[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Truth be told, I'd probably feel the same way. When you're paying BMW money you expect more than just "badge snobbery". If I'm buying a car from the same showroom as where a Chevy Spark is sitting, I'd question the type of customer service I'd get post purchase too.

I think Cadillac is doing the right things, if you want people to view your brand in the same light as BMW, Audi, etc., you need to provide a similar experience, not just with how the car drives, but in how you purchase one too.

You'd expect to pay top dollar for a steak at Delmonico's in NYC wouldn't you? If McDonalds sold that exact same steak, would you be willing to walk into one and pay the same price knowing it was exactly the same steak?

Let's not kid ourselves here. All the luxury treatment you get at a BMW dealer is reflected in the price of the car and the cost of service labor once out of warranty. It's nice to have coffee, and a little cafe', and free shuttle, but that comes with a $150/hour service rate. Cadillac needs to break out from Chevy/Buick so it can offer the "BMW experience" that people who buy Sparks can't afford nor have interest in getting. But to make that a reason not to buy a car that you like seems a bit obtuse. I buy a car for how it drives, not how I get treated by the dealership. Dealerships are dealerships, all trying to squeeze money out of customers come service time, since that is where the real money is made. Making the experience 'fancy', doesn't mean the actual economical treatment your are getting is any more fair be it a Spark, CTS, or M4.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Let's not kid ourselves here. All the luxury treatment you get at a BMW dealer is reflected in the price of the car and the cost of service labor once out of warranty. It's nice to have coffee, and a little cafe', and free shuttle, but that comes with a $150/hour service rate.

Oh it definitely does. My point is, if the price of a comparable Cadillac is the same as that of a BMW then a consumer will have the expectation of the same service. Plus not having to argue to get a loaner is nice, they just give me one regardless of what I bring my car in for.

That said, there's a few standalone Cadillac dealerships in the US, one in my immediate area that's really nice but many Cadillac dealerships are combined with other GM brands which seems to hurt the brand image.

If Cadillac is fine with charging lower prices than their German counterparts then it's a moot point, but that's not their business plan.

[yousefnjr]

My BMW dealer has always treated me like crap and tries to take advantage of me at every opportunity, so I'm not sure what this luxury dealership experience is. Maybe it's just our local one, I don't know, but I avoid that place like the plague.

[KingOfJericho]

My BMW service experience was similar to that of the DMV. I actually think they care more at the Jeep dealership when I bring my wife's car in for service. Audi wasn't really any better.

[fecurtis]

Interesting, I've always received great service from BMW. This older guy at the loaner department loves cars and one time we talked about the 328d Wagon they had available for a loaner (which I took...and thought it was awesome).

A friend of mine purchased a 550i from the same dealership and gets the same level of service, we both know that guy in the loaner department quite well...not because we bring our cars in a lot but he just loves talking cars as do my friend and I. I referred my brother to the same dealership to get his 328i and when we came in (I gave him a ride to the dealer) the GM recognized me and we chit chatted for a bit and she gave me some free swag which was cool.

This is in stark contrast to the service I got at the local Infiniti dealership where for my 15,000 miles service, I scheduled an appointment and requested a loaner. I come in, they said they couldn't give me a loaner and made me sit in the showroom for 4 hours while they performed the 15k mile service.

That was the last time I went to that dealer and just did oil changes and basic maintenance myself.

[KingOfJericho]

Funny you should mention Infiniti. I had a G35 Coupe a while back and they used to pick up and drop off my car from my house (45 min from the dealership) dropping off a complimentary loaner for all service visits. They probably only had 20% of the customer base that my BMW dealer had but I loved the service.

[Lucky13]

Originally Posted by Ezio

Idk at my caddy dealer. They only sell caddys, and only loan ats and cts.

You are flat wrong, there are over 900 Caddy dealers in the US and approximately 600 carry numerous brands with 300+ stand alone.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

Funny you should mention Infiniti. I had a G35 Coupe a while back and they used to pick up and drop off my car from my house (45 min from the dealership) dropping off a complimentary loaner for all service visits. They probably only had 20% of the customer base that my BMW dealer had but I loved the service.

