[CntryClub007]

I'll take a good transmission over a good engine any day of the week. Obviously, within reason.

It's the sole reason I moved away from a 415RWHP G8 to 290RWHP 320i w/ 2TB Sport Auto Trans Coding. 1/2 the cylinders, 1/3 the displacement. BMW puts a massive smile on my face. Don't get me wrong, the GM LS motor is a monster, but the transmission in that thing was so sloppy. I must have tried 5-6 tuning profiles and could never get it right.

A bad transmission will destroy the driving experience IMO. I love these ZF's, excited to learn more about them in the video. Thanks for sharing!

[hans007]

Originally Posted by mkizzo

Love this gearbox. Test drive an S4 and decided against it purely because I missed the snappy feel of the ZF8

Originally Posted by mkizzo

Love this gearbox. Test drive an S4 and decided against it purely because I missed the snappy feel of the ZF8

s4 has the zf8

[mkizzo]

Originally Posted by hans007

s4 has the zf8

I'm stunned to find out u are right. Felt completely different. Could that be due to HP55 vs HP70 I'm used to in 335D? Or software mapping with gearbox?

[Big boi m5]

Its good video but let's critique and study this a little further.

1. BMW just made its biggest transmission purchase in history
2. BMW racecars all use sequential transmissions
3. DCT hasn't been developed for over 500 hp
4. BMW tells shareholders every car in the line up can be hybridized
5. BMW must make efficient cars due to regulations

Here's the picture if you haven't deduced it already. It's cheap to buy in bulk. Using on transmission on every car in the line up means you can make a big bill order and reduce costs.

2. BMWs SMG broke a lot but it is still the fastest shift time they have sold and with a modern cpu attached and a reliable pump it would be the best performance transmission. It wouldn't be the smoothest but I'm assuming we are here because we want performance. Hydraulic pump and dog clutch sequentials are still the transmission of Porsche BMW and every other race car. 20 years of development to improve SMGs for street use would have been expensive and have limited application (M cars) but it would be much better than ZF8.

3. DCT likewise hasn't been used in racing for a while but it's smoother than SMG and nearly as fast which makes it a good option for street cars. However, development of a new one for modern HP and torque is expensive with limited application.

4. ZF8 has the ability to remove the slush box and apply an electric motor. Again one transmission can be used on every vehicle in BMWs line up hybrid or ICE.

5. ZF8 has a nice highway gear and 6% efficiency boost over the ZF6 so they can report reduced emissions.

6. No manual transmission is rated for 500 hp and BMW isn't spending money to develop a new one, opting instead to reduce HP on the next M3 if manual is chosen.

Essentially BMW has opted to end the traditional use of Motorsport tech in street cars and just said ZF8 is good enough. It's pretty good sure but it's also pretty soulless. Slamming gears in the SMGs highest setting is fun and satisfying. Same with the DCT. I don't even need to mention a stick.

ZF8 is a soulless mass produced commuter transmission and BMW is cutting big costs ( and still raising prices!) by putting it in the M5 and soon the rest of its line up.

There is no question the 3 transmissions I listed above are/could be better than ZF8 at spirited driving. BMW has decided that 'fun' is not profitable and won't be developing any more Motorsport tech for street use.

Everyone should bitch at BMW about this. That's the whole point of the M brand. BMW wants to just make money off of the name without giving it any meaning.

The next step is a FWD 3 series to cut costs too.

This is IMO unacceptable. BMW has never made more money than last year and they can afford to race, develop a manual transmission or whatever they want.

They just want to save money. If they don't change buy BMW stock not cars.

[schland]

The content is good but this dude's whiney voice makes it hard to watch.

[CntryClub007]

Originally Posted by SleepingBMW

Its good video but let's critique and study this a little further.

1. BMW just made its biggest transmission purchase in history
2. BMW racecars all use sequential transmissions
3. DCT hasn't been developed for over 500 hp
4. BMW tells shareholders every car in the line up can be hybridized
5. BMW must make efficient cars due to regulations

Here's the picture if you haven't deduced it already. It's cheap to buy in bulk. Using on transmission on every car in the line up means you can make a big bill order and reduce costs.

