[Templar]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I am not 100% sure if we agree or we disagree by the way you worded that but...

If u take a look at my example of getting hit and having a stroke and dying... the DA will come down on the offender and charge him with manslaughter unquestionably. The parallel will be made that the hit actually triggered the stroke whether it did or didn't, there have been a few similar cases of this sort.

As a cross example of this scenario, try to remember the Polish guy who was visiting his mom in Canada and was tased, subsequently had a heart attack and died. The issue; he didt understand English and wasnt even sure what the officers were asking him. Granted, that was Canada, but the mentality seems to be the same. What do you think was the response of media in Europe and Poland? hint- it was outrage, somewhat akin to Brown

I think most people here do not have enough of a worldwide view to fully understand some of the issues. I grew up in the South and am a moderete but I visit Europe frequently, speak numerous languages and have lived in various parts of the US. My perspective is rather varied.

I wasn't referring to your example at all, just this incident alone. I agree that if someone struck someone else in the head and that person had a stroke, they would likely be charged with that.

In this case, the fact is that this large individual died by strangulation/suffocation, not by anything else. Earlier someone had mentioned he was not in good health, so maybe there was something else. That would only be the case if no one knew what the medical examiner reported. When that happened, the "not in good health" argument went out the window.

The CAUSE of death was the restriction of air. How it got to that point is the main debate here, and I don't care to get into that because most people here on both sides of this are pretty much already set in their ways and I choose not to add fuel to any fires.

Off topic: FWIW, my dad was a Philly cop and detective for quite a few years. He was transferring a prisoner who decided it would be a good time to try to escape. The guy (who was quite a big dude) wrestled himself loose while cuffed and slammed himself into my dad as hard as he could. My dad fell onto a curb and hit his chestbone pretty hard. Hard enough to dislodge arterial plaque causing a heart attack. He was rushed to the hospital and they immediately performed a bypass. He was dead on the table for a little bit actually. He's lucky he survived. Although I don't know what happened to the guy (I was only 5 when this happened), I am sure he was charged with assaulting a police officer at least. My dad was forced to retire because of this condition, and could never work in law enforcement again for the city.

He was never involved in any incidents like these in this thread. I would consider him one of the "good cops" you all tend to refer to them as. I will tell you though, some of the stories he has told me about what he had to endure are horrendous. Imagine being called into the projects in a major city to investigate a shooting, and when you arrive people living there see you and start throwing 40's filled with piss from their windows at you. Sometimes they threw other, larger things too. He had that happen to him a few times, but did his job and did what he was supposed to do there, investigate...

I don't tell the story to justify any behavior or say that it gives officers the right to do anything they want. I'm just sharing because sometimes you have to look for the good out there and step outside your box, even in a bad situation. I have high hopes and remain optimistic that there are more good cops out there than bad, and won't automatically assume every one I come across is a bad guy.

I would say the same thing applies to the military. People tend to put the military up on this pedestal and feel that they can never do wrong. I will be the first one to tell you in my years of service, I knew a lot of dirtbags in the military. You have to remember, the military, the police force, they are a slice of the total population. Meaning that you will have some good, some bad, just like in the rest of the country. Yes, they should be held to a higher standard because of their career choice. I am glad the military is getting rid of some of the people who have screwed up. It appears the police force should (and probably will) do the same.

[Joekerr]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

What would you have done to "safely" arrest this suspect?

Originally Posted by Sara504

The fucking crocodile hunter (god rest his soul) can man handle and tackle a 2,000 lb wild animal without killing it. You're telling me 5+ grown men can sub do a 350 lb man without killing him when the man is stating he cant breathe? Come on now.

In fairness, you really aren't answering the question. So how would YOU safely arrest this suspect?

[ASAP]

Its a very difficult job and no can disagree with that. There are slimebags and there are good guys, thats why discretion exists. All I am saying is that these types of events are handles much differently around the world than they are in the US... whether thats a valid comparison is kind of like comparing the US healthcare system to the rest of the world... it may not make much sense but I hope it provokes some thorough thinking on everyone's part. No one in Europe would get arrested for selling cigs, speeding and the like... and if we are to arrest someone for selling cigs (since its basically a minor tax violation), then all of wall street should be on death row right now. Thats it for me guys...

[Sara]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

In fairness, you really aren't answering the question. So how would YOU safely arrest this suspect?

I'm sorry. I would I guess the term is "dog pile" (where you put your weight on something to limit movement BUT NOT TO THE POINT WHERE BREATHING CAN BE COMPROMISED TO A FATALITY) 5+ grown men could have done that. It works for an animal with teeth that can rip your arm off, why cant it work for a human? Once sub-do'd however possible, hand cuff. Assist the man up and place him in the squad car.

