[minn19]

Originally Posted by Reborn_

I'm more dumbfounded that civilians are standing around taking videos rather than getting the hell out of dodge so they can make it home to their families.

^This or getting their families that are in the cars out of there as well. Some did, but I’m surprised more didn’t. But, most have never been in a situation like that so they freeze because they are more scared than they ever thought they could be. Trained cops that have been working for years sometimes freeze when they encounter a very dangerous situation for the first time as well.

I’m with you though. I can’t believe some decided to stick around and take videos. A Millennial thing?

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Prevention of the loss of life should always be priority one. Period. End of story.

Prevention of the loss of life is the goal of stopping the threat. They're intrinsically linked.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

What we saw was law enforcement stopping a threat from continuing a rampage. That's priority one.

We've already seen the stand down approach to law enforcement fail too many times in mass shooting situations alone. That's why law enforcement doesn't wait any longer. They stop the threat ASAP.

You completely ignored my post (also unsurprising) and are way out of your element here. Have a good weekend.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by minn19

You completely ignored my post (also unsurprising) and are way out of your element here. Have a good weekend.

I'm not surprised you're making this personal instead of just discussing the situation maturely.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Prevention of the loss of life is the goal of stopping the threat. They're intrinsically linked.

In theory. De-escallation of a pursuit should have been the priority. Better strategies should have been used to stop the vehicle. Attempting to park a small mini-van to block a commercial vas was feckless in the highest order.

I'm not going to argue about this. This should be a case study because it is a failure in policy, execution, and outcome.

[The Choosey begger]

Originally Posted by TXSTYLE

What in the complete and utter FUCK!?!?!?!?!

I've watched this and other footage several times and I still can't believe WTF I watched.
this is some of the most Horrific Disregard for human life by Police EVER!!!

This reminded me of that shootout in the movie Sicario!

Since when do or can Police use innocent bystanders inside of their vehicles as shields in a high powered shootout? When can Police disregard a innocent hostage?

The implications of this incident are tremendous.

Just wooooooow.....

What would have been the best way to stop the bad guys?

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

In theory. De-escallation of a pursuit should have been the priority. Better strategies should have been used to stop the vehicle. Attempting to park a small mini-van to block a commercial vas was feckless in the highest order.

I'm not going to argue about this. This should be a case study because it is a failure in policy, execution, and outcome.

I'll give you the failure of outcome... but I'm personally not convinced it is a failure of policy or execution. Law enforcement's entire reason for being there is to stop the threat. We often use guns to accomplish this.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

I'm not surprised you're making this personal instead of just discussing the situation maturely.

As usual you play the victim. We all don’t know everything and this is one area it is clear you don’t know what you are taking about. It isn’t personal just an obvious observation.

Here, I’ll help you. Bose speakers are the greatest speakers ever made in the history of speakers. See how this works?

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

I'll give you the failure of outcome... but I'm personally not convinced it is a failure of policy or execution. Law enforcement's entire reason for being there is to stop the threat. We often use guns to accomplish this.

https://stopstick.com

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by minn19

As usual you play the victim. We all don't know everything and this is one area it is clear you don't know what you are taking about. It isn't personal just an obvious observation.

Here, I'll help you. Bose speakers are the greatest speakers ever made in the history of speakers. See how this works?

For the record, I am in NO WAY close to an expert on law enforcement. I'm only a layman discussing the limited knowledge I have of this situation. How about you keep the discussion on topic instead of sending barbs my direction?

[MKSixer]

minn19 and glennQNYC , stop the personal stuff. Let's discuss this rationally. People died in this case and as intelligent people, we should be able to discuss solutions. This isn't politics.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

minn19 and glennQNYC , stop the personal stuff. Let's discuss this rationally. People died in this case and as intelligent people, we should be able to discuss solutions. This isn't politics.

I really wasn’t getting personal. I can’t help he is extremely thin skinned, but I’ll check out and agree.

I definitely feel for the UPS drivers and the innocent bystanders family. It’s never a good time to lose a family member. But, it seems especially worse around the holidays.

[Salty Dog]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

I'll give you the failure of outcome... but I'm personally not convinced it is a failure of policy or execution. Law enforcement's entire reason for being there is to stop the threat. We often use guns to accomplish this.

So clearly things went terribly wrong here. Having been involved in a great many pursuits and high risk situations I will say that you can have policy and procedures and all the training that there is time for and things still rarely go as you'd predict.

The outcome is often dictated by the suspects as policing is generally a reactionary thing, LEO rarely have the luxury of controlling a situation despite what TV and movies would lead us to believe.