Crazy, just goes to show how individual dealers can be so different.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

You are flat wrong, there are over 900 Caddy dealers in the US and approximately 600 carry numerous brands with 300+ stand alone.

How would that make him flat out wrong? He could live near one of the 300 stand alone dealerships.

I live near one of them, Moore Cadillac is specifically a Cadillac dealership. They used to sell Hummers too I believe.

[tiltmode43]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

How would that make him flat out wrong? He could live near one of the 300 stand alone dealerships.

I live near one of them, Moore Cadillac is specifically a Cadillac dealership. They used to sell Hummers too I believe.

Lol I was thinking the exact same thing.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

You are flat wrong, there are over 900 Caddy dealers in the US and approximately 600 carry numerous brands with 300+ stand alone.

lol

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

While I was disappointed to see the new Cadillac CEO decide to up-scale the prices to stay at levels near the German manufacturers, and decide to move Cadillac's headquarters to New York, where it think the cars will lose their focus on providing a better driving experience, and lose engineering synergy with corporate GM. I think Cadillac needed one more generation of cars priced at 85% of their German counterparts while offering better driving dynamics to gain market share though convincing buyers Cadillac offers better value. One more generation of offering excellent driving cars with a better reliability record and I think Cadillac could have succeeded.

But your comments show exactly what Cadillac is fighting, unsubstantiated bias toward their products and badge snobbery. So you thought the CTS was a good car and almost bought one, but there was a Chevy Spark in the showroom? That comment has nothing to do about how well the CTS is made, nor how well (and better) it drives than a BMW, but only has to do with badge snobbery. If that is your concern for purchasing any car, then Cadillac has missed its mark with you. You really don't care how a car drives, but rather what badge is on the hood. And that's really the issue, BMWs have gotten so shitty because most people want a shit-driving rolling computer that reads their e-mail, and shifts for them while they drive, but with a perceived premium badge on the hood. Cadillac's impetus to attack the Germans (really just BMW) at their game of offering driving dynamics is about 15 years too late.

The BMW 3 and 5 series have become the Cadillacs of yore, but because of Roundel whores only care about the badge on the hood, they pay whatever price for a car that drives no better than a Buick (probably wore now - LOL). And these buyers would know a good-driving car if it fell on their face. And the whole German luxury thing is really BMW and Audi riding the coat tails of Mercedes Benz. Mercedes has always been the luxury manufacturer of Germany, not BMW nor Audi. 15 years ago Audi upped it's game with restyling a front-drive Volkswagen and putting in a real nice interior. BMW has been chasing Lexus ever since the early 90's and has shit all over itself in the process. Reliability (but for rare instances) has not been an attribute of BMW nor Audi, and is still not today. If you are an old turd like me you know these things. In the 1970s and up to the mid-'80s Audi used to build complete pieces of shit. And BMWs offered very little in terms of luxury (but they drove head and shoulders above everything else) until Lexus showed up - with its Toyota reliability reputation right from the get-go.

I don't care about the badge. If I did I wouldn't of set foot in one or considered driving a CTS-V Sport and a C7.

Everything you said above I agree 100%. My point being is if Cadillac charges the same amount of money as a M5, RS7, E63 AMG ... 100k plus its not going to sell. The current crop of vehicles that Cadillac has don't sell, no matter how great they are. An I am not nor did i ever say they aren't reliable or are garbage. I have nothing to say about the dynamics of the ATS/CTS, I have issues with the design, i have issues with the buying experience, dealerships and customer service.

Its going to take GM more than this generation to fix that.

I am fairly certain that BMW will respond within a yr with the next 7-series and the new 5 series and 3 Series LCI.

Bmw has a suspension tuning issue and the steering isn't as great as it used to be. I am going to guess that BMW has fixed the f30 with the LCI with a sprinkle of the m235i goodness.

We have different points of view but I love you all your my car family.

May we

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Truth be told, I'd probably feel the same way. When you're paying BMW money you expect more than just "badge snobbery". If I'm buying a car from the same showroom as where a Chevy Spark is sitting, I'd question the type of customer service I'd get post purchase too.