That is probably easier said than done but the point is it can be done

[Templar]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

Even the medical examiner stated that his health is a contributing factor. It can not be disregarded in this case. A fit man has infinitely higher odds of surviving this arrest, even Sara would have survived. A law abiding man has 100% chance of surviving this arrest.

Well, he was alive up until he was put in the chokehold.

Sorry, but you're reaching on this one... The cause of death is clear. Adding in the man's health is not the argument you should be making. I'm not arguing about what happened up until that point. I'm stating the cause of death.

I don't disagree with the bolded statement, although it is not related to the medical examiners determination at all.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Myrder

This is some sheeple thought process. Society changes all over the world and what is acceptable there is not here and so on. Its about america supposedly being the land of the free where selling single cigarettes is punishable by death/arrest. Where in other countries they do not give a flying F. In Italy, I saw a drunkard spit in a cops face. You know what they did, nothing, they told him to leave and he did. Probably should have been murdered right? The police are human they make mistakes or purposely do things that should be punished.

"Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing"

That's why Italy is a shithole, and where I ran from a 95lb assailant who couldn't punch harder than my retarded 5yr old cousin.. ie. LAWLESS
Apparently you aren't daily reminded of the necessity of policing.. when you see what they have saved you from you will be understand.

[P1]

Originally Posted by Sara504

I'm sorry. I would I guess the term is "dog pile" (where you put your weight on something to limit movement BUT NOT TO THE POINT WHERE BREATHING CAN BE COMPROMISED TO A FATALITY) 5+ grown men could have done that. It works for an animal with teeth that can rip your arm off, why cant it work for a human? Once sub-do'd however possible, hand cuff. Assist the man up and place him in the squad car.

That is probably easier said than done but the point is it can be done

OK, let's put five guys on top of Garner. If the average man weighs 180 pounds, that's 900 pounds of weight. Let's continue. This fella was not in good shape, so he starts being unable to breathe. He says to the first cop "I can't breathe". So the first cop needs to hear this, then tell the second cop, third cop etc. By the time everyone gets the message throughout all the commotion, he would have still probably died from not being able to breathe.

Next idea?

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by Sara504

The fucking crocodile hunter (god rest his soul) can man handle and tackle a 2,000 lb wild animal without killing it. You're telling me 5+ grown men can sub do a 350 lb man without killing him when the man is stating he cant breathe? Come on now.

Jokker has a point.

But to humor you, a crocodile is a fairly predictable animal, a man is not. To correct you, it typically took 7 or 10 men to handle a 2000# crock. And since we're digressing into fantasy analogies, if the crock were a reasonable crock and knew it was go with Steve or be killed by the authorities, it would have likely gone willingly with Steve.

If you can say you can't breath, you can breath. If you REALLY can't breath, you pass out or if it's for a short amount of time that you can't breath, you can't speak. If you watch the video, Garner was speaking and coherent after the choke hold was released. Also, the choke hold started at 40seconds in and was released 53seconds in.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Sara504

I'm sorry. I would I guess the term is "dog pile" (where you put your weight on something to limit movement BUT NOT TO THE POINT WHERE BREATHING CAN BE COMPROMISED TO A FATALITY) 5+ grown men could have done that. It works for an animal with teeth that can rip your arm off, why cant it work for a human? Once sub-do'd however possible, hand cuff. Assist the man up and place him in the squad car.

That is probably easier said than done but the point is it can be done

This ain't kindergarten. There are consequences in the real world if for acting up and no obeying the law. Ain't nobody got the time or patience to wait for you to calm down and play nice.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by Templar

Well, he was alive up until he was put in the chokehold.

Sorry, but you're reaching on this one... The cause of death is clear. Adding in the man's health is not the argument you should be making. I'm not arguing about what happened up until that point. I'm stating the cause of death.

I don't disagree with the bolded statement, although it is not related to the medical examiners determination at all.

He was alive after the choke hold too. I can here him on the video speaking.

Nothing for me to reach for. The ME said his lack of health were contributing factors.

[Myrder]

Originally Posted by grimlock

That's why Italy is a shithole, and where I ran from a 95lb assailant who couldn't punch harder than my retarded 5yr old cousin.. ie. LAWLESS
Apparently you aren't daily reminded of the necessity of policing.. when you see what they have saved you from you will be understand.

