[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Fly320s

You're doing it wrong.

I don't think so, 30+ years of training. The vast majority of police involved shootings last less than 5 seconds and happen at lest then 5 metres. We trained at many different distances and scenarios but the life saving fight to win shooting was instinctive shooting. Your first round usually makes the difference between winning and losing the fight. You might get lucky enough to see your pistol and maybe the front sight but if you train to do that kind of shooting it all happens very fast and you often don't have or take the time to get a proper sight picture.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Murf993

I don't think so, 30+ years of training. The vast majority of police involved shootings last less than 5 seconds and happen at lest then 5 metres. We trained at many different distances and scenarios but the life saving fight to win shooting was instinctive shooting. Your first round usually makes the difference between winning and losing the fight. You might get lucky enough to see your pistol and maybe the front sight but if you train to do that kind of shooting it all happens very fast and you often don't have or take the time to get a proper sight picture.

100% truth.

I think people need to go through scenario training to understand. You also don't need sight picture to hit center mass at 3-5 yards.

[upstatedoc]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

That is true. Most shootings occur within 3-5 yards.

Going along with this, I read a study years ago, I don't remember if it was an NRA or FBI study that the average gun fight is over in 2.5 rounds. Or maybe this belongs in the old fart thread.:

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by upstatedoc

Going along with this, I read a study years ago, I don't remember if it was an NRA or FBI study that the average gun fight is over in 2.5 rounds. Or maybe this belongs in the old fart thread.:

It was the FBI. They are good for statistical data.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

100% truth.

I think people need to go through scenario training to understand. You also don't need sight picture to hit center mass at 3-5 yards.

The training is very different than the type of shooting most people do. I'm not really great at a distance, I could always qualify but it wasn't my strong suit. 25 yards standing you needed to get 6 in centre mass. No misses allowed. I would do it every time but not with a really tight grouping. Lots of recreational shooters would make fun of that as they would have these really tight grouping at 25 yards. But they didn't train to be in a fight where you were being shot at as well. I can hit centre mass a 3-5+ yards all day long and barely look at my sights. We would also train to shoot from the waist, single handed and weak handed. Lots of moving and shooting training to.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Murf993

The training is very different than the type of shooting most people do. I'm not really great at a distance, I could always qualify but it wasn't my strong suite. 25 yards standing you needed to get 6 in centre mass. No misses allowed. I would do it every time but not with a really tight grouping. Lots of recreational shooters would make fun of that as they would have these really tight grouping at 25 yards. But they didn't train to be in a fight where you were being shot at as well. I can hit centre mass a 3-5+ yards all day long and barely look at my sights. We would also train to shoot from the waist, single handed and weak handed. Lots of moving and shooting training to.

Agreed on this/these point(s) as well. The shooting range and dynamic shooting scenario training are very, very different. The best analogy I can present is that of someone who can look spectacular hitting a heavy bag, but fall apart in front of a willing, determined and resistive opponent who is moving and hitting back.

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

That is true. Most shootings occur within 3-5 yards.

It was a real eye-opener for me after my first trip to the range after receiving my CCW, where I was lucky to even hit the paper at 7 yards. On the way home, it dawned on me that 7 yards is roughly the distance between room doors in a typical hotel, school, or hospital! In an active shooter scenario, I'd have to wait until they were almost close enough to punch...even aiming center-mass.....

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

It was a real eye-opener for me after my first trip to the range after receiving my CCW, where I was lucky to even hit the paper at 7 yards. On the way home, it dawned on me that 7 yards is roughly the distance between room doors in a typical hotel, school, or hospital! In an active shooter scenario, I'd have to wait until they were almost close enough to punch...even aiming center-mass.....

Training and repetition will do wonders for your trigger discipline and accuracy. If possible, put 50 rounds through your firearm every month (…consideration given to ammo surplus and shortages). Practice, practice and practice some more.

[Sedan_Clan]

Also, while it looks good to have tight groupings at the range (….all acknowledgement given to the skill it takes to achieve the feat), in the real world, spreading out the trauma to the body is the name of the self defense game. The more holes you poke in various places, the more taxing it is on the body to address. It is easier to deal with one centralized wound area than it is to deal with multiple.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

It was a real eye-opener for me after my first trip to the range after receiving my CCW, where I was lucky to even hit the paper at 7 yards. On the way home, it dawned on me that 7 yards is roughly the distance between room doors in a typical hotel, school, or hospital! In an active shooter scenario, I'd have to wait until they were almost close enough to punch...even aiming center-mass.....