2. BMWs SMG broke a lot but it is still the fastest shift time they have sold and with a modern cpu attached and a reliable pump it would be the best performance transmission. It wouldn't be the smoothest but I'm assuming we are here because we want performance. Hydraulic pump and dog clutch sequentials are still the transmission of Porsche BMW and every other race car. 20 years of development to improve SMGs for street use would have been expensive and have limited application (M cars) but it would be much better than ZF8.

3. DCT likewise hasn't been used in racing for a while but it's smoother than SMG and nearly as fast which makes it a good option for street cars. However, development of a new one for modern HP and torque is expensive with limited application.

4. ZF8 has the ability to remove the slush box and apply an electric motor. Again one transmission can be used on every vehicle in BMWs line up hybrid or ICE.

5. ZF8 has a nice highway gear and 6% efficiency boost over the ZF6 so they can report reduced emissions.

6. No manual transmission is rated for 500 hp and BMW isn't spending money to develop a new one, opting instead to reduce HP on the next M3 if manual is chosen.

Essentially BMW has opted to end the traditional use of Motorsport tech in street cars and just said ZF8 is good enough. It's pretty good sure but it's also pretty soulless. Slamming gears in the SMGs highest setting is fun and satisfying. Same with the DCT. I don't even need to mention a stick.

ZF8 is a soulless mass produced commuter transmission and BMW is cutting big costs ( and still raising prices!) by putting it in the M5 and soon the rest of its line up.

There is no question the 3 transmissions I listed above are/could be better than ZF8 at spirited driving. BMW has decided that 'fun' is not profitable and won't be developing any more Motorsport tech for street use.

Everyone should bitch at BMW about this. That's the whole point of the M brand. BMW wants to just make money off of the name without giving it any meaning.

The next step is a FWD 3 series to cut costs too.

This is IMO unacceptable. BMW has never made more money than last year and they can afford to race, develop a manual transmission or whatever they want.

They just want to save money. If they don't change buy BMW stock not cars.

Definitely a very thoughtful and laid out response. I agree and I don't agree.

Here is my main thing, competition. It is really increasing, Tesla is making a strong push, I almost feel like BMW had to do this to make a good product on the street. On a mechanical engineering level, while the same base transmission can be used, a lot of differences exist between vehicle platforms (linkages, tuning, placement etc...). Hopefully, by leveraging a common design, more thought can be put into other engineering areas in the vehicle. For example, greater focus on the ///M trans!

However, here is where I totally agree. ///M. That needs to be something special or even marketed in a way that the technology backs it up with performance. SMG was boss.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the new M3/M4.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

The ZF8 is phenomenal for sure. And for the money can't be beat IMHO. But the reviewer who is comparing to dual clutch transmissions has seemingly never driven a Porsche PDK or else he would be drawing different conclusions particularly about smoothness and efficiency. I'm excluding the PDK-S on the GT variant 911's as they are (like for McLaren and other high end supercars) optimized for the track not daily drivability.

Porsche PDK is also supplied by ZF, although it's supposedly a joint development and ZF can't sell it to anyone else.

[Big boi m5]

Originally Posted by CntryClub007

Definitely a very thoughtful and laid out response. I agree and I don't agree.

Here is my main thing, competition. It is really increasing, Tesla is making a strong push, I almost feel like BMW had to do this to make a good product on the street. On a mechanical engineering level, while the same base transmission can be used, a lot of differences exist vehicle platform to vehicle platform (linkages, tuning, placement etc...). Hopefully be leveraging a common design, more thought can be put into other engineering areas in the vehicle. For example, greater focus on the ///M trans!

However, here is where I totally agree. ///M. That needs to be something special or even marketed in a way that the technology backs it up with performance.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the new M3/M4.

Well a ZF8 in a 328i is fine or even a 335i.

