[klipseracer]

So tempting... But considering I already have a full time job, low end properties are looking pretty good on a raw land perspective.

[BTM]

Originally Posted by BigDog

algo trader

Not on your own I'm assuming, for a high freq firm? Did some minor presentations in college on algo and HFT

[BigDog]

Originally Posted by BTM

Not on your own I'm assuming, for a high freq firm? Did some minor presentations in college on algo and HFT

back in the day yes, did work at a hedge fund

now i trade my own account...

[BTM]

So I'm assuming you go direct access? Who do you use if I may ask?

[BigDog]

Originally Posted by BTM

So I'm assuming you go direct access? Who do you use if I may ask?

Advantage, Sheppard, RJ Obrien, and Interactive

[dth656]

most of the math, physics majors i knew in undergrad and grad school ended up at prop trading desks. based upon what they've told me, how can a non-institutional investor ever win, when you are trading against market movers??

[BigDog]

Originally Posted by dth656

most of the math, physics majors i knew in undergrad and grad school ended up at prop trading desks. based upon what they've told me, how can a non-institutional investor ever win, when you are trading against market movers??

there have been many studies done....

you can essentially randomly long or short anything.... what matters is your trade management.... this is whether you do a 1 lot or 1000 lot.... all depends on how you manage your trades....

as far as moving the market.... its not advantageous to always be in a position where your trade can move the market.... often at times you simply want to be a part of the market.... this goes for individual to institutional trading....

for what its worth... you'd be surprised on how easy it is to push the market depending on the contract your trading.... try hitting YM for say a 50 lot in a single clip

[GreenPlease]

Day trading has become tough. It's a rigged game right now with the Fed, I'm just waiting for them to pull the carpet out from under us. If you're going to get in the game, get a big enough bankroll and go with a direct access broker like InteractiveBrokers. $1/trade for stocks (unlimited shares), and $2.40/contract for options, futures, and forex. Tough to beat that. Decent platform as well.

So tempting... But considering I already have a full time job, low end properties are looking pretty good on a raw land perspective.

This. I've traded for long time. It's been in the family (father, grandfather) but real estate looks very tasty right now. I'm looking at a block of thirty bank owned condos, new construction, 1,800sq ft. each, $25,000 each. That's wayyyy below replacement cost. IMO, if you buy below replacement cost, you can't lose.

[BTM]

I've considered it as well, even done a bunch of reading on fundamental/technical/quantitative analysis and made a few profitable trades in leveraged etfs...in the end and after talking to many (successful) brokers I feel the uncertainty and ups and downs would be too much for me...grad school here we come

[BigDog]

at the end of the day, whether you do quantitative trading, tech analysis, etc etc

it all boils down to money and trade management....


some of my most simple strategies have made the most money for what its worth.... just make sure you respect the risk and can handle taking heat...

at the end of the day.... trading is strictly psychological.... nothing more

[BTM]

Originally Posted by BigDog

at the end of the day.... trading is strictly psychological.... nothing more

Warren Buffet might call you out on that one...fundamental analysis has treated him well

[GreenPlease]

at the end of the day.... trading is strictly psychological.... nothing more

I disagree. While psychology is a large element of trading (no doubt) there is also a fundamental aspect. Being on the right side of the fundamentals will improve the probability of making a successful trade. In the long run, the market will revert to whatever the fundamentals can support. The old saying is, however, that the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. That's where bet management comes into play.

Don't forget what financial markets are for: to set prices. If you have an opinion of what the proper price should be (and are right) and understand how the market might get there (psychology, the positions of other players) you can create value in the economy by pushing prices to where they should be and therefore properly allocating resources.

[BTM]

Originally Posted by GreenPlease

I disagree. While psychology is a large element of trading (no doubt) there is also a fundamental aspect. Being on the right side of the fundamentals will improve the probability of making a successful trade. In the long run, the market will revert to whatever the fundamentals can support. The old saying is, however, that the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. That's where bet management comes into play.

Don't forget what financial markets are for: to set prices. If you have an opinion of what the proper price should be (and are right) and understand how the market might get there (psychology, the positions of other players) you can create value in the economy by pushing prices to where they should be and therefore properly allocating resources.

You sound like you have an economics background...as do I

[BigDog]

Originally Posted by GreenPlease

I disagree. While psychology is a large element of trading (no doubt) there is also a fundamental aspect. Being on the right side of the fundamentals will improve the probability of making a successful trade. In the long run, the market will revert to whatever the fundamentals can support. The old saying is, however, that the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. That's where bet management comes into play.

Don't forget what financial markets are for: to set prices. If you have an opinion of what the proper price should be (and are right) and understand how the market might get there (psychology, the positions of other players) you can create value in the economy by pushing prices to where they should be and therefore properly allocating resources.

again, i am talking about trading, not investing... there is a difference.... trading is about psychology..... investing is more involved with fundamentals etc...

in terms of length of trade for what its worth... holding time for me is in the scale of seconds, minutes at most.... fundamentals are non issuefor algo traders

[GreenPlease]

again, i am talking about trading, not investing... there is a difference.... trading is about psychology..... investing is more involved with fundamentals etc...

Nope. No confusion. Investing only takes place during an IPO, a follow-on offering, or a debt issuance. Everything from there on out is a "pricing" activity. Every trade (even if the position is open for only a few seconds) will have a tendency to one side or another based on underlying fundamentals. Good algorithmic traders know this.

"Fundamentals" is a very broad word in the sense I use it. I include things such as liquidity flows and pier arbitrage that are outside of the scope of most "fundamental" analysis.

You sound like you have an economics background...as do I

Ding ding. Economics and finance, actually.

[BTM]

Lol econ undergrad, going to grad school for finance....

[BigDog]

i can appreciate your academic economics/finance knowledge (did a 2nd ms in fin math)... but i can assure that at any high frequency desk, traders are much more concerned about volume/volatility etc rather than if a stock/option/future contract has sound fundamentals.... when you are doing the scale of thousands to millions of trades a day... you're essentially picking pennies in front of a bulldozer... longer term trades may involve fundamental analysis.... but on the time frame most hf algos trade at... the fundamentals start breaking down....

hf algo trading is becoming more and more of an engineering discipline due to the speed factor, you'll have places such as Renaissance or Getco have an engineering team dedicated strictly to hardware design of algorithms in order to avoid latency on the micro scale, places like Geneva or Tradelink employ software solutions like Orc or RTS, or a lot of smaller individuals or prop shops simply co-locate...

[BTM]

Don't get me wrong I respect all three analyses and they are all relevant in their own way...when positions are being opened and closed within seconds I agree that there isn't enough time for a fundamental analysis to apply let alone even be performed...

[GreenPlease]

I divide HF and Alg traders. HF is cheating in my book plus you need a big boy in order to have any hope of staying in the game.

[BTM]

Def, algo traders are not necessarily HF, but HF trading is by definition algorithmic...the SEC sees it as a sort of "cheating" too now that they've banned flash orders

[BigDog]

HF is NOT cheating.... not even close...

[BTM]

No not cheating, but flashing was clearly an issue of information asymmetry...a cardinal economic sin. From an econ point of view I would support competitive HF trading as it points the market toward the more accurate current price faster than any other strategy does