What I see here is a situation that involved a hostage which puts the police in a position of having to attempt to effect a rescue either by negotiations or dynamic rescue, and I suspect that drove the pursuit to a certain extent. The officers using civilian vehicles for cover is a response to self preservation and training as when you are taking fire you go to the closest cover.

I'm not making excuses as there will clearly be a very long and detailed investigation of what went very wrong and what went right. There will likely be policy and procedure changes and training that comes out of this.

The one thing I will say is that it's easy to Monday morning quarterback this and I'm just very happy that it wasn't me in that situation and that there wasn't a greater loss of life.

[Salty Dog]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

https://stopstick.com

Stop sticks are great but have a very limited range of applications, and aren't always available. A number of coppers have been killed deploying them (hit by the suspect vehicle or a pursuing police car), like I said in my other post, this is going to be looked at long and hard.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Salty Dog

So clearly things went terribly wrong here. Having been involved in a great many pursuits and high risk situations I will say that you can have policy and procedures and all the training that there is time for and things still rarely go as you'd predict.

The outcome is often dictated by the suspects as policing is generally a reactionary thing, LEO rarely have the luxury of controlling a situation despite what TV and movies would lead us to believe.

What I see here is a situation that involved a hostage which puts the police in a position of having to attempt to effect a rescue either by negotiations or dynamic rescue, and I suspect that drove the pursuit to a certain extent. The officers using civilian vehicles for cover is a response to self preservation and training as when you are taking fire you go to the closest cover.

I'm not making excuses as there will clearly be a very long and detailed investigation of what went very wrong and what went right. There will likely be policy and procedure changes and training that comes out of this.

The one thing I will say is that it's easy to Monday morning quarterback this and I'm just very happy that it wasn't me in that situation and that there wasn't a greater loss of life.

Many thanks for your input. I was about to PM and ask for it anyway so perfect timing.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Salty Dog

Stop sticks are great but have a very limited range of applications, and aren't always available. A number of coppers have been killed deploying them (hit by the suspect vehicle or a pursuing police car), like I said in my other post, this is going to be looked at long and hard.

I'm familiar. They aren't standard kit for every organization. I only offered them as a tool in the toolkits that LEOs have.

[overcoil]

Have they determined who's guns killed the civilians ?

[Salty Dog]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Many thanks for your input. I was about to PM and ask for it anyway so perfect timing.

I've only seen snippets of the pursuit and gunfight. Frighting. I was hesitating whether or not to weigh in as these things always get quite animated. Folks have very strong views on everything LE does.

I've probably been in more than 2 dozen pursuits, some went text book and other turned into demolition derbies. Just about every single one ended with the suspect involved in a collision, often very serious.

Some of the pursuits lasted over an hour and others just seconds. Just about the most unpredictable things you can imagine. The training has gotten much better and so has policy which generally varies from agency to agency but it has been evolving over the years. Some departments use PIT others forbid it, some have stop sticks others do not.

The one thing I can say for sure is nobody knows how it will end, and the police are usually in a very bad position regardless of what they do.

Sorry if that's long winded but I could literally write a book on this topic.

[Salty Dog]

Originally Posted by ScottSinger

Have they determined who's guns killed the civilians ?

That will likely take some time. Depending on the firearms being used ballistics isn't always reliable, so it will likely require forensic reconstruction etc. Hell, the PM's might not even be done for a few days.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Salty Dog

Stop sticks are great but have a very limited range of applications, and aren't always available. A number of coppers have been killed deploying them (hit by the suspect vehicle or a pursuing police car), like I said in my other post, this is going to be looked at long and hard.

A high school acquaintance of mine (also for the department I trained/volunteered for was a part of) was killed deploying stop sticks. The piece of shit that killed him drove into him on purpose in the median of the freeway. I was with one night we deployed sticks in the highway (thankfully at 2 AM) and even with no traffic it was scary as hell.

I am surprised though, I didn’t see them trying to use them in any of the videos. Not saying they didn’t as we obviously haven’t seen the entire pursuit. Also no attempt at a pit maneuver or more robust road blocks etc. Again we haven’t seen the entire pursuit. I’m also guessing coordinating the five (IIRC) different departments that may have different policies/procedures obviously wasn’t easy either.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Many thanks for your input. I was about to PM and ask for it anyway so perfect timing.

I’m curious to Sedan_Clan thoughts here as well.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by minn19

I’m curious to Sedan_Clan thoughts here as well.

Joekerr , as well.