[Lady Jane]

Originally Posted by Llarry

Agree. My post was more wondering if there was a place in today's maritime environment for a very large surface combatant.

It would certainly be a coveted trophy for an enemy sub.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

It would certainly be a coveted trophy for an enemy sub.

Only exceeded by bagging an aircraft carrier!

[Llarry]

On November 29, 1944, the U.S. Navy submarine USS Archerfish (SS 311) sank the largest aircraft carrier to be built before the 1950s. The Japanese carrier Shinano of 60,000-plus tons was not yet complete but was ordered to transport a load of suicide planes to southern Japan. The Shinano departed Yokosuka on Tokyo Bay heading for Kure.

The Archerfish detected the Japanese carrier and her escorts on radar on the evening of the 29th. The Japanese detected the Archerfish's radar emissions but continued the journey. While the carrier had a speed advantage, it was zig-zagging and thus reducing its speed of advance. The Archerfish managed to get into firing position and fired four torpedoes, all of which hit.

The Americans did not realize which carrier they had gotten until war's end.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japane...arrier_Shinano

[Lady Jane]

Originally Posted by Llarry

The Americans did not realize which carrier they had gotten until war's end.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japane...arrier_Shinano

Sunk ten days after sea trials... Bye, bye newbie.

[Llarry]

Shinano was the largest, but not the only, IJN carrier sunk by American submarines during World War II. The others:
-- IJNS Taiho sunk June 19, 1944 by USS Albacore (SS 218) with a single torpedo hit
-- IJNS Shokaku sunk 19 June as well but by USS Cavalla (SS 244) (All these ships were participants in the battle of the Philippine Sea)
-- IJNS Unryu sunk December 19, 1944 by USS Redfish (SS 395)

Carrier aircraft sank another eight IJN carriers during the war with bombs and torpedoes; the photo is of IJNS Zuiho under attack during the battle of Leyte Gulf on October 25, 1944.

[Llarry]

These recent posts remind me of the submariner's saying: "There are two types of combat ships: Submarines and targets."

Note, however, that the incredible historical successes of U.S. Navy and German navy submarines in World War II were balanced by high losses of both U.S. submarines and German U-boats.

[Boomer 2019]

Originally Posted by Llarry

Agree. My post was more wondering if there was a place in today's maritime environment for a very large surface combatant.

Yeah. They're called Aircraft carriers. Aircraft, missiles, and subs are the way to go after enemy ships these days.

[Llarry]

Cage masts were a distinguishing feature of U.S. Navy battleships for decades starting in about 1910. Tall masts were required to provide an observation platform for spotting the fall of shells at great distance and to provide supports for the increasingly important radio antennas.

By about 1940, cage masts were gone -- replaced by tripod masts.

Despite the unusual configuration of the gun turrets, I'm unable to identify the ship in this photo using my regular sources. It does not appear to be the USS Arkansas (BB 33), but is an earlier pre-Dreadnought ship.

[M5Rick]

One of two operational UK's Vanguard subs with 28 nukes and a crew of 140 came close to disaster when the main depth gauges gave false readings as it continued to dive to a dangerous depth and only a cursory check by an engineer on a secondary gauge in the rear of the sub alerted the sub commander.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/247874...st-crush-crew/

[billnchristy]

Originally Posted by Llarry

Cage masts were a distinguishing feature of U.S. Navy battleships for decades starting in about 1910. Tall masts were required to provide an observation platform for spotting the fall of shells at great distance and to provide supports for the increasingly important radio antennas.

By about 1940, cage masts were gone -- replaced by tripod masts.

Despite the unusual configuration of the gun turrets, I'm unable to identify the ship in this photo using my regular sources. It does not appear to be the USS Arkansas (BB 33), but is an earlier pre-Dreadnought ship.

I got curious too, I'm thinking it's an armored Cruiser and the Tennessee class come real close but nothing has a gun like that, this one is weird too as it looks like the casemates are gone and there are some more modern looking gun tubs on the side...was this some wackadoo refit to try to keep it relevant going into WWII?

[billnchristy]

I was wrong, google lens'd it and it's BB14, USS Nebraska
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Nebraska_(BB-14)

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by billnchristy

I was wrong, google lens'd it and it's BB14, USS Nebraska
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Nebraska_(BB-14)

Yes, one of the 5 Virginia class battleships. The main 12-inch battery gun turrets with 8-inch guns on top of them were a failure. All decommissioned by 1920.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia-class_battleship

[Llarry]

At the end of World War I, the German fleet surrendered and was moved to Scapa Flow in the UK. In 1919, the German sailors scuttled their ships to prevent their use by the British enemy.

The battleship SMS Prinzregent Luitpold when refloated ended up keel up and was towed in that condition to be broken up for scrap in 1931.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttl..._at_Scapa_Flow

[billnchristy]

You'd think that little building would create a lot of drag when she was upright.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by billnchristy

You'd think that little building would create a lot of drag when she was upright.