We did a lot of shooting in the 3-7 metre range. Dark range, just a set of roof lights going in the back ground and the targets turn for a 2-3 second exposure before it turns back. You'd be required to get a number of rounds off as instructed as the target was turned, or you'd be told to issue the Police Challenge.

Like Sedan_Clan says, practice, practice, practice.

[Fly320s]

Many points to address. This is all for discussion; I'm not calling out anyone.

Originally Posted by Murf993

I don't think so, 30+ years of training.

30+ years of police training. Police departments aren't known for keeping up with the changing training environment.

I shoot in a just-for-fun LEO league with a bunch of cops. I've also shot IDPA and USPSA with cops. As a general rule, the average cop sucks at shooting.

First round is likely fired before you can think about getting a sight picture.

If you are bringing the gun up to eye level before shooting, you are getting a sight picture: a flash sight picture. At close distance, just having the back of the gun superimposed on the target is a sight picture. A course, gross sight picture, but good enough for that distance.

What you might not be seeing/getting is proper sight alignment, but you should be pretty close. With proper training and practice, you'll be very close to sight alignment and sight picture even when you are shooting at max speed/ability.

spreading out the trauma to the body is the name of the self defense game.

That is flat-out gun store counter bullshit. If that is the best practice, every police department/academy in the country would be teaching officers to shoot into various parts of the body to "spread the trauma." Does your department teach you to do that? Or does your department teach you to shoot into the high thoracic cavity?

Which brings me to the term "center mass." The proper term is center of mass and you shouldn't be aiming for the center of mass. The center of the mass of an adult human is close to the belly button, not the high chest area. You/we should be aiming to hit in the high thoracic cavity. That is where all the really important bits are: heart, lungs, aorta, etc. Putting rounds in that area is much more likely to result in physiological damage that will stop the man as opposed to shooting the same man in the gut.

If you can take the time to aim your shots so that you are "spreading the trauma," then you can take your time to put your rounds into the heart/lungs/arteries.

Pistols are poor fight stoppers. The vast majority of people shot with a handgun survive. The vast majority of people who stop fighting after being shot with a handgun stopped fighting because they quit psychologically, not physiologically. In other words, their fight emotion quit even though their bodies were still able to fight.

All of the above leads to this: Use enough sight picture to allow you to put hits on target. Your target should be the thoracic cavity. Pistol rounds don't make "one shot stops." You'll need to put multiple rounds on target to increase your chance of stopping the fight. To get multiple quick hits on target, you need to have a sight picture. How fine that sight picture needs to be depends on the size of the target and how much time you have.

If you are a law enforcement officer and you are point shooting when you don't have to, you are a liability to innocent bystanders and your department.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Fly320s

I shoot in a just-for-fun LEO league with a bunch of cops. I've also shot IDPA and USPSA with cops. As a general rule, the average cop sucks at shooting.

I won't argue that point because I agree. Most gun owners in general aren't very proficient when it comes to shooting, so I extrapolate that to law enforcement as well. As professionals, we don't shoot nearly as much as we should…….even less so with people holding onto their ammo because of expense/shortages. I personally try to put 100 rounds through one of my handguns or rifles at least once a month depending on what ammo I can find at a decent price. I try not to shoot any of my surplus rounds. We qualify every three months, so I can usually get the range Deputy to sling me 50 rounds to put through my duty gun on the county's dollar.

IDPA, USPSA and similar training programs are great tools, but I stand by my original statement. Training in live-fire scenarios is a different ball game, especially when you are required to divide your attention and react to the threat that could come from any direction in the environment.

Originally Posted by Fly320s

If you are bringing the gun up to eye level before shooting, you are getting a sight picture: a flash sight picture. At close distance, just having the back of the gun superimposed on the target is a sight picture. A course, gross sight picture, but good enough for that distance.

What you might not be seeing/getting is proper sight alignment, but you should be pretty close. With proper training and practice, you'll be very close to sight alignment and sight picture even when you are shooting at max speed/ability.

I think we both understand what the intention was behind the sight picture comment. Sometimes, however, you're firing long before it's at eye level in a close quarters self defense situation.

Originally Posted by Fly320s

Which brings me to the term "center mass." The proper term is center of mass and you shouldn't be aiming for the center of mass. The center of the mass of an adult human is close to the belly button, not the high chest area. You/we should be aiming to hit in the high thoracic cavity. That is where all the really important bits are: heart, lungs, aorta, etc. Putting rounds in that area is much more likely to result in physiological damage that will stop the man as opposed to shooting the same man in the gut.