It's just the M name is becoming a badge and an upcharge compared to what it was, which used to mean homologated race car.

The e60 M5 got you F1 trans and engine. F80 has the GTE/GTLM engine, and I like it don't get me wrong, but the trans and weight and AWD kind of makes you scratch your head and wonder where's the dogclutch or DCT to complete the package.

Essentially what you are saying is true: BMW has left the niche stage and entered into mass market growth. I've accepted that but it would be nice to see the M brand closer to its origins. Ultimately a modern M5 needs to get the exec on a lease to resign for a new one and he won't if his DCT is shaky at stoplights. He wants a Badge and a comfy ride, and doesn't know what F1 is, so a V10 from an F1 program is meaningless to him. An SMG is a rough and bumpy. ZF8 is smooth and he doesn't think about it. THATS why BMW put it in there. Along with its cheap. Nothing to do with Motorsport applications.

I complain by the modern M cars do share less with production cars than ever before HOWEVER where it counts you're seeing a watered down approach. The M335i and M3 engine are pretty similar, which is fine, but I'm well aware they're doing it to cut costs, not because it's a race engine like the E9x M3 had.

If this trend continues I'm not going to be buying them because at this point a tuned 240i is closer to a race car (240i race at Nurburgring 24h) than any of the M cars and it costs less.

I still like M cars but Ive caught on to the changing winds.

[sev1]

Originally Posted by omasou

If this is what BMW used in my F26--and I think it is--it is absolutely in no way comparable to my M2 DCT. My F26 and F87 have the same engine so that's not a variable in the drivetrain.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with the ZF8 but it's way slower than the DCT. Is it all programming related? No idea.

I haven't driven any DCT's. I will say the ZF8 in my F25 is great for what it is. Its not perfect but its better than any Auto I had driven recently.

After driving the G20 with both B48 and B58, I can say its been greatly improved or has a better tune on it. Way faster shits and imperceptible when it does shift.

[omasou]

Originally Posted by sev1

I haven't driven any DCT's. I will say the ZF8 in my F25 is great for what it is. Its not perfect but its better than any Auto I had driven recently.

After driving the G20 with both B48 and B58, I can say its been greatly improved or has a better tune on it. Way faster shits and imperceptible when it does shift.

I would love that update in my F26. Would make the car perfect for what it is.

[CntryClub007]

Originally Posted by SleepingBMW

Well a ZF8 in a 328i is fine or even a 335i.

It's just the M name is becoming a badge and an upcharge compared to what it was, which used to mean homologated race car.

The e60 M5 got you F1 trans and engine. F80 has the GTE/GTLM engine, and I like it don't get me wrong, but the trans and weight and AWD kind of makes you scratch your head and wonder where's the dogclutch or DCT to complete the package.

Essentially what you are saying is true: BMW has left the niche stage and entered into mass market growth. I've accepted that but it would be nice to see the M brand closer to its origins. Ultimately a modern M5 needs to get the exec on a lease to resign for a new one and he won't if his DCT is shaky at stoplights. He wants a Badge and a comfy ride, and doesn't know what F1 is, so a V10 from an F1 program is meaningless to him. An SMG is a rough and bumpy. ZF8 is smooth and he doesn't think about it. THATS why BMW put it in there. Along with its cheap. Nothing to do with Motorsport applications.

I complain by the modern M cars do share less with production cars than ever before HOWEVER where it counts you're seeing a watered down approach. The M335i and M3 engine are pretty similar, which is fine, but I'm well aware they're doing it to cut costs, not because it's a race engine like the E9x M3 had.

If this trend continues I'm not going to be buying them because at this point a tuned 240i is closer to a race car (240i race at Nurburgring 24h) than any of the M cars and it costs less.

I still like M cars but Ive caught on to the changing winds.

I'd fully agree with what you just said. Worded it well too, wish BMW was reading this.

Looking at the homage of what M cars were in their time, not looking back on an M car being 10 years old today, but back in their prime, they were an absolute breed of special, they were completely different. To your point, literally an F1 engine in the E60, people still stop to watch that car in downtown Chicago.

