[Artemis]

Update

"EU, Germany Reach Car Emissions Deal That Makes Room for E-Fuels" (March 25, 2023):
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...immermans-says

[G30M]

petrol and diesel still getting killed

[DocWeatherington]

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/03/26/...mbustion-cars/


Shocked no one else saw this...

I would assume all the Germans will do a slight pause on EVs and reassess the values of Ev's.

The cost of EV fuels is the current issue, not the delivery, nor the ability of all cars to run on it.

[G30M]

Petrol still dead in EU

alternative Fuel is not for the masses

Everyone in Germany has disbanded their ICE R&D units - moved them to PHEV and EVs

this news does not change the fact that cars sold in EU beyond 2035 must emit 0.00 CO2

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by g21

Petrol still dead in EU

alternative Fuel is not for the masses

Everyone in Germany has disbanded their ICE R&D units - moved them to PHEV and EVs

this news does not change the fact that cars sold in EU beyond 2035 must emit 0.00 CO2

It will be if everyone gets behind it.

They disbanded based upon the idea that EVs are the only way.

EU globally isn't a large market.

[pshep138]

Originally Posted by g21

Petrol still dead in EU

alternative Fuel is not for the masses

Everyone in Germany has disbanded their ICE R&D units - moved them to PHEV and EVs

this news does not change the fact that cars sold in EU beyond 2035 must emit 0.00 CO2

These cars are carbon neutral. They only emit whatever CO2 is used to produce the fuel, and CO2 is harvested to produce the fuel. Net zero.

I'd imagine if they're serious about going this direction, the regs would be amended?

[G30M]

Originally Posted by pshep138

These cars are carbon neutral. They only emit whatever CO2 is used to produce the fuel, and CO2 is harvested to produce the fuel. Net zero.

I'd imagine if they're serious about going this direction, the regs would be amended?

That's interesting thanks

So they allow emissions based on harvest offset

They should then argue to include the carbon cost of making batteries and charging batteries where applicable for calculations of allowable emissions these ICE engines

Though personally I don't see myself buying these proprietary fuels just to hear engine sound and smell the napalm. Where we live at the edge of the planet it would cost a bomb each time to refuel.

Long live petrol!

[pr0gi]

There is much time until 2035. I assume somewhere around 2030 we will see if they back off from this plan or make adjustments to it. I like the idea of the EVs, but there will be a lot of pressure on the grid to supply the need for electricity. What I don't like is that there are almost no alternatives, or at least at the moment, they are not developed enough for mass use.

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by pr0gi

There is much time until 2035. I assume somewhere around 2030 we will see if they back off from this plan or make adjustments to it. I like the idea of the EVs, but there will be a lot of pressure on the grid to supply the need for electricity. What I don't like is that there are almost no alternatives, or at least at the moment, they are not developed enough for mass use.

90% of the world isn't ready and won't ever be.

No one yet can say how they are going to power all these plants to make electricity. Never mind the push to go all-electric everything.

Only so much solar or wind or hydro ... They need to burn something, go nuclear, or fusion.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by pshep138

These cars are carbon neutral. They only emit whatever CO2 is used to produce the fuel, and CO2 is harvested to produce the fuel. Net zero.

I'd imagine if they're serious about going this direction, the regs would be amended?

Harry of Harrys Garage fame has done a number of videos on E-Fuels. This one is interesting, not his usual drive around Italy in a Ferrari but worth the watch to see the future possibilities. Right now I believe he says he can get E-Fuel for his fleet at about twice the cost of pump gas. I know that's expensive, but hopefully like everything else the price comes down with advancements and adoption.

[pshep138]

re: the price - I'd imagine it'd just about have to.

[pshep138]

[G30M]

i don't see how making billions of gallons of synthetic fuel is going to be carbon neutral lol

probably just using petrol is cleaner than the manufacturing process of this thing!

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by g21

i don't see how making billions of gallons of synthetic fuel is going to be carbon neutral lol

probably just using petrol is cleaner than the manufacturing process of this thing!

It's net zero ...

[TR930]

Originally Posted by DocWeatherington

It's net zero ...

And banks are solvent.

[Germanauto]

I hope this allows certain manufacturers to keep investing R&D into ICE development. BMW M division, Porsche 911, Mercedes AMG, exotic car manufacturers, etc. come to mind. Even the likes of Toyota with its sports cars, Mazda with the Miata, Ford Mustang etc.

For small niche brands it won't make a difference. They don't have the resources to develop both EV and ICE products. They'll roll with EV-only portfolios.

[G30M]

Maybe ICE will be for the rich in the future

Gas stations will have chargers and you can't find E-Fuel pumps perhaps

Still ... most of these EVs are the first ever model and they are pretty good already

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

I hope this allows certain manufacturers to keep investing R&D into ICE development. BMW M division, Porsche 911, Mercedes AMG, exotic car manufacturers, etc. come to mind. Even the likes of Toyota with its sports cars, Mazda with the Miata, Ford Mustang etc.

For small niche brands it won't make a difference. They don't have the resources to develop both EV and ICE products. They'll roll with EV-only portfolios.

Yes and no....


We all have to remember other counties dont have EV structure and won't...

Think 98% of south and central America, Africa, middle east, india, quite a few Asian counties. Parts of the US and Canada, and lastly under development island counties will pass on EVs.

Anything on the road today can run on e-fuels ..they just have to fill the pumps with it at a cost people can afford. That's the biggest issue ...costs but if production ramped up that will come down like anything else. If it goes from $40 dollars to $5 dollars a gallon and doesn't require a 50k ev...people can afford that.

Manufacturer will weigh on this... And be like certain model lines won't change or the platform will be flex.

It won't be niche it will be all of them. If it's netzero carbon emissions a Ram TRX could still exist with 700hp V8.... Or a 1025hp Challenger.

Old motors wouldn't matter as emissions gets recycled.

g21

[G30M]

this is what i don't understand -

the world still needs diesel to run the power grid to charge the EVs. EU head and Presidents still need jet fuel to fly around and defend their countries.

as part of refining for jet fuel and diesel, you will get petrol coming out of your ears ...

hopefully the govt in my country won't ban petrol ...

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by g21

this is what i don't understand -

the world still needs diesel to run the power grid to charge the EVs. EU head and Presidents still need jet fuel to fly around and defend their countries.

as part of refining for jet fuel and diesel, you will get petrol coming out of your ears ...

hopefully the govt in my country won't ban petrol ...

Your in Australia? I doubt it too much open space

[BGM-M3COMP]

This is hilarious. People panicking in fucking 2023 lmaooooo

Wait until we get closer to 2030 and you all will see how serious this transition is. This WILL happen

[chassis]

Originally Posted by DocWeatherington

Yes and no....


We all have to remember other counties dont have EV structure and won't...

Think 98% of south and central America, Africa, middle east, india, quite a few Asian counties. Parts of the US and Canada, and lastly under development island counties will pass on EVs.

Anything on the road today can run on e-fuels ..they just have to fill the pumps with it at a cost people can afford. That's the biggest issue ...costs but if production ramped up that will come down like anything else. If it goes from $40 dollars to $5 dollars a gallon and doesn't require a 50k ev...people can afford that.

Manufacturer will weigh on this... And be like certain model lines won't change or the platform will be flex.

It won't be niche it will be all of them. If it's netzero carbon emissions a Ram TRX could still exist with 700hp V8.... Or a 1025hp Challenger.

Old motors wouldn't matter as emissions gets recycled.

g21

This is correct. The industry forecast for EV and full hybrid vehicles in South America, for example, is nearly nil.