[clee1982]

Lots of personal evidence which is of course biased in our own circle, the guys care about driving dynamic is not enough to move the needle.

How many 911 does Porsche sell? Even if ALL of them move to BMW that would be 50,000?

[Miko M]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I don't really understand why you're so convinced that people don't care about how cars drive anymore.

Driving characteristics are very important to most of us. Besides functionality and look.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I don't really understand why you're so convinced that people don't care about how cars drive anymore.

SUV's and Jeeps are selling like hotcakes. None of these vehicles drive as well as the sedans and hatchbacks they are rapidly replacing. What more evidence do you need? It's pretty clear the masses today value sitting up high and having a better view of the road over driving dynamics. Absolutely some people care. I care, but there's simply not enough of us to butter the bread of automakers that have to maximise profits for shareholders.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

SUV's and Jeeps are selling like hotcakes. None of these vehicles drive as well as the sedans and hatchbacks they are rapidly replacing. What more evidence do you need? It's pretty clear the masses today value sitting up high and having a better view of the road over driving dynamics. Absolutely some people care. I care, but there's simply not enough of us to butter the bread of automakers that have to maximise profits for shareholders.

I take the opposite view of that-- modern cars drive like crap, so there's no reason to not have the increased space and visibility from an SUV. You're not losing out moving to an SUV, so why wouldn't you?

For cars to be compelling, when competing with SUVs, they need to drive better. As a result, there's our exodus.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I don't really understand why you're so convinced that people don't care about how cars drive anymore.

I'm not saying some drivers don't desire decent driving cars. What I observe many folks are not primarily looking for the best driving dynamics, there is much more to car buying/using these days. Plus most cars drive reasonably well, at the speeds we drive day to day.

If the best chassis dynamics were so important, here in the UK we'd see much greater sales for the Jaguar XE & XF. Both are rated as better than the 3 & 5-series. Users will give away that finer chassis for the better infotainment system and the total 'package' of the BMW. So what is driving sales?

Here in the UK the E9x models got a hammering by users for being too harsh and unforgiving. Many say the E90 was the last decent driving BMW 3-series. Why the contradiction, if driving dynamics comes first?

One of the biggest pieces of evidence for me, is summed up in three letters, SUV. So many who used to drive decent cars (even M-cars) have moved to an SUV/SAV. They say they prefer them and don't see going back to vehicles which enthusiasts would call driver's cars.

In the UK the SUV and crossover are getting ever more popular, users want more than simply a driver focused vehicle for their daily drive.

Many young folks are not into cars the way some of us were in our younger years, that also impacts on how they assess a car.

Add in the changes to practical driving, congestion, speed limits, enforcement, etc. Priorities have changed, to having greater luxuries and more comfort, for the drudgeries of driving.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

SUV's and Jeeps are selling like hotcakes. None of these vehicles drive as well as the sedans and hatchbacks they are rapidly replacing. What more evidence do you need? It's pretty clear the masses today value sitting up high and having a better view of the road over driving dynamics. Absolutely some people care. I care, but there's simply not enough of us to butter the bread of automakers that have to maximise profits for shareholders.

Sums it up... Plus the enthusiast base is not going to grow. I see the numbers decreasing as time goes on. EV will also impact on the driving enthusiast.

[Gamb1t]

Driving dynamics is irrelevant when people treat vehicles as transportation appliances.
With traffic congestion, hectic lifestyles, social media engagements, new tech etc... the act of driving is but a chore. This then comes down to a mindset of simply getting to a destination.
One can vex lyrical on sublime handling, driver engagement, steering feel etc etc, the reality is the predominant owners simply have other aspects of their life that takes precedent and they vote with their wallet.

[M 4EVER]

Originally Posted by Gamb1t

Driving dynamics is irrelevant when people treat vehicles as transportation appliances.
With traffic congestion, hectic lifestyles, social media engagements, new tech etc... the act of driving is but a chore. This then comes down to a mindset of simply getting to a destination.
One can vex lyrical on sublime handling, driver engagement, steering feel etc etc, the reality is the predominant owners simply have other aspects of their life that takes precedent and they vote with their wallet.

Wondering what % that is?
I des agree on that. I would drive a Prius them and save money. Lol

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by M 4EVER

Wondering what % that is?
I des agree on that. I would drive a Prius them and save money. Lol

Does the % really matter, except to the marketing guys?

