[Iron Man]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

Nah. E60 M5 wasn't a comparison favorite. Everyone loved it, but it didn't place that well in head to head's with other cars. The LCI W204 C63 had huge improvements made to it and that gained some wins towards its EOL. Yes the M3 had it's fair share of wins but it didn't win every comparison out there. Even with the reviews out right now for the current generation, it's ether been the M3/M4 or C63. Nothing's really changed.

I was thinking more about the E36, E46 and E90 model series, not the M5. Either way, third place is not good at all.

[David70]

Magazine articles do matter to me as it is a group of people that regularly test cars in an environment that I will never be able to drive the car until I own it. If I could spend a week with all three cars, track and instrument tests were available then the magazine would become irrelevant.

On the other hand, these cars are close, my criteria may be different than the magazines, and they don't show what you can actually buy them for (yes money matters to me) so I would make the final decision myself.

[Lucky13]

Car and Driver just did the same test with the same cars in August and the M3 won. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

[sonystyle02]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

Car and Driver just did the same test with the same cars in August and the M3 won. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

Let me preface this with I'm in the BMW camp as I own a 435i though a test drive of the C63s has me reconsidering upgrading to the M4...

If you look at the C&D article, the Merc lost points in the styling department (which I agree that the sedan is quite muted for a sports car... and that rear ). If you factor that, the scores come out pretty equal. Granted that a lot of these comparos are between the M3 and the C63s - the non-s would've been a fairer comparison.

[hellrotm]

Car and Driver reviews are always f*cked up, including stupid categories like trunk space, rebates/extras, price, rear seat comfort, etc. I honestly hate their reviews, they are pointless. Plus they don't do lap times.

Motor Trend reviews are driver based reviews, with performance metrics in mind. I trust Motor Trend to attain the most reliable performance data.

Motor Trend was the comparison most people were waiting for.

[LaserPower]

Well the problem is that many people just simply don't care how fast a car can corner. Especially for most of those performance sedan buyers. They just want something accelerates hard and cruises comfortably. That's why Tesla Model S is a huge success despite of the lack of grip in general. People who are spending new M3 money in general are not looking at cornering ability as a crucial thing to have. They are more interested in big power, gizmo and luxury. So there you go. BMW aims at it just right in that regard.

[swanson]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

Car and Driver just did the same test with the same cars in August and the M3 won. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

You call that a win? LOL. Read it again.

[swanson]

Originally Posted by LaserPower

Well the problem is that many people just simply don't care how fast a car can corner. Especially for most of those performance sedan buyers. They just want something accelerates hard and cruises comfortably. That's why Tesla Model S is a huge success despite of the lack of grip in general. People who are spending new M3 money in general are not looking at cornering ability as a crucial thing to have. They are more interested in big power, gizmo and luxury. So there you go. BMW aims at it just right in that regard.

BS. BMW fanboys are always crying about how the M3 can out handle anything and always say its not about the power as the M3 has always offered less power then its competition. NOW its about power? lol. How about all those times you hear the fanboys say how the C63 has always been a straight line car, cruiser, muscle car, luxurious?

[rjd598]

i'm pretty shocked the c63 had a whole second faster lap time. almost don't believe that

[aloksatoor]

Hope this is a wake up call to the M division . I wish they followed the porsche model, offload crappy x3/x5/x6s for profit margins (like the cayenne/macan) and use that to build great driver focused cars with less profits.

[infamousdiz]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

Car and Driver just did the same test with the same cars in August and the M3 won. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

was just about to write the same thing.


you can make a caddy as fast as a La Ferrari.......My wife..She anit going to get one, want one, or let me have one (I do like it)

[Fundguy1]

I hope this is a wake up call, but more so to stop pouring so much money into the miniscule electric segment at the cost of loosing their performance edge. Take 1/4 of the research money they poured into the dopey I cars and put it into improved performance of 1,2,3,4,5, and 6 series and they would all be dominant in the reviews and their sales would be dramatically larger. BMW seems intent on imploding on electrics. Mercedes holds the German luxury segment with an iron fist. People choose BMW only because it outperforms the merc. Loose the performance edge, loose the war.

