[BMW F22]

Originally Posted by Mywifes335

Generally, I'm not sure anyone whom is truly ambitious would ever leave a private sector job for a government job...unless it's in a function like FBI or CIA agent or political, etc.

Absolutely. Hence I am not overly excited about it.

I'd ride this offer out to see where it goes but I'd really analyze your long-term trajectory. There is something to be said for building career equity at a current job that might help your career more than going elsewhere...especially if the TARGET is only 15-20%.

One concern is you framed the "new" company environment as "relaxed". This is not consistent with making more money.

It's more relaxed and less red tape compared to previous job in similar industry. Based on what the manager said when I interviewed with her, there is room for mobility (at least to different functions - not sure about how quickly upward mobility can occur).

If anything, keep looking and see what you find.

One important question: WHY are you fixated on a 15-20% salary increase? I mean, it sounds like your contract gig going FT is pretty imminent, no?

I just thought that number would make the job more attractive. So really just a number that I threw out there for myself. With that said, that number is really so I can see how I can do in that industry and perhaps use that to my advantage. Even if they do offer me what I want, I would have to think long and hard about leaving the current one.

Yes. Spoke with my manager and he said that he had pushed the paperwork through. Just waiting to hear back from HR now. He told me this earlier this week and mentioned that the process does take some time. I haven't heard anything the last few days and will definitely follow up Monday.

There are a few things here that don't quite jive.

I'd only leave a job if I couldn't stand it, if I were about to get fired, or if I were grossly underpaid and there's no future in sight - and I were unable and had been unable to rectify these issues.

Honestly, I don't see a 10-15% salary increase as meaningful unless there's a specific reason. If, say, your current per annum is $100k, a $10k annual increase is only about $580/month more in take home. It's not enough to dramatically change your lifestyle.

You're right on the last point as well. Like I said, it probably isn't enough for me to switch. It's more of a way for me to see how much I'm worth to the new company and thus would like to see their best offer.

[csu87]

Depends on a few things.

1. Did they contact you about a job or did you search for them?
2. Did you tell them what it would take to get you?
3. Are you qualified enough for them to justify it?

I recently switched jobs and went through this situation. They offered me less than I was making and much lower than what i had told them (25% lower). However they contacted me about the job offer and I was more than qualified to justify the higher salary. In the end, they came up to where I was wanting my base pay and bumped up bonus percentages after some back and forth with the owner. After being there a year, I've realized he is just a cheap guy and always low balls everyone in everything he does.

If you aren't needing to switch companies, then none of the questions matter because what do you have to lose?

[BMW F22]

Originally Posted by csu87

Depends on a few things.

1. Did they contact you about a job or did you search for them?
2. Did you tell them what it would take to get you?
3. Are you qualified enough for them to justify it?

If you aren't needing to switch companies, then none of the questions matter because what do you have to lose?

A recruiter reached out to me just before I started my current job. I went to the interview because why not? I did tell the recruiter how much it would take for me to switch (along with the title). Hence I was surprised when they gave me a lower offer than I expected. I'm sure it may just he part of the game. If anything I may be a little bit overqualified.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by ASAP

companies these days are insanely stingy... if they increase your offer 10%, then you are lucky... and thats already pushing it... the exception being that a large part of their revenue depends on you as you are the go to guy or very particularly niche in your skillset... but perhaps i am just talking out of my ass

In five and a half years in the job market I am personally:

First promotion 10k - weak sauce read below had to leave

Lateral move to different company 20k plus small bonus

Promotion to another company 30k plus fatter bonus.

I knew what I was getting into but it's been even more work than I thought and more of my time. So given at the end of the year I will be demanding another raise.

I wish those were ten percent figures lol

I also know companies where ten percent yearly increase is the norm given that you perform well so it depends how much a company is invested into its human capital. If they screw it lowball you they don't give a shit who they hire and chances are you're working alongside other dead beats which means you are probably one of them most likely.

Op don't know if reading correctly but if you get job offers you should also be willing to leave. Getting a better offer just to get a company match isn't that good.

Think about it. New company offers you more. Current company matches. One is offering you more money without even knowing you and one is being reactive. Unless current company exceeds match by way more id leave in a heartbeat. And the next time you'll get a bump is when you do it again. Then it gets old and correct company starts thinking you're greedy at best.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

In five and a half years in the job market I am personally:

First promotion 10k
Lateral move to different company 20k
Promotion to another company 30k plus bonus. I knew what I was getting into but it's been even more work than I thought and more of my time. So given at the end of the year I will be demanding another raise.

