[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by hinckley

As someone who did six EDs and had no intention of stopping, I have to agree with everything you've said here. It's like everyone screaming at the top of their lungs for cool European estate cars/wagons. What happens when a few manufacturers try to import them? They don't sell. At all. Look at Volvo.

I said this earlier and I'll say it again. ED is an incredible experience that BMW got the economics wrong on. Instead of ED cars being discounted (how does that makes sense?), ED should be an extra-cost option like the $2500 M Driver's Package. That way, BMW can make the economics work on the few people who actually do ED instead of just marketing a program that people only dream about.

The problem is it's hard to go from giving discounts to making people pay for the "experience".

[hinckley]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

The problem is it's hard to go from giving discounts to making people pay for the "experience".

I was just about to respond to your post when I saw your response to mine.

I agree that the switch would have been difficult, and they may have to kill the program for a few years only to re-invent it in a way that makes more economic sense. But ask yourself the question - if you never knew of ED discounts and BMW introduced an ED program that cost $1000, would you consider it?

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by F82PRETEND

I totally understand where you're coming from. However, I can say it doesn't always work like this. I ordered my ED from what was then a small, family owned dealer (has since been sold to Autonation) after finding the sales guy on here. They were a straight $500 over ED invoice plus fees and I happily paid it. Ordered the car without driving one at all. Then referred same guy (and dealer) an OG M2 order at $5k over sticker back in late 2016. It's not all bad.

And, of course, it wasn't an M-car, was it?

Dealers can go to the ED well as often as they want for "normal" cars. They don't have to stock them, nor do they come out of a allocation. We're happy to do that anytime. But try the same with an M-car that can't be replaced in inventory and the landscape changes. BMW screwed the pooch on this when they introduced the F10 M5 and gave them away to any dealership for ED with no impact on allocation. No one wanted to buy one from a dealer for US delivery because they could get a much better deal on "extra" cars through ED. That was BMW's fault which they quickly corrected for all later M-cars, after decimating the resale value of the F10 M5 nearly before it was out of the box. So many mistakes, the program really didn't have a chance for longterm survival.

[Luminor513]

Times are Changing indeed. I've had two friends do ED and they both said it was the most amazing experience and would absolutely do it again. It's unfortunate to see this no longer be an option.

[M3Fahrer]

Originally Posted by fanekstudio

Just a crazy idea, can we do a petition/letter to BMW asking them not to do this or give us at least a last chance?

Lets show BMW there are so many of us that are still interested in ED!

Saying now that they will grant it for orders until May 18 is giving no last change considering the current COVID lockdowns.

What about extension until next spring and if NA doesn't show a greater number of 500 orders than they were right to shut it down.

Let just ask for a final small window of opportunity!
Who is in?

Good idea, although I'd petition for a longer window of opportunity. If somebody can start a thread/petition in a general section on Bimmerpost that would be great. It might not do much but it's a start...

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by jvit27

You brought up some very valid points, but I can't tell if your posts are dripping with ego or just sarcasm seasoned with resent. The description of your sales experience is anecdotal because you don't seem to empathize what it's like to be the customer who ISN'T just about saving a few dollars. Many dealerships/salespeople have a glaring lack of product knowledge and are more focused on closing the deal than making you happy. Then there are the cocky ones who try to act like they know more than you, belittle the female customers, or just don't treat you with any respect because you're just a sale to them. It's not a pleasant experience BEFORE they then add you to their databases and toe the line of harassment disguised as 'marketing' and 'follow ups'. And don't even get me started on the incessant fucking surveys.

But I digress... if you have lost so many customers to other dealerships, do you guys ever stop and ask yourselves just how far off are you on pricing?

I agree with your assessment of most dealerships. It is, again, what I call the Wal-Marting of America. The buying public is getting exactly the level of expertise they're willing to pay for. I've not suffered any loss of income over my 40-years selling BMWs but we're talking about European Delivery here, and, what, 500 sales per year for BMW? Most dealerships don't even do it, have no one familiar with it, and just won't be bothered—regardless the model involved. They barely pay a living wage and the average tenure in a sales position at a BMW store is probably around 2-years. I've seen in the store where I work what they'll accept as a new hire to talk to $100,000 BMW buyers. "Oh, you were in therapeutic massage before this? Hired!" "You sold cell phones? Hired."

