[TailgatingBMW]

While I agree the ZF 8-speed is close to perfection in pretty much any application you put it in, it doesn't match a dual-clutch transmission in terms of sharpness or shifting speed. In my opinion the new M5 will be a downgrade from the F10 M, transmission-wise.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

The M3 hasn't been track focused since the first M3.
The M3/M4 is built off of a sedan chassis, and the Porsche 911 is a sports car. You should know this since you have an M4. It is not a sports car. It is not meant for the track first, street second. And many complain that the Porsche has gotten softer as it grown to cater to a larger customer base . If BMW wanted a more track focused 3/4 series and M3/M4, then they would not have gone and stretched the wheel base of the E9X platform and made it heavier. They would have lengthened it a tad compared to the e46 and tried to keep similar proportions. But that would not have been a good business decision. Again, the 911 is a sports car, just like the Corvette. The M4 based off of the F3X chassis is not a sports car or has a sports car chassis, it is compromised.

But, I do agree with your first point. BMW knows that there are a lot of people who go to the dealership and just want the most expensive car, which is generally the M cars. Just like they do at the Mercedes dealership---they go for the AMG models. Or the Audi dealership---the RS models. Or the Caddy dealership---the V models. And for these people, who go and just buy the most expensive model don't want harsh rides, body hugging seats, loud exhausts, high revving engines, and cars that feel like race cars. They don't care about 0-60 times, they care about "wafting easily through traffic". They don't care about 60-0 braking, but they care about brake caliper colors and the car knowing that something is in front of them and braking for them. They don't care about carbon roofs, but they do care about interiors and how they go with their Breitling or Rolex. And most important, they care about what others think of them.

So true but oh so LAME!

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by AlterZgo

The comments about manuals not being strong enough to handle the high HP and torque seems to be a crock of crap. Even back in the import tuner days, a turbocharged Civic putting out 500 hp and 400+ ft/lbs of torque did not blow up manual transmissions which were designed to only handle 190 hp and 150 ft/lbs of torque.

I have rarely, if ever, heard of manual transmissions blowing up due to wear and tear or too much HP on fixed up cars running 2-3x or more stock hp and torque. What we usually see are worn out clutches and money shifts blowing them up. That's it. OTOH, I see many many many complaints, stories, etc. about old school automatics not being able to handle the HP, dodgy "upgrades" sold by Level 10 and their ilk that provide minimal if any gains in power handling, or no upgrades at all for standard automatics to handle more power.

How the heck does Ford and Chevrolet build manual equipped GT500s and Z06s if "450 hp and 600Nm (442 lb/ft) of torque was more or less the limit of manual-gearbox durability?" These cars make about 200 more hp and torque and seem to have reliable manuals.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the reason a Civic's MT gear box was able to survive the HP and torque from modded engines is because of the FWD configuration. You stomp on a FWD car at a stop, the initial launch and weight transfer is going to shift the load rearward. For a rear wheel drive configuration that weight transfer is going to keep the force applied to the driving wheels which keeps the drive train stressed.

[Eddien123]

Originally Posted by NickyC

Another day, another reason to not get another BMW.

Exactly. Porsche Cayman GTS here I come

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

. If BMW wanted a more track focused 3/4 series and M3/M4, then they would not have gone and stretched the wheel base of the E9X platform and made it heavier. They would have lengthened it a tad compared to the e46 and tried to keep similar proportions.

It's called a 1, then 2, series.

[zx10guy]

Seems like the BMW mothership needs to pull in the management team from the Motorad division to run at least the M division. What I've been seeing with the development of the S1000RR is what everyone here wishes would happen to the M cars. The tech being added to the S1000RR isn't used to soften up the ride but to extract more performance out of the platform. The active suspension that was first introduced in the HP4 and is now standard on the "base" bike is indicative of this. Had first hand experience with this suspension improvement when I was able to spin up the rear wheel powering out of turn 17 at VIR going into the front straight. The bike stayed compose and gave me enough confidence that I stayed on the power through the power slide.

