[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by Westside Guy

Both of us liking the looks has nothing to do with sales and profits.

No one but you said anything about sales and profits, and you still appear to be missing the point!

For the last time, it was poking fun at BMW design, that the Z4 is too good looking, thus it must be discontinued because it's inconsistent with their trend towards designs that are (borrowing your words) "horrendous gape-jawed insectoid monstrosity."

[allinon72]

It's a little strange when you think about it...China is attempting to design for the world, while all the entrenched global automakers are trying to cater to the Chinese market. At least design wise.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

How does spying on design actually work? As far as I know, designs are open for everyone to see. Unless you mean copying design in which case it would seem pretty obvious just by looking without spying.

I'm saying this because this China bashing sometimes goes too far and the unfortunate result is more hate crimes against Asians (not from China) continues unabated.

So...hate crimes against Chinese Asians are A-OK? LOL j/k, it's just the way you wrote it.

Murf seems like a cool guy so I bet it's unintentional and inadvertent but for sure those kinds of comments do contribute to the whole 'yellow peril' propaganda. I cringe whenever the word 'China' comes up as it has a good chance of slurring an entire ppl once again. This is not even including outright racists and the stuff they spew out, just nasty, hurtful, insensitive, but, ya, they don't give a crap as they are miserable beings.

I just wanna have fun on a car forum, not read hateful stuff.

[G30M]

this car lapped nurburgring in 6.45 using "bespoke" tires, 5 years ago

i want one

[G30M]

Originally Posted by allinon72

It's a little strange when you think about it...China is attempting to design for the world, while all the entrenched global automakers are trying to cater to the Chinese market. At least design wise.

they hired the best engineers and designers by head hunting them away from the European companies

Kia did it first i think

[Westside Guy]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

No one but you said anything about sales and profits, and you still appear to be missing the point!

For the last time, it was poking fun at BMW design, that the Z4 is too good looking, thus it must be discontinued because it's inconsistent with their trend towards designs that are (borrowing your words) "horrendous gape-jawed insectoid monstrosity."

Those words were written by Jimjamz who started this thread and I merely requoted him.

We are saying the same thing in a different way. Sales and profits have pushed manufacturers like BMW to focus on SUV's and therefore the Z4 which is geared toward a tiny niche market will unfortunately be discontinued in 2025. In the future if BMW should decide to produce another roadster, we both know it would have style, beauty and be extremely sexy looking and follow in their tradition of producing fabulous looking roadsters.

[rabbit1986]

Well I'm not very surprised to be honest.

As a regular visitor of large Motor Shows accross Europe with a press badge, I saw the chinese visiting these shows too.
With their pencils and notebooks. And they were sketching everything they saw: global designs, buttons, stitches of seats ... and we foolish Europeans, just let them go ahead.

Well here we have it. Ten years have gone by and give it another ten years and they have surpassed the whole world. That's how I see it. Sadly

[G30M]

Originally Posted by rabbit1986

Well I'm not very surprised to be honest.

As a regular visitor of large Motor Shows accross Europe with a press badge, I saw the chinese visiting these shows too.
With their pencils and notebooks. And they were sketching everything they saw: global designs, buttons, stitches of seats ... and we foolish Europeans, just let them go ahead.

Well here we have it. Ten years have gone by and give it another ten years and they have surpassed the whole world. That's how I see it. Sadly

nothing stopping Euros copying them

they didn't just take notes they head hunted Euro engineers and designers

i'm sure Euro can head hunt them back to their family and friends

but instead they create weird monsters

i'm liking this competition. German cars are costing silly $

[Vista]

As you know, European cars are no longer officially supplied in our country. Yes, of course, you can bring a new car, I was in a BMW showroom and there are a lot of cars with a mileage of 5 km, for example, but all these cars are without a guarantee.
But the place of European cars of cars was instantly taken by Chinese cars and I never thought I could write this - they are great.
And I am seriously considering purchasing for my wife either an X3 from Germany, for example, around 2019-2020 with mileage, or a similar Chinese car ... but new. And this car - it drives really well and there is generally (!) everything ...

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

How does spying on design actually work? As far as I know, designs are open for everyone to see. Unless you mean copying design in which case it would seem pretty obvious just by looking without spying.

I'm saying this because this China bashing sometimes goes too far and the unfortunate result is more hate crimes against Asians (not from China) continues unabated.

