[raysspl]

2021? LOLLL

[FogCityM3]

No wonder those BMW execs left for a Chinese startup. Probably get their ideas quicker to production/market there.

Tesla will take a big, big share of BMW sales.

BMW's Board and C-suite need a regime change!

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by dimabimmer

Would you care to explain how a Bugatti at a price tag of $1.7 million sold at a loss to a company?
Maybe at a loss to a customer, but not the company.

Through math? If it cost $2 billion to develop the Veyron and you sell each one for $1.7mm, you'd need to sell 1,176 Veyrons to break even. This doesn't even include the fixed and variable costs nor does it include overhead (cost of the workers who actually build the car, cost of the facility, etc).

In truth no one really knows if Bugatti loses money on every car it sells, most estimates are calculated by third party analysts, not until you get info from first party analysts (which will likely never happen) we'll never know. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if they lost money on each car sold.

By the way, my previous comment above on tesla selling their cars at a loss and not profit,- is a fact stated by a reputable financial analyst. Tesla is taking hundreds of thousands of dollars of customer's deposits and gambles on eventually making profit with expansion of their product line.

That's not true.

Now if I recall correctly, your "reputable financial analyst" were actually the guys who wrote this:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-te...0QE0DC20150809

So it's actually two people claiming they lose $4,000 on every car sold. These two individuals are actually idiots. The Model S has a profit margin of around 25%, which is fucking INSANE for a car company (average is single digits). So they make money on every Model S, why those two writers are dipshits is how they got to their metric. They took 100% of of their operational cost and spread it evenly amongst all the cars sold.

This is mindnumbingly retarded, because the metric implies that Tesla has an unsustainable business model, which isn't true. Most of their losses and cash burn comes from their aggressive expansion. Factory expansion and what not are extremely expensive but must be done if you're going from building one model car to three. The $4,000 loss per car sold doesn't control for investment spending meant to drive revenue growth in the future. The old adage "you gotta spend money to make money" applies here.

Let's say you want to open your own brick and mortar store to sell bikes. You take a $250,000 loan to get yourself started and open your first store. After one year you had $500,000 in revenue and from that, had $50,000 in profit. However since you borrowed and spent $250,000, you lost $200,000 (for the sake of simplicity, let's ignore amortization and depreciation).

Would I say for every bike you sell you lose money? Nope, but those two retards would.

[Jblack4083]

Originally Posted by dimabimmer

Every Tesla sold today is sold at a loss to the company.

The financials that go into statements like these are much more complex than that. P/L numbers can be affected by factors such as capital expenditure (CapEx) and research and development (R&D). In many cases, the real per vehicle profits are reduced because CapEx and R&D costs are spread out across the number of vehicles sold. Once again its much more complex but in its most basic forms that's what a "loss" per vehicle usually looks like.

2021 does seem overly far out that I would expect BMW is preparing something innovative or disruptive to bring to market. A firm with as many minds as BMW cannot possibly think arriving to the party multiple years late is a good idea... Unless they were possibly waiting to gauge the feasibility of it. Either way, they would need something innovative or disruptive to make it worth it.

Possibly we will see some developments related to the charging infrastructure that will be innovative? Who knows.

[FogCityM3]

Think the issue is the innovators and disrupters left and continue to leave and what is left is an echo-chamber of empty suits and marketing goons that set the tone from the top. I can almost guarantee that nothing groundbreaking or game changing is occurring when key executives leave for a Chinese startup and then the iNext program is announced all of a sudden (glaring admission that beyond the failed i-cars there was nothing to follow). Execs and engineers seek out the companies with the best prospects, they don't leave them.

BMW is not disrupting anything in the automotive world these days. This was not the case before 2007, when BMW made iconic models one after the next, that not only disrupted the automotive industry, it invented new categories!

Originally Posted by Jblack4083

The financials that go into statements like these are much more complex than that. P/L numbers can be affected by factors such as capital expenditure (CapEx) and research and development (R&D). In many cases, the real per vehicle profits are reduced because CapEx and R&D costs are spread out across the number of vehicles sold. Once again its much more complex but in its most basic forms that's what a "loss" per vehicle usually looks like.

2021 does seem overly far out that I would expect BMW is preparing something innovative or disruptive to bring to market. A firm with as many minds as BMW cannot possibly think arriving to the party multiple years late is a good idea... Unless they were possibly waiting to gauge the feasibility of it. Either way, they would need something innovative or disruptive to make it worth it.