I think Cadillac is doing the right things, if you want people to view your brand in the same light as BMW, Audi, etc., you need to provide a similar experience, not just with how the car drives, but in how you purchase one too.

You'd expect to pay top dollar for a steak at Delmonico's in NYC wouldn't you? If McDonalds sold that exact same steak, would you be willing to walk into one and pay the same price knowing it was exactly the same steak?

Your a Poet

[Nitrousbird]

I'd much rather have the new CTS-V over anything the Germans have at the same or lower price point.

As for Horsepower, the Germans are looking pretty pathetic in comparison:

BMW: M6 and M5, starting at 111k and 93k respectively. 560HP, so on par with the 70k 2nd Gen CTS-V and well below the upcoming model.

Audi: Audi is the big loser in the HP wars, with its best being the R8 V10 Plus, with 550HP @ 173k. Everything else is much lower.

Benz: Well, the 222k (ouch) S65AMG and 215k SL65 AMG roadster each have 621HP, so it's getting close to the upcoming CTS-V. CLS63 AMG at 577HP and 106k. Everything else goes down in HP from there, pretty much 500HP @ lots of money.

I realize horsepower isn't everything, but it's VERY important. Even at equal money, the Germans are still losing big time in that category, with Benz coming the closest at cars over 200k.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by DocWeatherington

I don't care about the badge. If I did I wouldn't of set foot in one or considered driving a CTS-V Sport and a C7.

Everything you said above I agree 100%. My point being is if Cadillac charges the same amount of money as a M5, RS7, E63 AMG ... 100k plus its not going to sell. The current crop of vehicles that Cadillac has don't sell, no matter how great they are. An I am not nor did i ever say they aren't reliable or are garbage. I have nothing to say about the dynamics of the ATS/CTS, I have issues with the design, i have issues with the buying experience, dealerships and customer service.

Its going to take GM more than this generation to fix that.

I am fairly certain that BMW will respond within a yr with the next 7-series and the new 5 series and 3 Series LCI.

Bmw has a suspension tuning issue and the steering isn't as great as it used to be. I am going to guess that BMW has fixed the f30 with the LCI with a sprinkle of the m235i goodness.

We have different points of view but I love you all your my car family.

May we

I'm good, and the beers are on me.

It's all about cars to me. Dealership experiences vary by dealership and by customer and by instance. My local Caddy dealer is great with Hummer service when I've taken mine in for a few instances of insurance work (rodent damage) and a recall, but when I went to try and buy an ATS 2.0T with a manual trans from them a few months later, the rudeness was beyond the pale. The Caddy dealer in Bethesda was great and worked well with me, but I couldn't find the 2014 ATS I really wanted. I'll not delve into manual transmission vs. automatic sales debate. I was looking hard for a good deal too.

I ended up buying a 2008 23,000-mile E86 from CarMax in December. When the E90 is ready to retire, we'll see where Cadillac is in a few years. The Tesla 3 is also in consideration if it ever will actually exist...

I'm not confident BMW is ever going to be back where I think it should be. I think the next gen ATS will grow more BMW-like (er.. old-Cadillac like, er Lexus-like - UGH!) and I'll not like it.

Cheers!

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Nitrousbird

I'd much rather have the new CTS-V over anything the Germans have at the same or lower price point.

As for Horsepower, the Germans are looking pretty pathetic in comparison:

BMW: M6 and M5, starting at 111k and 93k respectively. 560HP, so on par with the 70k 2nd Gen CTS-V and well below the upcoming model.

Audi: Audi is the big loser in the HP wars, with its best being the R8 V10 Plus, with 550HP @ 173k. Everything else is much lower.

Benz: Well, the 222k (ouch) S65AMG and 215k SL65 AMG roadster each have 621HP, so it's getting close to the upcoming CTS-V. CLS63 AMG at 577HP and 106k. Everything else goes down in HP from there, pretty much 500HP @ lots of money.

I realize horsepower isn't everything, but it's VERY important. Even at equal money, the Germans are still losing big time in that category, with Benz coming the closest at cars over 200k.