When they dump a newbie at my desk to show them what they need to know, I tell them to get a different job, mostly because their heart isn't in it. I bought my first BMW in 1971 and I've been president of CCA something like four times during which I was the point-man for justifying the Club loyalty payments to members to BMWNA every year. I devoted most of my life to BMW, because that's what I liked. I'm just like some of you, but I'm just giving you another perspective. I'd stop doing this in a heartbeat if there wasn't some satisfaction in it. The ED part is a minor bump in the road for any dealership. 500 per year is barely one-per-dealership. Why does BMW care? I said if they asked me I could design a program to create the experience without pissing off the dealers or the customer.

Tesla and buying-on-line keeps being brought up. Do you really want to give up the hunter-gatherer negotiations? The dealers don't like it. Some don't mark this shit up. Others do. If customers picked their dealers on service rather than price, you'd be driving change, but don't expect both and then complain when your sales droid has no product knowledge. Most salespeople aren't even paid on BMW AVP money anyway so they have no vested interest when a negotiation goes below invoice. They'll take their minimum commission and move on. They really don't care if they're selling BMWs or Chevies. That's what you get. And then there are others who do. But there won't be for long.

So, bemoan the loss of ED but worry more about the focus of BMW to just stay alive. Worry more about the remaining Quandt family cashing out to the Chinese. Or, like me, surround yourself with the type of BMWs you like best and just say "screw-it" to whatever happens next.

I'm headed out to work now in my E28 535i stick. Carry on. I'll watch the growth of this tempest-in-a-teapot when I get home.

Freude am Fahren!

[WadeM]

This option will definitely be missed, glad I was able to do it a couple times and would have done it again in the future.
Just not sure what they are doing anymore. First a horrible g8X M3/4 grill and now this. Bad move by BMW

[ArchJR]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

It's actually worse from the dealer standpoint than the suppositions posted here—and a loser for many customers, too, from several perspectives.

Interesting to read this all from a dealer's perspective. For my last BMW I had an ED order placed and had to cancel it. After canceling I found a fully optioned car locally and bought it for much less than I would have paid for the lightly optioned ED order. I did a Germany-Netherlands road trip in a rented Audi instead. When a hotel valet scraped the rental car's bumper, my first thought was how angry I would be if that was my new 540i.
Reflecting on the process, you are absolutely correct. I still visited the Welt and still did my road trip in a great car. The only thing I missed was the delivery photo op.

Perhaps if I had visited with you my experience would have been different. The dealers I visited in Florida had zero interest in placing an ED order. They want quick sales out of inventory only, and quoted insane prices to dissuade me from the process. So to me, as much as I like the brand and aspects of its culture, with each successive BMW the process is increasingly transactional. Each time I return to the same dealer, the salesman I purchased from previously is gone anyway. There is nothing about the experience that compels me to be loyal, especially when I email or call around and find huge price discrepancies on similarly priced models.

So I hate to agree, but you are right. The ED program has lost its appeal all around, and for the 500 per year who pursue it, why should BMW bother?

Another side of this after that road trip: driving in Germany is just not as enjoyable as I remember on previous trips.

[*bimmervibe]

Originally Posted by M3Fahrer

Good idea, although I'd petition for a longer window of opportunity. If somebody can start a thread/petition in a general section on Bimmerpost that would be great. It might not do much but it's a start...

Ok I'll start an new thread, I'll post it back here when it's ready!

[IB M]

Is this a BMW Munich decision or BMW NA? Big difference IMO.

Seems BMWNA can be shortsighted at times.

Can other regions do ED? Canada? Asia?

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by hinckley

I was just about to respond to your post when I saw your response to mine.