I don’t think I understand what you’re thinking. There is a massive amount that goes into designing any product before anything is made public. Companies go to great lengths to keep their designs from the public eye before they are ready for them to be revealed. Excepting, of course, BMW’s latest dashboard “designs”, in which case they didn’t bother to expend any effort on any actual design. They just got a huge iPad and a bottle of glue.

I have a friend who is an automotive engineer and for a while he was working on an electric vehicle design in China for a non-Chinese company and he reported to me the Chinese were relentless in try to steal the design work. He left that project with a very low opinion of the way Chinese business operates.

[wtwo3]

I think OP is confusing "Chinese-owned" with Chinese made. MG and Lotus are still very much British carmakers who just happen to be currently owned by Chinese multinationals. The designs are still British. And British carmakers have ALWAYS been known for beautiful design (Aston Martin, McLaren, Jaguar, etc).

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I think OP is confusing "Chinese-owned" with Chinese made. MG and Lotus are still very much British carmakers who just happen to be currently owned by Chinese multinationals. The designs are still British. And British carmakers have ALWAYS been known for beautiful design (Aston Martin, McLaren, Jaguar, etc).

Key car designs are signed off by the boards of these companies. Design accountability is not something delegated to designers.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

Design accountability is not something delegated to designers.

......but design is

Are we now also calling Volvo a Chinese designed car? I guess Jaguars and Land Rovers are very Indian in their design philosophy.

[Ugly Kar]

I find it interesting that those who seem to like the new design direction at BMW always have to provide a subtle insult to those that don’t by saying it’s old men yelling at clouds. Next it will be another narrative such as the people that don’t like the new BMW design language don’t like smart phones and think ChatGPT will destroy the world. It’s always some subtle insult about age or intelligence.

I suppose there could be some correlation with like/dislike of the new BMW designs and age, but I have yet to see any studies, much less any data. I also suppose there also could be a correlation in age between those who like great artists such as Rembrant, Renoir, DaVince, Michelangelo and those who like trash from Diebenkorn and Cattelan, but I’m not sure. I did read one study that said Millennials like fine art more than Baby Boomers.

One thing I do know is what automotive journalists think of the new BMW design language. Every article I’ve read reads like this:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news...ng/ar-AA1bgnmC

And don’t even get me started on the, “BMW is selling every car they make”. So is every other car company, and the wait on some KIA’s in longer than the wait on most BMW’s and they have greater dealer markups.

The one question I keep asking the people who like the new BMW design language will never answer is, “Why does a design have to be hideous to be new, modern, contemporary, futuristic and state of the art”?? Ferrari has always been a leader in introducing new state of the art designs and not once have I ever read a single statement from an automotive journalist calling a Ferrari design ugly. A number of car companies have introduced new designs recently that are modern, futuristic and state of the art and are also beautiful. The Peugeot Exalt is awesome, and that’s a Peugeot. The new Lexus LFA concept is awesome. And the ultimate insult about a great new futuristic design, “We strongly believe EV6 is a compelling and relevant model for the new EV market," Former BMW Design Chief Karim Habib said, Senior Vice President and Head of Global Design Center. "With EV6 we aimed to create a distinctive, impactful design by using a combination of sophisticated, high-tech features on pure and rich volumes, while providing a unique space as a futuristic EV." I won’t be mean enough to post the Frank Stephenson videos again. But Hyundai/Kia made a brilliant move by hiring all the really good BMW designers.

Another irony is that the new BMW design language isn’t new at all. In the 1970’s car companies tried odd, out of proportion shapes with no flow or complimentary nature to the whole car. It’s actually a step backwards. Just look at the original BMW M1, until it was revised in 2008 and then actually looked great. How about that Bricklin, AMC or anything Subaru? You can also check out disjointed lines and bad proportions from the 70’s, by Road and Track.

I think that’s the most ironic thing of all, the people saying those of us who don’t like the new BMW design language actually want to go back to a time of the worst design trends in history. Nothing could be more incorrect.

BTW, I also attached a couple of pictures that I know those who like the new BMW design language will certainly appreciate.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

I find it interesting that those who seem to like the new design direction at BMW always have to provide a subtle insult to those that don’t by saying it’s old men yelling at clouds. Next it will be another narrative such as the people that don’t like the new BMW design language don’t like smart phones and think ChatGPT will destroy the world. It’s always some subtle insult about age or intelligence.