Why an "all or nothing" approach? Middle ground suits most. Many of the BMW models are in the middle ground, same as most Audi and Merc models.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Does the % really matter, except to the marketing guys?

Why an "all or nothing" approach? Middle ground suits most. Many of the BMW models are in the middle ground, same as most Audi and Merc models.

The problem is, BMW isn't actually as good at making cars as, say, Mercedes, Lexus, etc. So, if they compete on middle of the road blandness without differentiation, they're at a disadvantage. I think they got away with this for a while, because the brand has residual prestige from when they made good cars. But now people are catching on...

But, hey, at least they have gesture controls.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Obioban

The problem is, BMW isn't actually as good at making cars as, say, Mercedes, Lexus, etc. So, if they compete on middle of the road blandness without differentiation, they're at a disadvantage. I think they got away with this for a while, because the brand has residual prestige from when they made good cars. But now people are catching on...

But, hey, at least they have gesture controls.

We don't see it this way over this side of the pond.

The BMW 3-series in the guise of the G20 is top of the pack in the UK, beating the Merc, Audi, Jaguar, Alfa (and almost forgot, there is a Lexus).

As an example from AutoCar:

The BMW 320d has been as consistent a contender for the title of ‘best car in the real world’ as the industry has made in decades – and the new G20 version has unquestionably raised its game. It’s better in ways that will greatly please long-time 3 Series owners – outright performance and sporting flair, as well as handling precision and driver appeal – but also in others that make it a more complete executive car.

Lost their way? Make your own judgement.

[Obioban]

Meanwhile a Suburban had shorter stopping distances than the F30

[pz619]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Meanwhile a Suburban had shorter stopping distances than the F30

Bullshit.

Quick internet search showed that most F30 is 108-115 ft. Suburban seems to be 126 ft or longer. Maybe you can find an example that's shorter, but on average the braking distance HEAVILY favors the F30.

Anyways, I digress. Do we all want sportier cars on this forum? Sure, it's an enthusiast forum. So, unless you and I are buying about a 1000 cars this year, they're probably going to go with what the majority wants. The majority wants techier, softer, more comfortable cars. So this is what they are building. Plus they sell M cars for people like you and me. Can't imagine driving my M2 around and thinking that it needs to "sportier".

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by pz619

Bullshit.

Quick internet search showed that most F30 is 108-115 ft. Suburban seems to be 126 ft or longer. Maybe you can find an example that's shorter, but on average the braking distance HEAVILY favors the F30.

Anyways, I digress. Do we all want sportier cars on this forum? Sure, it's an enthusiast forum. So, unless you and I are buying about a 1000 cars this year, they're probably going to go with what the majority wants. The majority wants techier, softer, more comfortable cars. So this is what they are building. Plus they sell M cars for people like you and me. Can't imagine driving my M2 around and thinking that it needs to "sportier".

Car and Driver pointed it out in their F30 review.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Meanwhile a Suburban had shorter stopping distances than the F30

Guess that's your next vehicle.

Seriously what model BMW F30? What brake package?

BTW, had to look up Suburban.... do you guys really drive those monstrous things?

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Of course bmw’s current customers don’t care about how the cars drive. If they did, they wouldn’t be driving modern bmws.

That doesn’t mean that a customer that does care no longer exists.

I don't understand this! Obviously I'm not every driver but I absolutely love my M4, more than any BMW I've owned for the past 20 years!

Am I old? Have I given up on life? Should I get an automatic? WHO KNOWS!

[pz619]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Car and Driver pointed it out in their F30 review.

Couldn't find that reference, but did find this. Bold emphasis is mine.

"This time around, our test car’s demerits accumulated in other performance categories. The skidpad score, for example, came in at 0.86 g, versus 0.89 in 2013. More lamentable—make that dismal—was this car’s braking distance: 186 feet from 70 mph. There was never a trace of fade, but that’s 22 feet longer than our 2013 test car’s performance. However, we think these grip and braking stats can be easily improved. Simply discard the all-season run-flat tires—in this case Pirelli Cinturato P7, size 225/45-18—and substitute some real performance rubber. "

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Guess that's your next vehicle.

Seriously what model BMW F30? What brake package?

BTW, had to look up Suburban.... do you guys really drive those monstrous things?

I own a suburban. I don't use it as a car-- I use it when I need to tow something or transport more than 4 people or drive through deep snow. I haven't driven it all year-- in fact, I'm pretty sure it still has studded snow tires mounted on it from last winter.