I wish those were ten percent figures lol

I also know companies where ten percent yearly increase is the norm given that you perform well so it depends how much a company is invested into its human capital. If they screw it lowball you they don't give a shit who they hire and chances are you're working alongside other dead beats which means you are probably one of them most likely

Lol... I almost can guess everyone's career here...

Everyone is either a software engineer, in some sort of investment banking / wealth management or has something directly to do with the company's sles (revenue)... Maybe' I am crazy, but this is somewhat my guess.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Lol... I almost can guess everyone's career here...

Everyone is either a software engineer, in some sort of investment banking / wealth management or has something directly to do with the company's sles (revenue)... Maybe' I am crazy, but this is somewhat my guess.

I'm just a corporate bean predictor (not bean counter)

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

I'm just a corporate bean predictor (not bean counter)

oh, FP&A


That's good too, especially at a director level.

[Mywifes335]

Originally Posted by BMW F22

You're right on the last point as well. Like I said, it probably isn't enough for me to switch. It's more of a way for me to see how much I'm worth to the new company and thus would like to see their best offer.

You've got your head on right. Honestly, if during an interview the prospective employer doesn't try to entice you with vertical mobility, it'll only be worse when you get there.

I'd just pocket this one and hold out for better opptys. Keep a good dialogue though....it's better to have more contacts on your side.

[John 070]

imho you go with HR or the recruiter. They should know if what you want is within range. Once they want you, imho you can bump it up reasonably, unless you're talking a C level or sr vp where it is wide open.

let's say you're just a lackey and they offered you $160,000. You are reasonable imho to go back with 180, or say you want 4 wks vacation instead of 3. Maybe 200+ is going to yield a no thank you.

[David70]

If you are interested in taking this job but there are salary or other conditions that would need to be met I would decide on what these factors are and then try to get them, if you really won't take the job even if the conditions are met than you are wasting your and their time. The "I need the offer to be 25% higher than what you are offering to take the job" should only be stated if a 25% higher amount would get you to do it. Them meeting your conditions only for you to say no (because you were seeing if they would do it) really just reflects badly on you. Similar to going to a dealer and telling them they have to come down $2k for you to buy the car, they do it and then you say you aren't interested and just wanted to see what you could get the car for.

As for who to negotiate with I would start with who you interviewed with and ask them. If he says it has to be HR then contact them. The person that wants you working for him will try harder to get what you wanted than some HR person trying to fill a position that has really nothing to do with what you will be doing and who's main goal is to fill the the slot with the lowest cost they can get.

[John 070]

ask the Stradman what he would do, he is 26 and drives a Lamborghini

[ASAP]

I've had some really funny experience before...

I've talked to recruiters, they've told me ranges... these ranges never met the offers which were always under, like not even the bottom of the range... then they get me an offer, and they are mad that I am not interested... or better yet, my current company counters and they are mad as well... lol

Point being, based on my experience, sadly in todays world everyone is a scumbag and u have to watch your own back and yours only... because the reality is that no one cares, if the market wasnt hot, you would never even receive a phone call back. My first question w a recruiter or anyone involved, is a salary range, not to waste anyone's time... if the offer comes in below, they are straight up scumbags.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by David70

Similar to going to a dealer and telling them they have to come down $2k for you to buy the car, they do it and then you say you aren't interested and just wanted to see what you could get the car for.

That's perfectly ok when buying a car, because if they came down 2k, you know they could come down more. you go to another dealer and get even more off. You want to reach the point where they figuratively throw you out of the dealership head first.

Not so with a job. With a job you have a reputation and integrity. They may have a need in the future where say they are willing to pay you 250k, because the job description is different.

When you already have a good job, you need to find the right one to make a move, otherwise, stay put.

[David70]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I've had some really funny experience before...

I've talked to recruiters, they've told me ranges... these ranges never met the offers which were always under, like not even the bottom of the range... then they get me an offer, and they are mad that I am not interested... or better yet, my current company counters and they are mad as well... lol

Point being, based on my experience, sadly in todays world everyone is a scumbag and u have to watch your own back and yours only... because the reality is that no one cares, if the market wasnt hot, you would never even receive a phone call back. My first question w a recruiter or anyone involved, is a salary range, not to waste anyone's time... if the offer comes in below, they are straight up scumbags.

