[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Not sure why you decided to pipe in here after the discussion was ended amicably; but since you called me a Troll and said I “crapped on” the thread, I guess I have to defend myself. Typically, as I’ve found on this Forum, someone always gets their panties in a bunch when another Forum member provides rational and accurate comment that counters the marketing spin occasionally released by the BMW Marketing department.

My comments merely pointed out the fact that while BMW’s press release regarding the 25th anniversary of the introduction of the M1 makes it appear that BMW developed the design manufacturing capability and vehicle concept of a monocoque (or spaceframe) chassis that is drivable without the body panels attached, General Motors actually developed the concept and reduced it to high-rate mass production practice four (4) years before BMW, with the Pontiac Fiero. While BMW alludes to the Z1 as so advanced for its time that even cars of today haven’t caught up to the technology introduced by BMW in 1988 (“Back to the Future”). GM started the development of the manufacturing technique and vehicle concept in 1977 if memory serves correct (it might have been even earlier). BMW decided to go with the same basic design concept in 1985.

I simply pointed out that GM developed the concept of a spaceframe, non-structural bolt-on replaceable body panel vehicle, and implemented the concept to make a production car that sold over 370,000 units in its 5-year production run. BMW only built 8,000 vehicles, by hand mind you, based on what were probably guaranteed customer orders. If one reads BMW’s hype piece one would think the Z1 was so advanced for its time that cars in the future (past 2012) will use its construction technique. I just pointed out that after the Pontiac Fiero, GM built an ENTIRE new car company using the technology, called Saturn. So some feat BMW accomplished.

And we can say that the only lasting technology that came from the Z1 was the multi-link rear (Z) axle; the rest of the car was basically left-over E30 hardware. BMW abandoned the concept in 1991. The Fiero legacy is development of plastic body panels and flexible paint processes that are still in use today in the industry. And I didn't mention previously that the Fiero was a mid-engined design... In a mass production car that sold, at the time, for less than $20,000 and got over 30 MPG.

Three things:

1. You've missed the whole point of the thread and started your own left field GM love fest.

2. I don't think you will ever see those "advanced" Fieros commanding the same buyers premium of a Z1 (special cars are special, fieros, not so much).

3. Pontiac and Saturn and all that plastic are no longer in business for a reason.


PS, I never called you a troll, I said they were more clever.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Clifton

Three things:

1. You've missed the whole point of the thread and started your own left field GM love fest.

2. I don't think you will ever see those "advanced" Fieros commanding the same buyers premium of a Z1 (special cars are special, fieros, not so much).

3. Pontiac and Saturn and all that plastic are no longer in business for a reason.


PS, I never called you a troll, I said they were more clever.

Okay, no, the point of the thread was (quoting from the BMW press materials)

“It was a true quantum leap: when BMW unveiled the Z1 to the international motoring press in the Italian town of Punta Ala back in autumn 1988…”

“The leap through time to the Z1 was in fact even greater than the intervening period of 30 years or so would suggest.” – this sentence being about the re-introduction of the roadster [to the BMW lineup] (even though Mazda was less than a year away from releasing the Miata, which actually DID reintroduce the roadster to the industry and the Z3 was BMWs counter to the Miata) – a point I made in an earlier post.

“Its (Z1) avant-garde solutions looked way ahead into the future – indeed, some of its most revolutionary ideas are as unique now as they were then.”

“It had all begun with a very bold idea. The BMW Board of Management came up with the notion of setting up a kind of think tank in a cutting-edge company branch that would be completely isolated from all other development departments. The idea was to give highly skilled BMW engineers, technicians and designers free rein to work on turning their best creative concepts into reality themselves.” - (hum… smells like the idea behind Saturn)

“… the 60-strong team delivered exactly what had been hoped for: concrete concepts designed to inject car manufacture with new impetus, all under the umbrella of a pilot project for employing new materials, using different types of vehicle structure and shortening development times.”

“October 1988: the Z1 – a radically different approach to development and construction.”

You missed the point of my posts; which is the Z1 wasn’t the first monocoque-frame, plastic paneled car, the Fiero was. BMW introduced the Z1 concept in 1985, three years after the Fiero was already in mass production. The Z1 made it to low-rate, hand built production starting in 1988 (with only a total 8,000 units delivered through 1991) ; GM built over 370,000 units in the Fiero’s 5-year production run, and started a new, separate automobile manufacturing company with the technology. My posts are not about a “GM love fest” but rather about providing accurate automotive history. BMW talked about a new type of vehicle, a separate department in which fresh ideas could thrive, and made 8,000 hand-built units; GM on the other hand actually did it at least 5 years before BMW came up with “the idea” (even though GM started the project in the late ‘70s).

BMW doesn’t make aircraft engines any more, does that make it a failure? The automotive market place changes over time, car companies come and go; it’s a natural business cycle. The fact that Pontiac and Saturn are no longer in business is not material to my point that the Fiero was the first monocoque-frame, plastic paneled car instead of the Z1.

And stop trying to insult people, it’s boring.

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Okay, no, the point of the thread was (quoting from the BMW press materials)

You missed the point of my posts; which is the Z1 wasn’t the first monocoque-frame, plastic paneled car, the Fiero was. BMW introduced the Z1 concept in 1985, three years after the Fiero was already in mass production. The Z1 made it to low-rate, hand built production starting in 1988 (with only a total 8,000 units delivered through 1991) ; GM built over 370,000 units in the Fiero’s 5-year production run, and started a new, separate automobile manufacturing company with the technology. My posts are not about a “GM love fest” but rather about providing accurate automotive history. BMW talked about a new type of vehicle, a separate department in which fresh ideas could thrive, and made 8,000 hand-built units; GM on the other hand actually did it at least 5 years before BMW came up with “the idea” (even though GM started the project in the late ‘70s).