I agree that the switch would have been difficult, and they may have to kill the program for a few years only to re-invent it in a way that makes more economic sense. But ask yourself the question - if you never knew of ED discounts and BMW introduced an ED program that cost $1000, would you consider it?

Yes. I would still do ED without the 5-7% discount. $1000 for the experience. No problem. What pissed me off was BMW taking away all the normal incentives a customer would get ordering a car for US dealership delivery. I would gladly pay an extra amount as long as normal incentives are allowed into the cost of the lease/purchase.

I skipped ED this go around on my 2020 M4 and went for PCD but it wasn't because of price necessarily although that did play a part. I wanted to take my in-laws and family on a European driving adventure and couldn't do that in an M4. So I rented a manual Lancia Box car and drove 1700 miles throughout Italy last summer.

People say they are leaving the brand and renege on that promise. I won't. This really seals the deal for me.

PS. They aren't going to bring back the program. It's over. BMW doesn't care about the "enthusiastic" arm of its customers any longer.

Edit. My wife just said I should cancel my CCA membership. Done and Done

[hinckley]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

Yes. I would still do ED without the 5-7% discount. $1000 for the experience. No problem. What pissed me off was BMW taking away all the normal incentives a customer would get ordering a car for US dealership delivery. I would gladly pay an extra amount as long as normal incentives are allowed into the cost of the lease/purchase.

That's my only point. Probably for historical reasons, BMW and other manufacturers have the economics upside down for a modern ED program. Let's face it, these trips are expensive and really only appeal to customers with greater disposal income/wealth.

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

PS. They aren't going to bring back the program. It's over.

I don't disagree at all, but never's a long time. Who knows, a new "European Experience" program could be announced in five years as an extra-cost option to the customer and with normal dealer discounts. I can dream I guess.

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

This was an enthusiast brand with great heritage and prestige. Now it's a brand with an identity crisis that makes bland vehicles without soul.

We all see it. There was nothing like going to Munich and picking up a brand new car for an amazing adventure. Nothing. PCD doesn't cut it sorry. Blasting onto SC highways. Please!

This right here. I'll never forget Monday, October 10, 2016. Will always be in the top 10 days of my life. Average people might consider that weird, but many of us here get it.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by hinckley

That's my only point. Probably for historical reasons, BMW and other manufacturers have the economics upside down for a modern ED program. Let's face it, these trips are expensive and really only appeal to customers with greater disposal income/wealth.

I don't disagree at all, but never's a long time. Who knows, a new "European Experience" program could be announced in five years as an extra-cost option to the customer and with normal dealer discounts? I can dream I guess.

I just don't see it happening. Let's be honest here BMW is barely an enthusiast brand at this point. All I see is soccer moms and granny's driving X3 and X5s. I barely see any new 3 series on the road here (probably a good thing as it's hideous) and the occasional 5 series with some giant grille 7er thrown in.

What do they offer that other brands aren't doing better? It used to be driving dynamics but that is long gone. Even the new G8x is really just a rebadged Audi RS car. There are plenty of SUVs that are better looking and drive better then BMWs offerings at the moment.

They needed to set themselves apart from the pack. Instead we get this.

[alavigne]

I too will not be buying another BMW if I can't do ED (and I'm in Canada, where there's no discount for doing ED).

I voiced my sentiment with an immediate message to the relevant BMW customer service email. You remove ED => I'm not doing the M2C purchase that I was planning to do.

Simple. Maybe a cascade of lost sales from enough ppl will make them reconsider. And if not, well, then, I guess they can tell themselves they made the right decision.

...Andrew

[*bimmervibe]

Originally Posted by *bimmervibe

Just a crazy idea, can we do a petition/letter to BMW asking them not to do this or give us at least a last chance?

Lets show BMW there are so many of us that are still interested in ED!

Saying now that they will grant it for orders until May 18 is giving no last change considering the current COVID lockdowns.

What about extension until next spring and if NA doesn't show a greater number of 500 orders than they were right to shut it down.

Let just ask for a final small window of opportunity!
Who is in?