Nothing is better than a suburban tasks. Happily I almost never have to do suburban tasks anymore, since I sold the race car

Originally Posted by pz619

Couldn't find that reference, but did find this. Bold emphasis is mine.

"This time around, our test car’s demerits accumulated in other performance categories. The skidpad score, for example, came in at 0.86 g, versus 0.89 in 2013. More lamentable—make that dismal—was this car’s braking distance: 186 feet from 70 mph. There was never a trace of fade, but that’s 22 feet longer than our 2013 test car’s performance. However, we think these grip and braking stats can be easily improved. Simply discard the all-season run-flat tires—in this case Pirelli Cinturato P7, size 225/45-18—and substitute some real performance rubber. "

Cars are designed around the performance characteristics of the tires they ship with. Changing the tire absolutely would improve the stopping distances, but you'd no longer have a car properly calibrated for its tires.

... and run flats aren't so easy to discard, now that BMW no longer has spare tire wells on their cars... though I do agree they are ruinous

Combining those two points, when I first got our e91 I had to get rid of the runflats because they were godawful (like all runflats). Upon doing so, the car immediately felt like it was body on frame, with worn our bushings.... aka really, really bad. This feeling persisted till I went to M3 subframe bushings and converted the front control arms to M3 parts.

(e91 ended up being too new for me, a step too far gone. Far happier with the e46 M3 wagon that replaced it, with full size spare :P)

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Cars are designed around the performance characteristics of the tires they ship with. Changing the tire absolutely would improve the stopping distances, but you'd no longer have a car properly calibrated for its tires.

Isn't this a BMW NA decision, to have lower performance All-Season tires? You also have a lower top speed limiter as well, don't you?

We don't have that compromise here in the UK, we have OEM performance summer tires and the higher speed limiter.

[clee1982]

yea, in the US it's all season RFT by default across the mid to lower tier...

[pz619]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Isn't this a BMW NA decision, to have lower performance All-Season tires? You also have a lower top speed limiter as well, don't you?

We don't have that compromise here in the UK, we have OEM performance summer tires and the higher speed limiter.

It's also a no cost option here in the US. When I got my F30 in 2013, it came with performance tires but could be optioned with "no cost" all season tires if one desired it. This was actually before the better brakes with fixed calipers could be speced in later years. There was absolutely no issue with the brakes and they dropped anchor far better than the s2000 I had before that. And NOBODY calls the s2k a poor drivers car.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Do you really think there are enough customers out there wanting the more hardcore vehicle these days? Enough to turn the clock backwards for BMW?

I have my doubts. When you read some of the customer reviews and how they felt BMW models, (of a couple generations back), rode too hard, lacked comfort, etc. The writing was on the wall, for BMW to soften the cars. I see it that BMW responded to customer demand. A few vocal enthusiasts and road testers didn't like the new direction. Many users see an improvement in what they want from BMW. Now we see such things as the infotainment system, often being the deciding factor of what brand to get into. I see a changed motoring world, changing as we move forward, but not in the direction of the past.

I may be wrong, but reading some of the technical press, which looks at the wider transport market, BMW (or any of the other marques) won't be going back to the good old days. We are in a different era. M-cars are the models, to fill the need of the hard core driver. The M-performance models bridge the divide.

I do believe that to be the case. Look at it this way, BMW got to where it is, sales wise, by having fun to drive vehicles. X series cars have always been slightly sportier than their direct competition. BMW accomplished this through differentiated parts and setups. Now they are ditching that approach. I'm calling it now; the gap will narrow, BMW won't pull ahead in sales. The cars are so close now between the germans that sales will come down to whoever has 0% financing or doesnt charge for android auto or whatever.

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

If they did, BMW would likely lose sales to Audi and Merc. There are so many comparisons to them both, even on this very forum... Audi "do this better", Merc "do that better", type comments. Luxuries, onboard tech', tech' integration and the like, are what folks want today, including the typical BMW driver.

As I mentioned yesterday (in the other topic), there seems to be more interest in how Carplay integrates, than driving dynamics, when reviewing the latest BMWs. And that is on here, a BMW enthusiast forum.

I see BMW going back to the "BMW of old" would, without some clever innovations we are unaware of, be company suicide.

The "typical" BMW driver is driving an M2 or 340 these days. The new BMW driver is the Hyundai driver who shells out 10% more to get a BMW badge and gets an X1/X3 etc.