dallas as well. Here if you have an accident and there are no injuries, the police will not show up to the scene.

I've been hit 3 times in the past 2 years in Dallas and the police have not showed up. I've always exchanged all information (Driver's License info, insurance info, license plate info) and taken photos of all of it with my cell phone. I immediately check to see if everyone is ok, get everyone to a safe area, then discuss what happened. After that I call their insurance if the other party is at fault.

Most times you will not have a witness so you need to be clear on your statement and describe everything that you can remember. This will cover your butt.

I have had friends get incorrect information and end up having to pay their own repair costs and once when I got rearended the other party's insurance spent way too long to get back to me because the other driver at fault would not answer phone calls. They immediately fixed it when I mentioned a lawyer.

If a person does not have insurance or a license, good samaritan or not, I believe one should still contact authority to cover your butt. Either way you will probably be responsible for repairs if they have no money but you do not want any questions unanswered and anything left to screw you over. If you can afford a car you can definitely afford to ride the public transit system, I see citizens using it all the time, and when i use the DART rail, I never see anyone asking me for a boarding pass.

Today I gave a person asking for money on the side of I35 a liter of water I had bought and at lunch another person came asking me for money to feed his wife and 2 kids when I left a restaurant in uptown with a client. I told him I could not give him money but I took time out of my day and gave him a ride in my SUV to Albertson's(grocery store) and bought 4 complete meal packs with drinks for him and his "family" then drew him a map on where to go to find work nearby at $10 an hour.

I am very giving but some people can be deceitful so I will not give money and in instances where an car accident happens I will do what is ultimately the right thing for society as a whole and report it to the police.

[tankus]

Originally Posted by TiptronicSoldier

I live in Dallas as well. Here if you have an accident and there are no injuries, the police will not show up to the scene.

I've been hit 3 times in the past 2 years in Dallas and the police have not showed up. I've always exchanged all information (Driver's License info, insurance info, license plate info) and taken photos of all of it with my cell phone. I immediately check to see if everyone is ok, get everyone to a safe area, then discuss what happened. After that I call their insurance if the other party is at fault.

Most times you will not have a witness so you need to be clear on your statement and describe everything that you can remember. This will cover your butt.

I have had friends get incorrect information and end up having to pay their own repair costs and once when I got rearended the other party's insurance spent way too long to get back to me because the other driver at fault would not answer phone calls. They immediately fixed it when I mentioned a lawyer.

If a person does not have insurance or a license, good samaritan or not, I believe one should still contact authority to cover your butt. Either way you will probably be responsible for repairs if they have no money but you do not want any questions unanswered and anything left to screw you over. If you can afford a car you can definitely afford to ride the public transit system, I see citizens using it all the time, and when i use the DART rail, I never see anyone asking me for a boarding pass.

Today I gave a person asking for money on the side of I35 a liter of water I had bought and at lunch another person came asking me for money to feed his wife and 2 kids when I left a restaurant in uptown with a client. I told him I could not give him money but I took time out of my day and gave him a ride in my SUV to Albertson's(grocery store) and bought 4 complete meal packs with drinks for him and his "family" then drew him a map on where to go to find work nearby at $10 an hour.

I am very giving but some people can be deceitful so I will not give money and in instances where an car accident happens I will do what is ultimately the right thing for society as a whole and report it to the police.

wow.. I live in Addison so there are cops everywhere. U get a flat tire and they are there. (trying to bust you for something) You seem to be a caring person too

[Ash83]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

OT- but you're NOT helping the woman or society.

She needs to:

1. Come to the U.S. legally or not come at all

2. Learn to drive properly, safely and get a driver's license

3. NOT operate an uninsured vehicle

4. Take personal responsibility for her actions

Supporting this woman's violations of numerous laws is a bad choice and is likely to create more crime and problems in the U.S. - which I and all tax payers end up paying for. Those who came to the U.S. legally take this type of situation as a real slap in the face, as they should.

I agree.. plus my friend learned the lesson the hard way and if this happened to me , i will call the cops to get the whole thing reported and documented to pretect myself in the future..