I suppose there could be some correlation with like/dislike of the new BMW designs and age, but I have yet to see any studies, much less any data. I also suppose there also could be a correlation in age between those who like great artists such as Rembrant, Renoir, DaVince, Michelangelo and those who like trash from Diebenkorn and Cattelan, but I’m not sure. I did read one study that said Millennials like fine art more than Baby Boomers.

One thing I do know is what automotive journalists think of the new BMW design language. Every article I’ve read reads like this:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news...ng/ar-AA1bgnmC

And don’t even get me started on the, “BMW is selling every car they make”. So is every other car company, and the wait on some KIA’s in longer than the wait on most BMW’s and they have greater dealer markups.

The one question I keep asking the people who like the new BMW design language will never answer is, “Why does a design have to be hideous to be new, modern, contemporary, futuristic and state of the art”?? Ferrari has always been a leader in introducing new state of the art designs and not once have I ever read a single statement from an automotive journalist calling a Ferrari design ugly. A number of car companies have introduced new designs recently that are modern, futuristic and state of the art and are also beautiful. The Peugeot Exalt is awesome, and that’s a Peugeot. The new Lexus LFA concept is awesome. And the ultimate insult about a great new futuristic design, “We strongly believe EV6 is a compelling and relevant model for the new EV market," Former BMW Design Chief Karim Habib said, Senior Vice President and Head of Global Design Center. "With EV6 we aimed to create a distinctive, impactful design by using a combination of sophisticated, high-tech features on pure and rich volumes, while providing a unique space as a futuristic EV." I won’t be mean enough to post the Frank Stephenson videos again. But Hyundai/Kia made a brilliant move by hiring all the really good BMW designers.

Another irony is that the new BMW design language isn’t new at all. In the 1970’s car companies tried odd, out of proportion shapes with no flow or complimentary nature to the whole car. It’s actually a step backwards. Just look at the original BMW M1, until it was revised in 2008 and then actually looked great. How about that Bricklin, AMC or anything Subaru? You can also check out disjointed lines and bad proportions from the 70’s, by Road and Track.

I think that’s the most ironic thing of all, the people saying those of us who don’t like the new BMW design language actually want to go back to a time of the worst design trends in history. Nothing could be more incorrect.

BTW, I also attached a couple of pictures that I know those who like the new BMW design language will certainly appreciate.

What I don't understand is why there's an "us against them" approach with these things. I happen to like some of the new designs (not all... not a fan of the iX and XM), but that doesn't mean I have to hate on the old designs or ridicule the people who prefer the older designs. I happen to think the older designs are beautiful and classic, while also thinking the G80 looks amazing and aggressive, oozing road presence.

I respect other's opinions, but it seems some people are on a mission to insult and ridicule the other party... perhaps to make themselves feel better?

All of the hate only seems to manifest online. In person I've gotten nothing but positive attention for my G80. I used to make fun of people who said they got lots of positive attention in this car, saying things like "calm down it's not a ferrari"... only to completely eat my words when I got my own. Nearly every day I'll get a random thumbs up, or someone driving past saying "nice car!". The other day one of the kids at my daughter's school saw my car and told me he loved it. It's been nothing but love. Online forums would have you believe BMW has lost their minds.

Btw here's my ugly car

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

I just saw the Chinese-owned new MG cyberster design. Wow.

Meanwhile, Geely-owned Lotus smashed it out of the park with the Emira.

BMW designers used to get this kind of credit. Now they release horrendous gape-jawed insectoid monstrosities and we find ourselves defending the design to justify our passion for the brand's previous designs.

I think the days of laughing at Chinese owned car designs are past us. In the course of even 5 years, the tables have been turned.

In all seriousness, have you ever really considered just getting some counseling about the grille? There are people that can therapeutically walk you through this and help you. You have utterly convinced yourself that because you and some other enthusiast hate the changes that everyone on the earth does. So it must really irritate you when you see BMW sales skyrocketing. It completely contradicts what you “feel” to be true.