Even looking at a B58 M340i X-Drive and an F80 M3, toss in a JB4 and methanol on the 340, and you are making some serious power, quite reliably too, why am I spending another $25K for the M?

M-Sport/Performance and ///M are getting very close to each other. When taking a step back, it is a phenomenal marketing effort, but something raw and unadulterated needs to come out of BMW. Call it the ///F for all I care. Maybe this is where they are trying to go with the Competition, CS, GTS etc...

It's also hard when (IMO), BMW is truly making the best product on the road, they don't genuinely need to be better than what they are doing, so why do it? Do they want to play in the land of exotics? The E60 M5 was really a Lambo with 4 doors at the end of the day. They are always cautious in this territory. I wouldn't consider an i8 to be all of that "special" in the world of fascinating vehicles.

[hans007]

Originally Posted by mkizzo

I'm stunned to find out u are right. Felt completely different. Could that be due to HP55 vs HP70 I'm used to in 335D? Or software mapping with gearbox?

i'd guess its just the software. i've never actually driven an s4/s5 but everyone seems to like it.

Honestly the reason I didn't get an s4 over an A4 was I wanted to try a DCT (had the zf8 in my last car, and f30. it was great but the DCT in my A4 I think is still a little more direct feeling DCTs are still like just slightly better enough that you can notice). Audi gave a bunch of excuses as to why the S4 has the zf8 like the dct doesnt support X lb ft of torque but it was definitely a cost issue. the rs5 has the zf8 also.

But the new a6... which has basically the same engine.... has a dct.

[hans007]

Originally Posted by CntryClub007

I'd fully agree with what you just said. Worded it well too, wish BMW was reading this.

Looking at the homage of what M cars were in their time, not looking back on an M car being 10 years old today, but back in their prime, they were an absolute breed of special, they were completely different. To your point, literally an F1 engine in the E60, people still stop to watch that car in downtown Chicago.

Even looking at a B58 M340i X-Drive and an F80 M3, toss in a JB4 and methanol on the 340, and you are making some serious power, quite reliably too, why am I spending another $25K for the M?

M-Sport/Performance and ///M are getting very close to each other. When taking a step back, it is a phenomenal marketing effort, but something raw and unadulterated needs to come out of BMW. Call it the ///F for all I care. Maybe this is where they are trying to go with the Competition, CS, GTS etc...

It's also hard when (IMO), BMW is truly making the best product on the road, they don't genuinely need to be better than what they are doing, so why do it? Do they want to play in the land of exotics? The E60 M5 was really a Lambo with 4 doors at the end of the day. They are always cautious in this territory. I wouldn't consider an i8 to be all of that "special" in the world of fascinating vehicles.

Totally agree with this.

An M car in previous generation gave you more differentiation than it does now. You got a DCT which was more special. You got more hp, a different transmission and suspension. Now they've taken away 1 of the 3 things. And since the m340i , x3 m40i etc are going to have / have 380hp+ the HP difference is there, but it doesn't feel as big a difference too so even that feels less different.

When the f80 came out the 335i made 300hp. So it had 30% more hp at 425hp. Now its 382 and 473 or whatever the x3 m has which I'd assume the G80 will have. Which is 24% more and given tires probably feels even less. the "real M car" difference is growing smaller which makes it less interesting.

[dsocold]

Has the zf8 improved throughout the years in terms of performance and shift speeds? My 2015 640i xdrive doesnt shift nowhere near as fast as the newer zf8's I drove in the 540i and 2019 x5's. Maybe its just the software on the TCU or is there mechanical changes that compliment the newer ZF8's. What bothers me is that my 09 135i with A XHP flashed stage 3 zf6 Shifts so smooth and so much quicker and aggressiver especially given that i only got 40k miles on my newly replaced zf6 Under CPO back in 2015 and I have replaced the fluid on it 2 times already to keep it mint. (i have flashed a few zf6's with xhp stage 3 and none felt compareably close to my 135i in shift speeds, they were literally half as fast as mely 135i) I felt that the 335i i tested out (model year 2014 ZF8) were also pretty quick, quicker than my 6.. maybe its due to the lack of power in the 640 therfore making the shifts feel A bit duller combined with a slightly tamer tcu flash...