The reason for this is not engineering, but rather current and upcoming CAFE/Emissions regulations. Large manuafacturers like GM can build high-horsepower cars because they have the economy cars and large foot-print truck sales in their fleet to offset the C7, CTS-V and ATS-V, the Germans do not (yet).

[Nitrousbird]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The reason for this is not engineering, but rather current and upcoming CAFE/Emissions regulations. Large manuafacturers like GM can build high-horsepower cars because they have the economy cars and large foot-print truck sales in their fleet to offset the C7, CTS-V and ATS-V, the Germans do not (yet).

Do you really think that the top end HP cars from the Germans sell enough to make any meaningful impact on their overall CAFE numbers?

Audi has VW and BMW has Mini to help out.

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by Nitrousbird

Do you really think that the top end HP cars from the Germans sell enough to make any meaningful impact on their overall CAFE numbers?

Audi has VW and BMW has Mini to help out.

I agree, but the issue is bigger than that especially for BMW.

If you look at BMW group as a whole vs VW Group and GM.. BMW is f'd in the A just like MB. They don't sell as many cars as VW or GM and the ratio of the spread for CAFE standards is much less.

Reason why z Germans are all going to small turbo charged motors that from an international business case they can meet the many standards around the world.

Cadillac with the 6.2 won't be sold in many places, just as the C7s, Tahoes, F250s, Hellcats, Mustangs are rare outside of North America. The big 3 can do high horsepower, high displacement motors but in a few years that will be a thing of the past.

I bet the 3.6 turbo for GM is dead and will be replaced by a 3 liter turbo in due time. Ford is jumping on the same bang wagon as z Germans. However they still have room for 6.2s, 5.0s but the NA motor at Ford is probably soon to dead and limited production.

China is the biggest car market and look at how many cars are sold with motors above 3 liters.

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The reason for this is not engineering, but rather current and upcoming CAFE/Emissions regulations. Large manuafacturers like GM can build high-horsepower cars because they have the economy cars and large foot-print truck sales in their fleet to offset the C7, CTS-V and ATS-V, the Germans do not (yet).

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'm good, and the beers are on me.

It's all about cars to me. Dealership experiences vary by dealership and by customer and by instance. My local Caddy dealer is great with Hummer service when I've taken mine in for a few instances of insurance work (rodent damage) and a recall, but when I went to try and buy an ATS 2.0T with a manual trans from them a few months later, the rudeness was beyond the pale. The Caddy dealer in Bethesda was great and worked well with me, but I couldn't find the 2014 ATS I really wanted. I'll not delve into manual transmission vs. automatic sales debate. I was looking hard for a good deal too.

I ended up buying a 2008 23,000-mile E86 from CarMax in December. When the E90 is ready to retire, we'll see where Cadillac is in a few years. The Tesla 3 is also in consideration if it ever will actually exist...

I'm not confident BMW is ever going to be back where I think it should be. I think the next gen ATS will grow more BMW-like (er.. old-Cadillac like, er Lexus-like - UGH!) and I'll not like it.

Cheers!

Luckily we have the V's, M's, AMG's, RS to keep us at bay

[Efthreeoh]

You guys need to read more about how the Obama Administration era fuel economy regs work and will impact the industry. They key is light-duty trucks. None of the Germans have them.

[Nitrousbird]

Originally Posted by DocWeatherington

I agree, but the issue is bigger than that especially for BMW.

If you look at BMW group as a whole vs VW Group and GM.. BMW is f'd in the A just like MB. They don't sell as many cars as VW or GM and the ratio of the spread for CAFE standards is much less.

What kills your argument is Benz has the highest HP choices of the 3 and doesn't have a Mini or VW to fall back on. Audi also has the biggest manufacturer to back up on yet makes the least HP of the group...

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The reason for this is not engineering, but rather current and upcoming CAFE/Emissions regulations. Large manuafacturers like GM can build high-horsepower cars because they have the economy cars and large foot-print truck sales in their fleet to offset the C7, CTS-V and ATS-V, the Germans do not (yet).

lol no
it's simply because the EU emission requirements are higher than the U.S.