Possibly we will see some developments related to the charging infrastructure that will be innovative? Who knows.

[3M TAPE]

Originally Posted by dimabimmer

Every Tesla sold today is sold at a loss to the company.

Not really, they are just re-investing their money into production hence no physical profit but I'm sure they will after a certain period.

[yousefnjr]

I agree the timing is funny. They really must be changing direction (i.e. scrambling to compete with Tesla) abruptly to come out all of a sudden and say "Hey guys, get ready to be blown away... in 5 years"

Time to go find me an i3 lease for pennies!

[Mantii]

My question is, what happens to the M brand? As someone already mentioned, this was and is the flagship of BMW and what truly put them on the map years ago. iNext? I already have a tablet

[scoobysaurus]

Sounds nice and all but the name couldn't possibly be any cheesier. iNext? Seriously? Oh well at least it will bode well for its upcoming stablemate X-Cite. Cheesiness overdose. IMO 10 series or i9 or whatever sounds a lot more intuitive than iNext..

[Ganxxta]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The iNext will take its inspiration from the original ideas laid out within the 2009 Vision EfficientDynamics Concept car by being a full four seater.
It will showcase cutting edge Technology as well as design and continue the BMWi philosophy.
It will be shown in conceptual form soon and eventually progress to pre-production concept before arriving as a production car.

It will be ... too late in 2021.

The question will be more if it will be still "cutting edge technology" in 2021.

From my current point of view Tesla will have a whole fleet of cars by then.

Thats just speaking from an investors point of view, here in Germany there is still no infrastructure for EVs. So personally I won't be buying any EVs even in 2021.

[adc]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

I think hydrogen will be the next step after electrification. After all, electric cars still increase emissions, just not tailpipe emissions. It's better to burn hydrogen than electricity produced in ways that cause pollution.

As others have pointed out, where do you get your hydrogen from? You can't pull it out of the ground like you do with oil, hydrogen doesn't live there.

And secondly, fuel cell cars don't "burn" hydrogen, they combine it with oxygen from the air and produce water and electricity. If you burn hydrogen (rapid oxidation) you end up with water and heat.



Hydrogen is a dead end IMO. There is just no enthusiasm for it in the real world. Once Tesla gets their manufacturing online, they will flood the market with good, practical, EV cars. All the other companies will try to rush in, some will succeed and some will not. But since there will be so little differentiation in EV capabilities compared to combustion engines - an electric motor is just like any other electric motor, not so with combustion engines - I think BMW will be in trouble. Not the best handling, not the fastest, not the prettiest - what will be their USP??

[Kevinl]

Tesla is the only company that wants to build an electric car everybody else does it to keep the govt happy the i3 is beyond awful

Do you think electric cars are going to catch on by being 10 times uglier than anything else on the road the model s is a very attractive looking car nobody would say the same for a i3 ,leaf

[georgere]

Originally Posted by Ganxxta

It will be ... too late in 2021.

The question will be more if it will be still "cutting edge technology" in 2021.

From my current point of view Tesla will have a whole fleet of cars by then.

Thats just speaking from an investors point of view, here in Germany there is still no infrastructure for EVs. So personally I won't be buying any EVs even in 2021.

There is no real infra in USA either. However I see quite a few tesla cars in my area. A body of mine moved to Cali and got a Volt. Over there the Infra is much better for EV ( in cities probably). Anyway, most of us will retire or die by the time EVs take over.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Kevinl

Tesla is the only company that wants to build an electric car everybody else does it to keep the govt happy the i3 is beyond awful

Do you think electric cars are going to catch on by being 10 times uglier than anything else on the road the model s is a very attractive looking car nobody would say the same for a i3 ,leaf

Beauty is subjective. I find the i3 not offensive or even cute in an utilitarian kind of way. That's not what stopped me from taking the $150 per month lease from my dealer, it's the limited range. It simply doesn't work for my needs and lifestyle.

[Ganxxta]

Originally Posted by adc

But since there will be so little differentiation in EV capabilities compared to combustion engines - an electric motor is just like any other electric motor, not so with combustion engines - I think BMW will be in trouble. Not the best handling, not the fastest, not the prettiest - what will be their USP??