I have yet to see anything of real quality come out of China. Ever. I’m not saying that China doesn’t make quality things. I just personally haven’t ever seen anything of quality come from China. They always seem to try to find the cheap route when copying American and European Engineering. Now the Japanese on the other hand is a different story as well as the South Koreans. Those two countries make some high-quality products. But I don’t think you’re going to find very many people who argue against German excellence in quality and engineering across-the-board on ALL their products. If anything, the Germans usually go overboard. I’m sorry you don’t like BMWs new designs. However, you just have to come to the realization that you are in the minority on that. Look at me, I think Tesla is one of the most ridiculous, ugly looking vehicles on the road, and I am definitely in the minority on that so I understand where you’re coming from. However, I’m not in denial about Tesla sales. So you and I don’t have that in common.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

I find it interesting that those who seem to like the new design direction at BMW always have to provide a subtle insult to those that don’t by saying it’s old men yelling at clouds. Next it will be another narrative such as the people that don’t like the new BMW design language don’t like smart phones and think ChatGPT will destroy the world. It’s always some subtle insult about age or intelligence.

I suppose there could be some correlation with like/dislike of the new BMW designs and age, but I have yet to see any studies, much less any data. I also suppose there also could be a correlation in age between those who like great artists such as Rembrant, Renoir, DaVince, Michelangelo and those who like trash from Diebenkorn and Cattelan, but I’m not sure. I did read one study that said Millennials like fine art more than Baby Boomers.

One thing I do know is what automotive journalists think of the new BMW design language. Every article I’ve read reads like this:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news...ng/ar-AA1bgnmC

And don’t even get me started on the, “BMW is selling every car they make”. So is every other car company, and the wait on some KIA’s in longer than the wait on most BMW’s and they have greater dealer markups.

The one question I keep asking the people who like the new BMW design language will never answer is, “Why does a design have to be hideous to be new, modern, contemporary, futuristic and state of the art”?? Ferrari has always been a leader in introducing new state of the art designs and not once have I ever read a single statement from an automotive journalist calling a Ferrari design ugly. A number of car companies have introduced new designs recently that are modern, futuristic and state of the art and are also beautiful. The Peugeot Exalt is awesome, and that’s a Peugeot. The new Lexus LFA concept is awesome. And the ultimate insult about a great new futuristic design, “We strongly believe EV6 is a compelling and relevant model for the new EV market," Former BMW Design Chief Karim Habib said, Senior Vice President and Head of Global Design Center. "With EV6 we aimed to create a distinctive, impactful design by using a combination of sophisticated, high-tech features on pure and rich volumes, while providing a unique space as a futuristic EV." I won’t be mean enough to post the Frank Stephenson videos again. But Hyundai/Kia made a brilliant move by hiring all the really good BMW designers.

Another irony is that the new BMW design language isn’t new at all. In the 1970’s car companies tried odd, out of proportion shapes with no flow or complimentary nature to the whole car. It’s actually a step backwards. Just look at the original BMW M1, until it was revised in 2008 and then actually looked great. How about that Bricklin, AMC or anything Subaru? You can also check out disjointed lines and bad proportions from the 70’s, by Road and Track.

I think that’s the most ironic thing of all, the people saying those of us who don’t like the new BMW design language actually want to go back to a time of the worst design trends in history. Nothing could be more incorrect.

BTW, I also attached a couple of pictures that I know those who like the new BMW design language will certainly appreciate.

I’m pretty new to liking on BMW. Only about three years in now I guess. I still prefer Porsche. However, as I’ve been watching the argument between the love the new design crowd versus hate the new design crowd I can tell you my observations are the following. The I hate the new design crowd people are ruthlessly more consistent and cruel, as well as angry. It’s not even close. So I’m really not sure what you’re talking about. From my understanding, I only missed it by a few months, but when BMW released pictures of the new G80 it caused such a ruckus on this forum that quite a few people were banned and it’s my understanding that the vast majority of those people were the haters that were just relentless and wouldn’t stop.

BMW has still kept many models including many M models that have the same 30 year old grille. I own the M5. You don’t like that design also? I don’t think you have a problem with that. So they changed a handful of other ones that are obviously appealing to many new people. I do not understand why you guys have a problem with that. The funny part is the OP is convinced BMW is collapsing as a result of it.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I’m pretty new to liking on BMW. Only about three years in now I guess. I still prefer Porsche. However, as I’ve been watching the argument between the love the new design crowd versus hate the new design crowd I can tell you my observations are the following. The I hate the new design crowd people are ruthlessly more consistent and cruel, as well as angry. It’s not even close. So I’m really not sure what you’re talking about. From my understanding, I only missed it by a few months, but when BMW released pictures of the new G80 it caused such a ruckus on this forum that quite a few people were banned and it’s my understanding that the vast majority of those people were the haters that were just relentless and wouldn’t stop.