It's possible the offers that were always under the ranges given by the recruiters means the recruiters are overestimating the amount you can get or the company is trying to get an employee for less than you are willing to take. I don't see this as being a scumbag move by the employer unless you already told them directly that you are only willing to take "$X" (not I told the recruiter and I have no idea what he told the company).

Either way, you not calling them back to tell them you are not taking the job because you need "$X" leaves them with no idea why you aren't interested and perpetuates the problem. All they know is they offered a job to someone and didn't get a call back, which comes with a whole list of reasons why they didn't get a call.

This one time I offered someone less than they wanted for an item they were selling, so what? If the person didn't like the offer they should said it wasn't enough.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by David70

It's possible the offers that were always under the ranges given by the recruiters means the recruiters are overestimating the amount you can get or the company is trying to get an employee for less than you are willing to take. I don't see this as being a scumbag move by the employer unless you already told them directly that you are only willing to take "$X" (not I told the recruiter and I have no idea what he told the company).

Either way, you not calling them back to tell them you are not taking the job because you need "$X" leaves them with no idea why you aren't interested and perpetuates the problem. All they know is they offered a job to someone and didn't get a call back, which comes with a whole list of reasons why they didn't get a call.

This one time I offered someone less than they wanted for an item they were selling, so what? If the person didn't like the offer they should said it wasn't enough.

Oh i have always mentioned the issue... i was always 100% clear... and let me be direct... this has happened w internal recruiters for companies (Hr)... thats a serious problem in my book.

[David70]

Originally Posted by John 070

That's perfectly ok when buying a car, because if they came down 2k, you know they could come down more. you go to another dealer and get even more off. You want to reach the point where they figuratively throw you out of the dealership head first.

Not so with a job. With a job you have a reputation and integrity. They may have a need in the future where say they are willing to pay you 250k, because the job description is different.

When you already have a good job, you need to find the right one to make a move, otherwise, stay put.

Once you realize the job isn't for you and you won't take it regardless of what they offer (reasonably offer, not you would take it for double what they are offering) continuing to negotiate with them doesn't say much for your "reputation and integrity".

[jtodd_fl]

Originally Posted by David70

Once you realize the job isn't for you and you won't take it regardless of what they offer (reasonably offer, not you would take it for double what they are offering) continuing to negotiate with them doesn't say much for your "reputation and integrity".

Whoa... David70 and John070... (just sayin'. Carry on.)

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

I'm just a corporate bean predictor (not bean counter)

Ah now I know what to call my job now.

FP&A fo' lyfe

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Ah now I know what to call my job now.

FP&A fo' lyfe

always gotta differentiate between the record keepers and the future record fudgers lol

[jtodd_fl]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

always gotta differentiate between the record keepers and the future record fudgers lol

When it comes to cooking the books, FP&A makes up the recipe and the bean counters reheat the leftovers.

Or, to put it another way, one spins the future, the other spins the past.

I won't say "lie". In my experience they don't lie - mostly cuz that results in jail.

[MChat]

Originally Posted by PoorLurker

Then again, I heard in the white collar world, it's not uncommon for people "having" to leave companies every X amount of years in order to get what they are valued in terms of salary.

I have often seen companies continue to pay new hires more and more as time progresses outweighing the raises that have been given to the loyal employees.

Maybe I am just an old crabby cynic though

Truth. Be loyal to one company and be lucky to get a yearly raise higher than the current inflation rate. Move to another company and get a huge increase in pay. My first real programming job I stayed with the company a little over 5 years; received two "title only" promotions (increase in responsibility with no increase in pay). After 5 years, I moved to another company (lateral) for a 40% increase in pay. Since then I've moved on every 2 years on average.

Now I do contracting only and make about 30% more than I would as an FTE.

This seems to be normal for the Software Engineering industry.

[csu87]

Originally Posted by MChat

Truth. Be loyal to one company and be lucky to get a yearly raise higher than the current inflation rate. Move to another company and get a huge increase in pay. My first real programming job I stayed with the company a little over 5 years; received two "title only" promotions (increase in responsibility with no increase in pay). After 5 years, I moved to another company (lateral) for a 40% increase in pay. Since then I've moved on every 2 years on average.

Now I do contracting only and make about 30% more than I would as an FTE.

This seems to be normal for the Software Engineering industry.

Thats about the norm in every profession. I know that in my experience, it is the best way to get a raise. It's crazy because the cost to hire and train a new employee is most times much more costly than just paying the existing employee more.