BMW doesn’t make aircraft engines any more, does that make it a failure? The automotive market place changes over time, car companies come and go; it’s a natural business cycle. The fact that Pontiac and Saturn are no longer in business is not material to my point that the Fiero was the first monocoque-frame, plastic paneled car instead of the Z1.

And stop trying to insult people, it’s boring.

I think if I were going to spend as much time as you have to pollute a thread, I would at least try and be correct with my history. For example, the Fiero was not the first monocoque-framed car. I would tell you who was, but as a growth opportunity, I think you should research for yourself. Further, plastic body panels were already in use on cars well before the Fiero.

Perhaps the point you were struggling to make was that Pontiac "borrowed" those fuel saving ideas from other car companies. Which is mildly interesting, but as you can see has no relevance within a BMW forum and is a little weak when attempting to discredit the Z1's for similar advancements.

And if you are genuinely consumed with setting some kind of meaningless record straight, it seems silly to do so within a small internet forum in a thread titled "The BMW Z1 Turns 25. Back to the Future." There again, by definition, is the open door that trolls live for.


PS: For the record, I am not insulting anyone. I'm simply letting the hot air escape from an over inflated balloon.

[Red Bread]

Oh please, oh please, can you two fine souls work in the "Porsche" 914 and the Lotus Elan into this incredibly entertaining story of various shitboxes?

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Oh please, oh please, can you two bozos work in the "Porsche" 914 and the Lotus Elan into this incredibly entertaining story of various shitboxes?

Haha - agreed. Be ready, though, for an Efthreeoh/ENINTY/CASPER diatribe.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Clifton

Haha - agreed. Be ready, though, for an Efthreeoh/ENINTY/CASPER diatribe.

Hey, I never called anyone a bozo!

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Hey, I never called anyone a bozo!

But it was your first thought and probably the most accurate.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Clifton

But it was your first thought and probably the most accurate.

That's twice you've missed your chance to bring the Honda Del Sol or a Fiat X1/9 into this discussion!

[Swadeness]

I saw this one today at my local dealership! Its hard to believe that car came from the 80's. This is only the second one I have ever seen. Surprisingly the other one was in Curacao of all places (a little island in Caribbean).

[Efthreeoh]

Stick to the facts gentlemen. The name calling is childish, but expected when panties get wadded...

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Stick to the facts gentlemen. The name calling is childish, but expected when panties get wadded...

I'd like to think we all enjoy giving each other wedgies. But I'm pretty certain there is at least one person out there who might share in your passion for Fieros.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Clifton

I'd like to think we all enjoy giving each other wedgies. But I'm pretty certain there is at least one person out there who might share in your passion for Fieros.

Gee, I’m surprised your Dad gave you permission to post his picture on the internet. That’l teach him to digitize all his old photographs.

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Gee, I’m surprised your Dad gave you permission to post his picture on the internet. That’l teach him to digitize all his old photographs.

That does not even make sense. Perhaps a troll can decipher for us.

[Efthreeoh]

You should have that checked; they make medications for it now.

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You should have that checked; they make medications for it now.

Much like Fiero story.....lame.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Clifton

Much like Fiero story.....lame.

Funny you assumed I was talking about you...

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Funny you assumed I was talking about you...

Didn't need to, it was lame regardless.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Clifton

Didn't need to, it was lame regardless.

So I hope you realize that in the past week or more, 19 of your last 23 posts have been useless retorts to my posts; four of which you invited yourself into the discussion without provocation, only to just be annoying. It's called OCD.

I'm done with responding to you; it really is a bore.

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So I hope you realize that in the past week or more, 19 of your last 23 posts have been useless retorts to my posts; four of which you invited yourself into the discussion without provocation, only to just be annoying. It's called OCD.

I'm done with responding to you; it really is a bore.

Forums are open discussion and they do not require invitation, as you suggest. When I read something I disagree with, I might chime in. When I read a post that is just wrong, like yours, I'll kick the legs out from under it.

In summary, you can be certain that if I disagree with your post, with our without provocation, you will hear from me. Welcome to the internet.

PS: RE: "I'm done with responding to you", you have yet to keep that promise, even under your new alias.

PSS: In the spirit of the thread, below are several pics I snapped at the BMW Zentrum of the Z1. LONG LIVE THE Z1.

[Efthreeoh]

Z1
Wheel Base 96.5 in.
Weight 2,755 lbs.
Width 66.5 in.
Length 154.4
0 – 60 7.9 sec.

Fiero (GT)
Wheel base 93.4 in.
Weight 2,790 lbs
Width 69.0 in.
Length 165.1
0 – 60 7.9 sec

[Clifton]

Fieros had another "neat" special feature:

[Efthreeoh]

So let's just examine this picture. The picture is from Germany, as one can ascertain from the license plates on the BMWs. Of the seven cars in the photo, 3 are Fieros, 2 are VWs, and 2 are BMWs. The neatly-parked VWs and Fieros have obviously been parked in the lot for a few days as evidenced by the small piles of snow that have slid off the hood in front of each car. The only cars that show evidence of being driven recently (that day) are the two BMWs (BMW employee cars perhaps). What is fascinating is how close the two pictures of the de-paneled Z1 and Fiero really are. The laid-out placement of the removed panels is almost exactly the same (i.e. front bumper, hood, front fender, side mirror, door skin, rocker panel, rear fender, etc.). It's almost like the same person was in charge of setting the display of both pictures. Also interesting is GM didn't export the Fiero to Europe, but somehow this establishment has three of them. But we’d surely not think that maybe BMW was reverse engineering the Fiero; that would be blasphemy!