[Eddien123]

Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY

how can automatics be faster than a dct?

Well technically speaking a clutch with gear selection like a DCT will be faster but apparently (and I'm calling complete bs on this) the auto box can handle more torque so they can make more power and therefore be faster.

[Esteban]

I am well aware of the issues some 135i owners have reported with their DCTs but I have had zero problems with mine since the day I took possession of my car in October 2010. It has been a flawless transmission for me that shifts both up and down exceptionally fast and never misses a beat. Turning on the A/C has no negative affect on the DCT in my car, like it does for some others.

I drive with the sport button pressed and the gear selector pushed to the left in M/S position and do all my own shifting. I would actually prefer a manual but because of a permanent injury to my left ankle I can no longer work a clutch. My first 135i was an '08 with the Steptronic transmission and I think the DCT is much faster and a total blast to drive.

I have read many of the posts zx10guy has written about his DCT woes and sympathize with him. We are fellow 1ADDICTS and I respect his opinion and appreciate his situation. This is not to start an argument but instead wanted to share my experience with my 135i and the DCT. Very happy with mine and think that BMW and other car makers should offer us enthusiasts the transmission of our choice.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Esteban

I am well aware of the issues some 135i owners have reported with their DCTs but I have had zero problems with mine since the day I took possession of my car in October 2010. It has been a flawless transmission for me that shifts both up and down exceptionally fast and never misses a beat. Turning on the A/C has no negative affect on the DCT in my car, like it does for some others.

I drive with the sport button pressed and the gear selector pushed to the left in M/S position and do all my own shifting. I would actually prefer a manual but because of a permanent injury to my left ankle I can no longer work a clutch. My first 135i was an '08 with the Steptronic transmission and I think the DCT is much faster and a total blast to drive.

I have read many of the posts zx10guy has written about his DCT woes and sympathize with him. We are fellow 1ADDICTS and I respect his opinion and appreciate his situation. This is not to start an argument but instead wanted to share my experience with my 135i and the DCT. Very happy with mine and think that BMW and other car makers should offer us enthusiasts the transmission of our choice.

Thanks for responding. I know there are those you out there with perfectly functioning DCT setups. I'm just upset that BMW hasn't figured out or done anything to correct the problems for those of us which are plagued by the problems reported. Especially when the problems can cause issues which can result in a crash.

[Ric in RVA]

BMW RACE CAR M235 around the 'ring with a ZF locked into manual mode. Pretty damn amazing if you ask me. That being said I still want my manual.

[Bosozoku]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

OMG Car and Driver ... much better name than Car and Operator ..

"Car and Passenger" - self-driving car zine

"Car and Users" - self-driving on-demand ride-sharing car zine

[MightyMouseTech]

DCT does have an inherent flaw. If the transmission decides to downshift two gears, the trans must engage the clutch on that shaft, change the gear, then reengage the same clutch. There will be a delay while that happens. Every DCT car I have driven does this, there is no way around it, it is like that by design. An automatic can smoothly go from pretty much any gear to any gear, just like a manual.

[GeorgeA]

They are slowly ruining everything M stands for. Whats next, open diffs for all M cars? Or AWD maybe, that would be a great way to dilute the brand even more. Sales are also dropping so not sure if anyone realizes this at BMW. Stick to what you're good at, let GM make high hp automatic cars.

[Eau_Rouge111]

Originally Posted by GeorgeA

They are slowly ruining everything M stands for. Whats next, open diffs for all M cars? Or AWD maybe, that would be a great way to dilute the brand even more. Sales are also dropping so not sure if anyone realizes this at BMW. Stick to what you're good at, let GM make high hp automatic cars.

That was done a long time ago...My Z4M Coupe has 3 "M"s on it...one on the back of the trunk and 1 on either side of the front fenders. How many do the non M 2 series, 3 , 4, 5 etc series have?? Like 20 each??

[FastEddie]

Originally Posted by BhamDavid

I saw that this was coming and is the reason why I bought my M3. It could be one of the last manual transmission BMWs. I plan to keep it a fairly long time and it could be worth a nice price when I eventually sell it.