BMW has still kept many models including many M models that have the same 30 year old grille. I own the M5. You don’t like that design also? I don’t think you have a problem with that. So they changed a handful of other ones that are obviously appealing to many new people. I do not understand why you guys have a problem with that. The funny part is the OP is convinced BMW is collapsing as a result of it.

To answer your question, I think the F90 M5 is one of the best looking BMW's ever. Does it have lines that don't line up, unproportionate and odd shapes, a total lack of flow? NO, it is the perfect example of aggressive elegance.

I think some of you are still don't understand the message others of us are communicating. It's not about a few new designs that are different from the BMW norm. I think we all welcome the new, but not when it's a complete new direction that takes all the elegance that used to be a BMW trademark and throws it in the trash. On top of that, what the elegant BMW trademark is being replaced with is nothing but going back to some of the worst designs on the 1970's.

Does Ferrari EVER get criticism when it goes in a new design direction AT ALL??

I'm not going to type a novel, but if you really care to understand watch some of Frank Stephenson's (former BMW designer) videos, read the comments of most automotive journalists and the comments on boards that evaluate all brands.

Here's another. Read the comments at the bottom. 99.9% of the comments are what kind of disgusting dog&^%# is BMW putting out these days:
https://jalopnik.com/2024-bmw-xm-lab...car-1850323661

I just can't stand the BMW can do no wrong people. Every car co. makes mistakes, but probably the most famous of all was the Edsel. A vertical grill totally out of proportion with the horizontal plane of the car. Sound familiar?

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

To answer your question, I think the F90 M5 is one of the best looking BMW's ever. Does it have lines that don't line up, unproportionate and odd shapes, a total lack of flow? NO, it is the perfect example of aggressive elegance.

I think some of you are still don't understand the message others of us are communicating. It's not about a few new designs that are different from the BMW norm. I think we all welcome the new, but not when it's a complete new direction that takes all the elegance that used to be a BMW trademark and throws it in the trash. On top of that, what the elegant BMW trademark is being replaced with is nothing but going back to some of the worst designs on the 1970's.

Does Ferrari EVER get criticism when it goes in a new design direction AT ALL??

I'm not going to type a novel, but if you really care to understand watch some of Frank Stephenson's (former BMW designer) videos, read the comments of most automotive journalists and the comments on boards that evaluate all brands.

Here's another. Read the comments at the bottom. 99.9% of the comments are what kind of disgusting dog&^%# is BMW putting out these days:
https://jalopnik.com/2024-bmw-xm-lab...car-1850323661

I just can't stand the BMW can do no wrong people. Every car co. makes mistakes, but probably the most famous of all was the Edsel. A vertical grill totally out of proportion with the horizontal plane of the car. Sound familiar?

I get you brother. All I’m saying is that I think the G80 is the best looking BMW I’ve ever seen. The head mechanic at my dealership just bought one as did several of the sales people. Everybody that I’ve spoken to in person thinks it’s the best looking BMW also. That’s all I’m trying to tell you.

[GinTonic]

Originally Posted by Westside Guy

Obviously you have never looked at a G29 Z4. It has beautiful lines and definitely not a horrendous gape-jawed insectoid monstrosity.

I accept your apology.

Thats hideous. I'm sorry you spent your money on that.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I get you brother. All I’m saying is that I think the G80 is the best looking BMW I’ve ever seen. The head mechanic at my dealership just bought one as did several of the sales people. Everybody that I’ve spoken to in person thinks it’s the best looking BMW also. That’s all I’m trying to tell you.

The G80 M3/4 COULD HAVE BEEN one of the best looking BMW's ever if it weren't for the monstrosity on the front. Best headlights ever and BMW has to do that to a car.

Frank explains starting at 6:40:

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

The G80 M3/4 COULD HAVE BEEN one of the best looking BMW's ever if it weren't for the monstrosity on the front. Best headlights ever and BMW has to do that to a car.

Frank explains starting at 6:40:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSj1Nj2rTc8

I’ve seen that video. I disagree with him vehemently. That’s what I keep trying to say my friend. Some people think the Corvette is a beautiful car. I think it’s ugly as hell. I like the new style one and traditionalists hate it. Well for the most part. Everyone has different opinions. I’m telling you worldwide there are more people that like the new front of the G80 then don’t like it. Sales prove that. So to me you making an argument for the front being ugly is like you trying to convince me old style Corvettes look awesome. It’s not going to work. I appreciate you though. You’re very reasonable with your arguments.