[swanson]

Originally Posted by infamousdiz

was just about to write the same thing.


you can make a caddy as fast as a La Ferrari.......My wife..She anit going to get one, want one, or let me have one (I do like it)

Were you allowed to keep at least one ball though?

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

I hope this is a wake up call, but more so to stop pouring so much money into the miniscule electric segment at the cost of loosing their performance edge. Take 1/4 of the research money they poured into the dopey I cars and put it into improved performance of 1,2,3,4,5, and 6 series and they would all be dominant in the reviews and their sales would be dramatically larger. BMW seems intent on imploding on electrics. Mercedes holds the German luxury segment with an iron fist. People choose BMW only because it outperforms the merc. Loose the performance edge, loose the war.

They won't. They'll be the same. Anyway BMW is still ahead of Lexus, Mercedes and Audi in terms of sales volume.

[BwoodBMW]

If pricing was equal I'd probably debate longer but specced exactly how I want them I can buy an m3 for $16k less right now than I can pick up the c63s (have negotiated deals on both). C63 is an awesome car but no deals to be had right now and I still just like the m more.

[Law]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

I hope this is a wake up call, but more so to stop pouring so much money into the miniscule electric segment at the cost of loosing their performance edge. Take 1/4 of the research money they poured into the dopey I cars and put it into improved performance of 1,2,3,4,5, and 6 series and they would all be dominant in the reviews and their sales would be dramatically larger. BMW seems intent on imploding on electrics. Mercedes holds the German luxury segment with an iron fist. People choose BMW only because it outperforms the merc. Loose the performance edge, loose the war.

Truth in bold. And this is before we venture into the topic of motorsports, where BMW has been falling behind.
I wouldn't use the word "outperform" but we all remember there was a once a time when BMW was the only driver's car out of the Big 3 German luxury marques. And it was a position BMW held unchallenged until recently.

Everyday people enjoyed driving BMW because of this unexplainable feel.
Enthusiasts understood that this feel stemmed from a combination of RWD, 50/50 weight distribution, linear engines, agile steering & suspension, and manual transmissions. They enjoyed driving the Bavarian machines and its motorsport heritage.
Driving performance and BMW were almost synonymous, even if the Bavarians weren't always the quickest, the connected-ness of driver and machine were sub-par to none.

Something happened along the way and BMW enthusiasts argue everyday about it.
At the same time, the community keeps expanding and growing.
Most members here drive a BMW made within the last 10 years, which were some of the most controversial times in BMW history characterized by changes & concepts that are oh-so-deadly to traditional BMW philosophy (Bangle, turbos, AWD M-trucks, EPS, FWD , etc.)

We would ignorant to think that BMW's expansion had no relation to these trends.
By pushing into new market segments and new buyers, BMW itself had to change, for better or worse.

In antiquity the Eastern Roman Empire gradually became Hellenized (Greek) as the area and the people's they incorporated into their realm were mainly of Hellenistic tradition; the Empire became so Greek that in retrospect, Western scholars seldom refer to them as Romans but as Byzantines instead.
It stood for another millennium as a Greco-Roman civilization & was the most powerful force in the Mediterranean before falling to the Muslim Ottoman Turks.

So is what we're witnessing the fall of Rome? Or is it the adoption of a new identity, an evolution? & how long will BMW be able to compete?
I don't know, but BMW surely is doing its best to survive.

So we can only hope that BMW can do so without sacrificing too much of what made them great in the first place.

[infamousdiz]

Originally Posted by swanson

[/B]

Were you allowed to keep at least one ball though?

If your wife was the bread winner (not to mention quite attractive) and allowed for a high standard or living, there would be a little more saluting in your life too.

after 2 kids!!