One of the reasons why I also went with a manual M4.

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by Eau_Rouge111

That was done a long time ago...My Z4M Coupe has 3 "M"s on it...one on the back of the trunk and 1 on either side of the front fenders. How many do the non M 2 series, 3 , 4, 5 etc series have?? Like 20 each??

I believe, unless you've swapped rims, you have one on each wheel...so, more like 7!

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by m4282

This says it all- BMW wants to now make m cars for "all" not just for enthusiasts. That's the problem. The f8x is a good example- it's a street car which is trackable rather than track car that can be driven in the street- mclaren, and the new 991.2s and up is track focused first and street second.

Don't get me wrong I love my m4 but it's not track first and this is ok for me as while I autox it and do DE events I haul groceries and my two kids more often than I do autox or DE events

I wouldn't say that.. I would say in order for BMW to make a DCT that can cope with 600 ft-lbs plus of torque the tranny would be PDK expensive and that in turn would be passed onto the customer. How many people would pay 4k for a tranny on a 50k/ 60k M2/M3? M5/ M6, maybe. When you can get a 8speed ZF off the shelf that can deal with it, that's proven and shifts 95% as fast, and doesn't come with the cons of DCT.

A lot of the said mention manufactures can charge that or the transaction price can cover the cost of the tranny that deals with big power.

Porsche again makes almost 15k a car on every car it sells, and the last gen PDK is $3200 USD. Everything in the Porsche lineup has it, minus the current gen Cayenne which the next gen will move over to the soon to be common 8speed PDK.

[Eau_Rouge111]

Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci

I believe, unless you've swapped rims, you have one on each wheel...so, more like 7!

Ha!! good catch!! Yes I do have different wheels on the car...the 18"wheels are stored but there is one other M on the speedometer I forgot about and 1 on either side of the door jams?? so u only see them if the doors are open ...so 6 M's for me.

[135iMsportCoupe]

My 2010 135i was the last of the non DCT automatics. It shifts so quickly that I could never understand why they went to DCT, but figured it's from BMW so it MUST be better somehow. Lesson learned.

BTW, I had a 2007 Cayman S with Tiptronic paddle shifters and always thought my 135i's shifts were WAY snappier.

[AlterZgo]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the reason a Civic's MT gear box was able to survive the HP and torque from modded engines is because of the FWD configuration. You stomp on a FWD car at a stop, the initial launch and weight transfer is going to shift the load rearward. For a rear wheel drive configuration that weight transfer is going to keep the force applied to the driving wheels which keeps the drive train stressed.

Sure, that may have helped w/ longevity... but we are talking about cars running huge front slicks and 3x+ more hp and torque than stock. Import drag racers all agreed the MT in these Civics and Integras were pretty much bulletproof.

Juxtapose that against any early 2000s Honda V6 automatics that were made of glass and, well, one can infer that manuals are typically much more durable than traditional automatics.

That's not to say current automatics are poor. I'm sure the tech has advanced greatly and they are very durable. My only argument is that this alleged 450 hp/442 ft lb torque restriction for reliable manuals seems to be total fantasy rather than an actual reason for discontinuing manuals.

I'll totally agree with the premise of discontinuing manuals because very very very few people want them and it's not cost effective at all... but I disagree with the false claim that they are somehow weaker than automatics.

[50shadesofhockenheim]

Originally Posted by Eau_Rouge111

That was done a long time ago...My Z4M Coupe has 3 "M"s on it...one on the back of the trunk and 1 on either side of the front fenders. How many do the non M 2 series, 3 , 4, 5 etc series have?? Like 20 each??

My M sport 335i has it on the front door sills and one on the steering wheels.. so 3 (I have aftermarket wheels so none on that anymore haha)

[fbsm]

The bit about MT's not being able to handle the stress is a load of bullschtein

If the LESS complicated MT cant be manufactured to handle the load then there is ZERO chance that the Auto/DC cant be made to do so.