And in her current state, you have to wonder what the draft is like: Superstructure, masts, etc. sticking down there. Good luck in shallow water!

[M-technik-3]

Bad day for US Navy yesterday. P-8A in the bay at end of Hickam.

[Llarry]

USS Scamp (SSN 588) on the surface.

The tall mast is a high frequency radio antenna; the lower one is a type 15 periscope, behind which is another I don't recognize. I'm surprised we don't see a small surface search radar antenna since the boat is surfaced.

Scamp was one of the relatively early Skipjack class boats; known for being fast but relatively noisy. She was decommissioned in 1988. Her sister boat the USS Scorpion (SSN 589) was lost with all hands (99 men) in May of 1968.

[Lady Jane]

Originally Posted by Llarry

Her sister boat, the USS Scorpion (SSN 589) was lost with all hands (99 men) in May of 1968.

Interesting read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Scorpion_(SSN-589)

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

Interesting read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Scorpion_(SSN-589)

That Wikipedia article is a very interesting read and I thank you for posting the link. I suppose we will never know the ground truth on Scorpion's loss. The tragedy still greatly strikes a nerve with me -- and likely anyone who had been to sea on a submarine -- 55 years later. In the Spring of 1973 I was scheduled to be part of a team on sister USS Snook (SSN 592) for a very interesting month-long mission, which was cancelled at the last minute when the boat had a maintenance issue of some kind.

Here is a little tribute to the Scorpion, including one of the last photos taken of her before the catastrophe:

(For the diagram, 1 = sonar, 2 = torpedo room, 3 = control room, 4 = S5W nuclear reactor, 5 = not sure -- aux machinery? reactor control?, 6 = engine room)

[Llarry]

The Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force (Navy) has taken a slow but deliberate path to an aircraft carrier capability over the past decade-plus.

The first step was to fund the construction of two "helicopter destroyers": Izumo (DDH 183) and Kaga (DDH 184). These were very large for destroyers and the JMSDF quietly incorporated some provisions for the future operation of V/STOL fixed-wing aircraft (in addition to helicopters) in the design. The ships have operated for some years now and recently the second ship has undergone alterations to further improve the capability to operate F-35B fighters in addition to helicopters. (Japan has ordered 42 F-35B STOVL fighters for their air force as well as conventional F-35A fighters.)

The original design had a fairly narrow flight deck at the bow and had a close-in weapons system offset to one side right at the bow. The new alterations to Kaga have widened the forward flight deck and eliminated that CIWS, further optimizing the ship's capability to operate the F-35B and turning the ship into a de facto light aircraft carrier (CVL).

Two U.S. Marine Corps F-35B fighters have conducted trials with these "destroyers". Now we await the delivery of Japan's own F-35Bs to complete the picture.

I imagine that China looks on with interest and concern. Defense expenditures are also a controversial issue in domestic politics in Japan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izumo-class_destroyer

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Llarry

The Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force (Navy) has taken a slow but deliberate path to an aircraft carrier capability over the past decade-plus.

The JMSDF carriers are emblematic of how Japan has developed a large and high-quality Navy over the past years. Japan's constitution, largely dictated by the Allied victors after World War II, prohibits the maintenance of military forces; thus the name "Self Defense Force" in an effort to get around that prohibition. The Japanese government has gradually come to the conviction that military forces, whatever the name, are necessary in an era of a belligerent China and North Korea, but is moving very slowly given the constitution and considerable public pacifist sentiment.

The two Izumo-class "DDHs" were preceded by two smaller DDHs, which were also quite large but probably not suitable for F-35B fighters.

A particularly important component of the fleet are the AEGIS missile destroyers, which -- like their American counterparts -- have a considerable capability against ballistic missiles.

The old adage holds that a combatant that looks good is good, and the Japanese warships are among the most attractive anywhere.

The JMSDF submarine force is also state-of-the-art, and the latest classes use lithium-ion batteries. Given Japanese sensitivities to nuclear power (Hiroshima, Fukushima #3, etc.) there has been some debates about building nuclear-powered submarines, but so far the sub force is all Diesel-electric. (Note that the Japanese government permits an American nuclear-powered aircraft carrier to be based in Japan and does not object to port visits by nuclear-powered submarines.)

The fleet does not lack auxiliary ships, including modern underway replenishment ships to sustain the combatants at sea. There are also research, training and mine warfare ships. All in all, the JMSDF is a well-balanced professional force.

The JMSDF has a sizeable air arm. P-3C patrol aircraft are being gradually replaced by Japanese-designed and -built Kawasaki P-1 jet patrol aircraft. There are a large number of Japanese license-produced SH-60 ASW helicopters as well as AW101 helicopters. It will be interesting to see whether the F-35Bs on order ultimately end up as JMSDF assets -- ostensibly they have been ordered for the JASDF.

[Llarry]

An excellent selection of photos of navy ships and aircraft is available at https://seaforces.org -- it's become my go-to for ships and aircraft photos as long as it is Navy or Marine Corps. Any nations' navy.