You have a case of mouth diarrhea. Please seek medical attention. I'm glad they saved me from this crazy single cigarette selling psychopath. *sarcasm*

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by P1et

OK, let's put five guys on top of Garner. If the average man weighs 180 pounds, that's 900 pounds of weight. Let's continue. This fella was not in good shape, so he starts being unable to breathe. He says to the first cop "I can't breathe". So the first cop needs to hear this, then tell the second cop, third cop etc. By the time everyone gets the message throughout all the commotion, he would have still probably died from not being able to breathe.

Next idea?

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by grimlock

This ain't kindergarten. There are consequences in the real world if for acting up and no obeying the law. Ain't nobody got the time or patience to wait for you to calm down and play nice.

this is really the bottom line. A world that didn't need law enforcement would be lovely. I would really like to not have to worry about anyone doing me any harm, stealing my stuff, raping my wife or daughter.

But that isn't the world we live in.

If you don't want to get your ass beat by the cops, don't break the law, not even the small ones that you don't agree with. Even if you did break the law and don't want to get your ass beat by the cops, don't resist arrest. Get arrested and sue for unlawful arrest, get a nice settlement.

These aren't difficult concepts for rational humans to grasp.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

He was alive after the choke hold too. I can here him on the video speaking.

Nothing for me to reach for. The ME said his lack of health were contributing factors.

Answer me this, if he WASN'T put in a chokehold, would he be dead right now?

And how do you know it's HIM you're "hereing."

[ASAP]

Arguing on the internet is...

well its arguing on the internet.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Myrder

You have a case of mouth diarrhea. Please seek medical attention. I'm glad they saved me from this crazy single cigarette selling psychopath. *sarcasm*

It's ironic he might have been a sociopath and fooled you with his "Police brutality" spiel.. and you think he's a nice guy. lol

[Templar]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Arguing on the internet is...

well its arguing on the internet.

You're right... I don't know why I even bother.

I'm done here as well.

[P1]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Arguing on the internet is...

well its arguing on the internet.

True dat!

[Joekerr]

Originally Posted by Sara504

I'm sorry. I would I guess the term is "dog pile" (where you put your weight on something to limit movement BUT NOT TO THE POINT WHERE BREATHING CAN BE COMPROMISED TO A FATALITY) 5+ grown men could have done that. It works for an animal with teeth that can rip your arm off, why cant it work for a human? Once sub-do'd however possible, hand cuff. Assist the man up and place him in the squad car.

That is probably easier said than done but the point is it can be done

Well, looks like P1et beat me to the point, so I'd echo his words in terms of how this could easily endanger the guy's life...in fact more so than a chokehold - at least a chokehold is just one guy, and one guy's actions can immediately reverse the pressure. Your uh "dog pile" requires a chain of events to happen.

And just to be fair...for this umm "dog pile" to happen, you must first get the suspect on the ground correct? So...how would they get him on the ground...I mean, if he's resisting arrest already, he's probably not going to be overly interested in complying with your request to "Lie down please sir, we'd all like to jump on top of you now".

So...if they tackle him to bring him down, what happens if he hits his wee little head on the way down? That could put him into a coma!

I don't know about this technique....how about another?

Or do you get the point? Its real easy to judge using hindsight. But if you've got another example, by all means, I'd be happy to tear it apart!

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by Templar

Answer me this, if he WASN'T put in a chokehold, would he be dead right now?

And how do you know it's HIM you're "hereing."

Possibly, yes. Maybe due to the men pinning him to the ground.

How do you know it's not him i'm hearing? Why don't you question Sara when she claims he was saying i can't breath? I just though it was something that was agreed upon. Do you have some other details that the rest of us missed that would lead us to believe it's not Garner we're hearing say, "i can't breath" several times?

[Sara]

Originally Posted by P1et

OK, let's put five guys on top of Garner. If the average man weighs 180 pounds, that's 900 pounds of weight. Let's continue. This fella was not in good shape, so he starts being unable to breathe. He says to the first cop "I can't breathe". So the first cop needs to hear this, then tell the second cop, third cop etc. By the time everyone gets the message throughout all the commotion, he would have still probably died from not being able to breathe.

Next idea?

Wrong. The man standing 10 or 15 ft away video taping heard it clear as day. Thats why this video went viral

[Joekerr]

Originally Posted by Sara504

Wrong. The man standing 10 or 15 ft away video taping heard it clear as day. Thats why this video went viral

That individual also probably wasn't overly concerned with the thought that Garner was going to cause him physical harm either and therefore, not being in the commotion, was able to concentrate on all factors.

Have you ever been in a fight? Do you realize that your focus *might* be on a certain matter at hand and other senses dulled?

Not to say the cops couldn't hear him...they may well have. But then, I'm sure every perp says this, so you'd get jaded after a while and it wouldn't mean anything.