Originally Posted by white2abbit

Let's do it! I'll sign!

Originally Posted by M3Fahrer

Good idea, although I'd petition for a longer window of opportunity. If somebody can start a thread/petition in a general section on Bimmerpost that would be great. It might not do much but it's a start...

Ok, I started a new thread to make a petition to extend the program until end of 2021.

Here it is: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...9#post26140589

Please join!

[ted99]

For my last 3 BMW's, I passed on ED because the lack of incentives and ability to get 8-10% discounts for a local purchase. That, plus not having to wait 8-10 weeks for my car to be delivered, more than offset the $1000 I paid to Sixt for a 2-week BMW rental. Plus, I was able to start my trip where I was going to be traveling. Berlin, Paris and London respectively. So, I will not miss ED. Perhaps it would be different if I were looking for a special car, for which discounts and incentives were sparse.

I agree with the observation that driving in Germany (and Europe, generally) is MUCH less fun. We avoid the Motorways for the secondary roads, where the speed limit is constantly changing. I find myself watching for speed limit changes, rather than the scenery, because of the now-ubiquitous speed cameras. I have been unable to complete ANY European trip in the past three years without at least one citation for missing one of the incessant drops in speed limits from 80 KPH to 50 KPH, many of which seem to occur randomly and for no apparent reason. Sixt takes it's cut for giving my data to the authorities and then I pay up for the fine, which is generally less that Sixt charged. I recently cancelled a 2-week trip to Germany because of the lockdowns. This time it was to Munich, where I had a $800 5-series BMW reservation with Sixt, and would have covered Southwest Germany. We may, or may not ever, reschedule that trip

[hinckley]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

Let's be honest here BMW is barely an enthusiast brand at this point. All I see is soccer moms and granny's driving X3 and X5s. I barely see any new 3 series on the road here (probably a good thing as it's hideous) and the occasional 5 series with some giant grille 7er thrown in.

Unfortunately, in a world where more than 70% of vehicles sold are trucks, SUVs and crossovers, there's no more room for an enthusiast brand. At least not one that can survive. Everyone here is talking about Porsche, but Porsche only survives today because of its SUVs. The Macan (especially) and Cayenne are funding a relative handful of sales of $125k - $200k enthusiasts cars. I just don't see how any other business model can exist in today's marketplace. And even that's tenuous if the passenger and and sports car markets continue their precipitous decline. My god, 20-somethings don't even care about getting a license never mind buying a car. Can you imagine them flipping to the point that they want to spend $100k on a BMW?

[Slalom]

I have done 2 deliveries in Europe. One was at Welt. It was a great experience.

Looking at the BMW Canada website, the option is still there so it is possible that the announcement only impacts BMW in the US which calls itself BMW North America.

Worth asking if you are in Canada. For the time being with travel being restricted it is a moot point.

Looking forward to travelling back to Europe.

[Sassicaia]

Seems odd even if they were "loosing money" in jt. To me it was more of a marketing initiative. The amount of people I've shared my EU trip with is worth a lot. Its brand building and personalized the experience.

Killing this was a big mistake. Glad I did it, and I would have done it again. Another nail in the coffee of what what made BMW great.

[LOW4LYF]

Buying a new car is super annoying anyway!

Who has time for the dealer's bullshit going back and forth like on a Bazar?

Make it more clear and less complicated for the customer similar to Tesla. We are in 2020, who needs dealerships anyway except for parts and maintenance? Most buyer know more about the car as the salesman anyway.

[SabineBimmer]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

It's actually worse from the dealer standpoint than the suppositions posted here—and a loser for many customers, too, from several perspectives.

First, I have been a BMW owner since 1971. I've been heavily involved with BMW CCA for over 40-years and was the founder of one chapter over 30-years ago. Second, I have been employed by our local BMW dealership off-and-on since the 2002 was a model and not just a year. I have a broad perspective, and I love BMWs.