[WhatsADSM]

Originally Posted by quagmire

Pretty much the C63 AMG won because it has a higher redline and a more macho sounding engine.....

It seriously sounds like the media is trying to find reasons to prevent the ATS-V from winning a comparison.

Nah the ATS-V interior prevents any wins on its own.
I'm curious to see how well the ATS-V sells in reality. If you could get some big rebates on the thing I think it would be a lot better proposition.

[LaserPower]

Originally Posted by swanson

BS. BMW fanboys are always crying about how the M3 can out handle anything and always say its not about the power as the M3 has always offered less power then its competition. NOW its about power? lol. How about all those times you hear the fanboys say how the C63 has always been a straight line car, cruiser, muscle car, luxurious?

Wow dude no need to get jumpy. I don't have any loyalties with any brand. Most of the times people who buy a M3 or a C63 AMG don't really care about the cornering G. It's just that.

[BRBM]

Originally Posted by Law

Truth in bold. And this is before we venture into the topic of motorsports, where BMW has been falling behind.

I wouldn't use the word "outperform" but we all remember there was a once a time when BMW was the only driver's car out of the Big 3 German luxury marques. And it was a position BMW held unchallenged until recently.

Everyday people enjoyed driving BMW because of this unexplainable feel.
Enthusiasts understood that this feel stemmed from a combination of RWD, 50/50 weight distribution, linear engines, agile steering & suspension, and manual transmissions. They enjoyed driving the Bavarian machines and its motorsport heritage.

Driving performance and BMW were almost synonymous, even if the Bavarians weren't always the quickest, the connected-ness of driver and machine were sub-par to none.

Something happened along the way and BMW enthusiasts argue everyday about it.

At the same time, the community keeps expanding and growing.
Most members here drive a BMW made within the last 10 years, which were some of the most controversial times in BMW history characterized by changes & concepts that are oh-so-deadly to traditional BMW philosophy (Bangle, turbos, AWD M-trucks, EPS, FWD , etc.)

We would ignorant to think that BMW's expansion had no relation to these trends.
By pushing into new market segments and new buyers, BMW itself had to change, for better or worse.

In antiquity the Eastern Roman Empire gradually became Hellenized (Greek) as the area and the people's they incorporated into their realm were mainly of Hellenistic tradition; the Empire became so Greek that in retrospect, Western scholars seldom refer to them as Romans but as Byzantines instead.
It stood for another millennium as a Greco-Roman civilization & was the most powerful force in the Mediterranean before falling to the Muslim Ottoman Turks.

So is what we're witnessing the fall of Rome? Or is it the adoption of a new identity, an evolution? & how long will BMW be able to compete?
I don't know, but BMW surely is doing its best to survive.

So we can only hope that BMW can do so without sacrificing too much of what made them great in the first place.

Very well said, as it’s hard to not notice BMW seemingly – with the current 3s/4s – moving more towards……….the mainstream car buyer, shall I say? In other words, more away from strictly Ultimate Driving Machines and towards more of Merc – larger, possibly heavier (think M5), and more of hi-speed autobahn cruiser.

Meanwhile, M-B is trying to get away from “curb weight is largely a engine builder’s problem” by making vehicles less porky, while getting better on the BMW-like driving dynamics. Maybe dialing back some of the AMG horsepower and torque insanity, as well (not really; just tempering it somewhat to achieve more balanced vehicles.)

So, it’s like someone just said about opinions………take your pick. C63’s a monster. But now the Ms have insane AMG-like power outputs with that VASTLY underrated Twin Powered straight-6. Actually makes it get tail-happy in ways they never did before.

So, all in all, meeting somewhere in the middle is not so bad for either manufacturer – in my view, but clearly not to the liking of some hard core Bimmer boys & girls.

But if I have anything to say about it, there will be an M3 or 4 to with the C63 one day before I die.

He gone!