[Refined]

Originally Posted by SleepingBMW

Its good video but let's critique and study this a little further.

1. BMW just made its biggest transmission purchase in history
2. BMW racecars all use sequential transmissions
3. DCT hasn't been developed for over 500 hp
4. BMW tells shareholders every car in the line up can be hybridized
5. BMW must make efficient cars due to regulations

Here's the picture if you haven't deduced it already. It's cheap to buy in bulk. Using on transmission on every car in the line up means you can make a big bill order and reduce costs.

2. BMWs SMG broke a lot but it is still the fastest shift time they have sold and with a modern cpu attached and a reliable pump it would be the best performance transmission. It wouldn't be the smoothest but I'm assuming we are here because we want performance. Hydraulic pump and dog clutch sequentials are still the transmission of Porsche BMW and every other race car. 20 years of development to improve SMGs for street use would have been expensive and have limited application (M cars) but it would be much better than ZF8.

3. DCT likewise hasn't been used in racing for a while but it's smoother than SMG and nearly as fast which makes it a good option for street cars. However, development of a new one for modern HP and torque is expensive with limited application.

4. ZF8 has the ability to remove the slush box and apply an electric motor. Again one transmission can be used on every vehicle in BMWs line up hybrid or ICE.

5. ZF8 has a nice highway gear and 6% efficiency boost over the ZF6 so they can report reduced emissions.

6. No manual transmission is rated for 500 hp and BMW isn't spending money to develop a new one, opting instead to reduce HP on the next M3 if manual is chosen.

Essentially BMW has opted to end the traditional use of Motorsport tech in street cars and just said ZF8 is good enough. It's pretty good sure but it's also pretty soulless. Slamming gears in the SMGs highest setting is fun and satisfying. Same with the DCT. I don't even need to mention a stick.

ZF8 is a soulless mass produced commuter transmission and BMW is cutting big costs ( and still raising prices!) by putting it in the M5 and soon the rest of its line up.

There is no question the 3 transmissions I listed above are/could be better than ZF8 at spirited driving. BMW has decided that 'fun' is not profitable and won't be developing any more Motorsport tech for street use.

Everyone should bitch at BMW about this. That's the whole point of the M brand. BMW wants to just make money off of the name without giving it any meaning.

The next step is a FWD 3 series to cut costs too.

This is IMO unacceptable. BMW has never made more money than last year and they can afford to race, develop a manual transmission or whatever they want.

They just want to save money. If they don't change buy BMW stock not cars.

While I agree with your sentiments, I'd just like to point out that DCTs that put out over 500hp have been developed... just not by BMW. See McLaren, Porsche, Ferrari etc.

[OldOne]

Originally Posted by dsocold

Has the zf8 improved throughout the years in terms of performance and shift speeds? My 2015 640i xdrive doesnt shift nowhere near as fast as the newer zf8's I drove in the 540i and 2019 x5's. Maybe its just the software on the TCU or is there mechanical changes that compliment the newer ZF8's. What bothers me is that my 09 135i with A XHP flashed stage 3 zf6 Shifts so smooth and so much quicker and aggressiver especially given that i only got 40k miles on my newly replaced zf6 Under CPO back in 2015 and I have replaced the fluid on it 2 times already to keep it mint. (i have flashed a few zf6's with xhp stage 3 and none felt compareably close to my 135i in shift speeds, they were literally half as fast as mely 135i) I felt that the 335i i tested out (model year 2014 ZF8) were also pretty quick, quicker than my 6.. maybe its due to the lack of power in the 640 therfore making the shifts feel A bit duller combined with a slightly tamer tcu flash...

I've experienced the ZF 8-speed tranny in the '12 328i, '16 340i, and now the '20 M340i.