Agree on that, I already see that with normal cars, the technology has now advanced so far that there is already not much differentiation on regular cars (M, AMG etc. excluded).

The engines are more or less equally powerful (in the same model range), most car companies now have nice interiors, infotainment and assist systems.

Its already starting to be all about design and price.
With EVs it will be even worse.

Nowadays for nice sound there is AMG, for handling Porsche, Comfort: S-Class, bang-for-the-buck: GTR and so on.

Unfortunately BMW is slowly loosing their unique selling points like rear wheel drive (Active Tourer ), "Ultimate Driving Machine" >

The "M" in BMW that was standing for Motor does now also not say much, only downsized 4 Cylinders and even 3 Cylinders are not "cutting edge technology".
In terms of engines it seems like Mercedes are now starting to overtake BMW unfortunately.


But yeah if for the EVs only the design will the the most prominent selling point then BMW will have a problem judging by the i3. Why do EVs have to be so ugly?
In my opinion Tesla made the right choice to make the Model S look like a real car instead of a green econobox.

[DieGrüneHölle]

BMW’s decision to allow eight years to pass since rolling out the i3 follows sluggish sales for the 160 kilometer-range vehicle, which failed to excite customers in the way Tesla’s electric Model 3 sedan has done.

Oh snap...

[Agni]

Originally Posted by dimabimmer

Every Tesla sold today is sold at a loss to the company.

That was their plan all along. They have enough funding runway to get them to the Model 3 and beyond. Perhaps you should read Venture Capital 101. They have massive and I mean massive R&D spend for the new Model 3 and Gigafactory ramp up, which is why they are reporting loss after loss every quarter.

Once they have the Gigafactory and can make batteries MUCH cheaper than anyone else...well GG to all the other automakers. Once Model 3 production is is in full swing...probably around 2020/2021, they will have two trump cards: Gigafactory + Supercharger. That is something no other manufacturer can match.

But hopefully BMW gives a fitting response in 2021, which is probably when Tesla will fully ramp up Model 3 production/fix all production issues.

Besides do you want to bet against a guy that can launch/land rockets much cheaper than anyone else and is turning the Space industry upside down?

[R N M]

BMW should focus its R&D on producing the Ultimate Driving Machine again for people that want sport luxury cars that can be daily driven without compromises and can also hold their own at the track.

Porsche is having crazy success with this philosophy.
Once they bring a 3series fighter - it may as well be game over.....

Who cares about this iCrap?

[Touring]

But what about the i5, when is that one coming out?

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by M4chiavellif82

Fuzzy numbers.
Every Tesla sold at a loss.
every Bugatti is sold at a loss.
every Maybach is sold at a loss.

how do companies exist? I must suck at math or business.

Liquor in the front, poker in the rear.

There is always a front to every story or business.

[ORIGIN M.]

"The Ultimate Self-Driving Machine"

Next /

[jtodd_fl]

Originally Posted by Jblack4083

The financials that go into statements like these are much more complex than that. P/L numbers can be affected by factors such as capital expenditure (CapEx) and research and development (R&D). In many cases, the real per vehicle profits are reduced because CapEx and R&D costs are spread out across the number of vehicles sold. Once again its much more complex but in its most basic forms that's what a "loss" per vehicle usually looks like.

2021 does seem overly far out that I would expect BMW is preparing something innovative or disruptive to bring to market. A firm with as many minds as BMW cannot possibly think arriving to the party multiple years late is a good idea... Unless they were possibly waiting to gauge the feasibility of it. Either way, they would need something innovative or disruptive to make it worth it.

Possibly we will see some developments related to the charging infrastructure that will be innovative? Who knows.

Ugh. What it REALLY means is that there is either 1) not a large enough market, 2) not enough production capacity (physical or capital), 3) not enough operational infrastructure to support making, selling and/or operating enough Teslas to recoup the massive upfront investment costs. Simply put, they cannot currently sell or make enough units to recoup the fixed costs required to build the first ones. My personal belief is that in Tesla's case, the problem is 2 and 3. They could sell enough if they had them. But they would have to change the math. Right now, the government subsidies (all of us) paying the tax benefits to the people buying the $100k+ car because it is electric is a crucial part of their business model. Same with their other units. If Musk didn't have so many friends in government, Tesla would need way more investors with way more patience. The taxpayers have been responsible for a lot of his personal wealth.