The last Euro Delivery I did for a customer cost him more than if he'd purchased the car stateside and, due to change of company travel, he never even got to drive his new BMW in Germany. Cost more? Well, the dealer incentives such as rebates and loyalty discounts do not apply to Euro Delivery. The customer can't get them and the dealer doesn't get them. That amounts to a lot more than the pitiful discount built into the program.

Next you guys, the BMW buyers, are shopping for your best deal and won't stop until you find some dealer who knows he won't have to ever see you again and will discount the price to cost or below just to add a unit to their sales total. You know people here working for dealership who have become a Euro Delivery mill offering huge discounts including below cost to make their quotas. So when you come into my dealership wanting to test drive my M3 Competition and asking me questions about how the car should be ordered, knowing the whole time you intend to place your order with a broker of a mega dealership, you are wasting my time—as nicely as I will still treat you.

And the dealer, as stated by others, won't get their AVP money to offset discounts. They also have to give up an allocation of the same model in order to place your Euro Delivery order if it is for any M-car of other hard-to-get model. I give up a car to match your $300-below-cost-deal from some desk-jockey in DC and I loose one car I could sell to a local customer who may really want one. You come to me to test-drive a stick-shift M-model no one in the metropolitan area stocks, knowing full well you're gonna order it from the lowest offer. And I would lose another allocation to sell you a car by matching your deal. But I still let you drive it, didn't I? And I treated you the way a BMW buyer wants to be treated, didn't I? And you know who you are!.

So, if the car can be purchased for less under US delivery or even Performance Center Delivery, why not take a trip to Europe, rent a BMW, drive the 'Ring, and not subject your new car to the threat of damage, or the delay of usually 60-days or more between paying for it and having it at home? Is it the photo op you'll miss? With PCD you get to drive BMW's car at the PC track, not yours. They pay for your hotel room and food for two people, and it costs you nothing. You get all your discounts and your travel time and expense is minimal.

Those are the reasons I see the program for US customers dwindling. That's why the dealers don't promote it. That's why the customer pays more for it, and that's why fewer and fewer opt for it every year. It's similar to those who complain about the demise of small businesses and bemoan the Wal-Marting of America, and yet they'll travel cross town to save 50¢ on toilet paper.

I see regular customers coming into our service department who I sold their first M3 to 25-years ago. But now they're having us service the latest M3 they bought from a faceless dealership 2-hours away where they've never been and wouldn't trust to service their car because our store wasn't willing to lose $500 and an M3 allocation to match their internet pricing. And I still smile and shake their hand.

These days we'll tip our stimulus check for a carry-out meal during a pandemic to help restaurant workers getting more in unemployment than they were earning before the pandemic, but we'll still take hours of a salesperson's time knowing we're not buying a car from them.

Good riddance to the program! If BMW wants to know how to do it right and make everyone happy, they can simply ask me. They tell us regularly how the new generation of BMW buyers are more interested in experiences than relationships. Let me provide a big participation trophy for you. Or maybe a program that helps you get the car you want and the Euro Delivery experience without wasting a salesperson's time and without the lopsided distribution that encourages larger impersonal dealerships to blow out inventory we can't even get enough of.

I sold a Hockenheim Silver M2 Competition manual-transmission off the showroom floor to a disabled vet yesterday. We worked with her for hours to make sure we could do what she wanted us to do in terms of trading a new car she was upside-down in, and getting financing that worked. We stayed 2-hours after closing, but when she and her husband left, we knew they'd be loving their first BMW because we treated them the way we'd want to be treated ourselves. And I've been doing it that same way years before I drove home the first E30 M3 the day it arrived at our dealership.

These days most BMW buyers are getting what they deserve, and that's usually the lowest price with the lowest level of service. And then they complain about the dealers. Days like yesterday make me glad I haven't yet chosen to retire. But that doesn't happen enough to keep me in the business much longer.

All the best to all of you who love your BMWs. I'm headed out to the garage to work on the 1600 Cabriolet my wife and I bought on our honeymoon in Europe almost 40-years ago.

Well said. After reading, I've come to have another, more prominent, opinion of this move to shut down the ED program. Thanks!