There was definitely a big change in the speed and aggressiveness of shifts between the '12 328i and the '16 340i. When I first put my 340i in Sport mode, my first impression was exactly like that of the guy in the video: "wow, this thing can be mistaken for a dual clutch"... It really slammed through those gears fast and with authority, whereas the 328i felt like a typical slushbox, really nothing to write home about. Whether the difference was in hardware, software or both, I don't know, but the difference was there.

Now that I switched to the M340i, there's not a lot improvement in shift speed compared to the '16. There's some, especially in Sport+, but not that big of a change. I guess you can't improve on perfection

[Germanauto]

My folks had a pre-LCI E70 with that nasty 6-speed GM-sourced transmission. It was terrible especially going up hills (which were plentiful around where we lived).

They replaced it with an LCI that has the ZF 8 speed and it's magnificent.

[Big boi m5]

Originally Posted by Refined

While I agree with your sentiments, I'd just like to point out that DCTs that put out over 500hp have been developed... just not by BMW. See McLaren, Porsche, Ferrari etc.

True, though BMW doesn't have access to them, the fact they won't do what those other sports car companies did and develop a DCT for modern cars really tells you all you need to know about How bmws execs see the brand over the next five years.

I'd want to see the am division spin off to compete more with Porsche and Ferrari but BMW sees it as slap a few edgey design elements, a tune, and a price hike for printing money.

[Big boi m5]

Originally Posted by CntryClub007

I'd fully agree with what you just said. Worded it well too, wish BMW was reading this.

Looking at the homage of what M cars were in their time, not looking back on an M car being 10 years old today, but back in their prime, they were an absolute breed of special, they were completely different. To your point, literally an F1 engine in the E60, people still stop to watch that car in downtown Chicago.

Even looking at a B58 M340i X-Drive and an F80 M3, toss in a JB4 and methanol on the 340, and you are making some serious power, quite reliably too, why am I spending another $25K for the M?

M-Sport/Performance and ///M are getting very close to each other. When taking a step back, it is a phenomenal marketing effort, but something raw and unadulterated needs to come out of BMW. Call it the ///F for all I care. Maybe this is where they are trying to go with the Competition, CS, GTS etc...

It's also hard when (IMO), BMW is truly making the best product on the road, they don't genuinely need to be better than what they are doing, so why do it? Do they want to play in the land of exotics? The E60 M5 was really a Lambo with 4 doors at the end of the day. They are always cautious in this territory. I wouldn't consider an i8 to be all of that "special" in the world of fascinating vehicles.

Yeah that's probably true. I'm trying to figure out why there are 5 tiers of M cars when before there was one.

The M550i badge is obviously to parallel the Audi S6 to get more people to pay for a bigger engine. IMO the new M240i etc tier is pretty tempting for what you get. Just new springs and a flash and you've got a hell of a car.

But then M3, M3 competition, M3 CS, M3 CSL.

My thought was originally the F10 M5 was a bit underwhelming. It gained 200 lbs over the e60 and 50 hp. The turbo V8 sounded muffled and then they piped it in and it sort of damaged the brand. You talk to non-BMW guys and BMW is the 'engine through the speakers brand'. The competition was sort of a course correction/damage control type of thing giving it the power boost it needed and better suspension.

Then I think somebody decided the M cars should compete with Porsche and the idea Of the 5 tier M car emerged to rival Porsche's Base-S-GTS thing.

Idk. I worry BMW is getting to big and watering down themselves they could end up like Cadillac where they just can't figure it out anymore e

[JMon]

Does the M5 use this box?

[mose121]

Originally Posted by sea_m235i

Once you flash XHP on this thing, it's takes it to a whole new level as well. Obliterates most DCTs I've driven.

BMW uses these things in unmolested form in the M235i/M240i Racing Cup. That should speak a lot to how durable and amazing these transmissions are.

No XHP maps for 330i xDrive

[IllSic_Design]

Originally Posted by JMon

Does the M5 use this box?

Yes