Again, I think you're being a tad pedantic in the response. Center mass…..thoracic cavity……whatever you want to call it, we are trained to shoot the entire area from neck to belly bottom, shoulder to shoulder and hip to hip.

Originally Posted by Fly320s

If you can take the time to aim your shots so that you are "spreading the trauma," then you can take your time to put your rounds into the heart/lungs/arteries.

You are reading way too much into the trauma statement. My point was that a person needn't be a sharp shooter and worry so much about tight groupings in a self defense situation. This isn't the movies.

Originally Posted by Fly320s

Pistols are poor fight stoppers. The vast majority of people shot with a handgun survive. The vast majority of people who stop fighting after being shot with a handgun stopped fighting because they quit psychologically, not physiologically. In other words, their fight emotion quit even though their bodies were still able to fight.

Pistols accomplish the job more often than not. The other person's survival (…or not) isn't my concern in those moments I'm pulling the trigger. Only my survival is imperative. As long as I stop the threat and I am still alive and breathing, the pistol I used to achieve that has performed to my level of expectation.

Originally Posted by Fly320s

Pistol rounds don't make "one shot stops."

If you are a law enforcement officer and you are point shooting when you don't have to, you are a liability to innocent bystanders and your department.

At what point did anybody suggest any of this??!?!

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

IDPA, USPSA and similar training programs are great tools, but I stand by my original statement. Training in live-fire scenarios is a different ball game, especially when you are required to divide your attention and react to the threat that could come from any direction in the environment.

Our county's sheriff department offers the same scenarios to civilian CCW holders that they do to their officers at their training facility/range...for free! There's a long waiting list, and you have to be a county resident with a CCW. (I don't know if COVID has changed this program, though.)

Getting range time in this area is darn near impossible. All of the sportsman/gun clubs with ranges are full with decade-long waiting lists for new members, and limit the number of guests that a member can bring every year. There is an indoor pistol-only range a few towns over, which is where my DW and I do all of our practice. I'd love to put a few rounds through my NY State-legal "ugly stick" AR-15, but that is probably not going to happen without a road trip.....

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

Our county's sheriff department offers the same scenarios to civilian CCW holders that they do to their officers at their training facility/range...for free! There's a long waiting list, and you have to be a county resident with a CCW. (I don't know if COVID has changed this program, though.)

Getting range time in this area is darn near impossible. All of the sportsman/gun clubs with ranges are full with decade-long waiting lists for new members, and limit the number of guests that a member can bring every year. There is an indoor pistol-only range a few towns over, which is where my DW and I do all of our practice. I'd love to put a few rounds through my NY State-legal "ugly stick" AR-15, but that is probably not going to happen without a road trip.....

That's awesome that your local Sheriff's Dept. has the time and resources to offer that. Shooting from vehicles and utilizing all aspects of a vehicle's cover and concealment points, clearing residences/buildings, traffic stops with bystanders, etc. teach you real quick how truly vulnerable you are in any given scenario.

[Sedan_Clan]

FYI, the A/B/C pillars of a motor vehicle offer legitimate cover (…albeit slim, providing maybe 6-8" of cover). We performed the same test on a vehicle that another department performed which consisted of firing over 100 rounds into the B-pillar utilizing an AR15 loaded with 5.56 rounds. Approximately 156 rounds were fired into the side of an Explorer and not one penetrated the other side.

[Fly320s]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

FYI, the A/B/C pillars of a motor vehicle offer legitimate cover (…albeit slim, providing maybe 6-8" of cover). We performed the same test on a vehicle that another department performed which consisted of firing over 100 rounds into the B-pillar utilizing an AR15 loaded with 5.56 rounds. Approximately 156 rounds were fired into the side of an Explorer and not one penetrated the other side.

Didn't penetrate the other side of the pillar or didn't make it all the way through the car?

I don't know what ammo you were using, but I've seen 5.56 go through the B pillar and the other side of the car. Same with 9mm. Seems to be based more on the construction of the car and less on the bullet. And luck. Cars do weird things to bullets.

In classes with Kyle Lamb at the Sig Sauer Academy, we shot a variety of calibers and bullet types through cars. Some make it all the way to the other side of the car, some don't.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Fly320s

Didn't penetrate the other side of the pillar or didn't make it all the way through the car?

I don't know what ammo you were using, but I've seen 5.56 go through the B pillar and the other side of the car. Same with 9mm. Seems to be based more on the construction of the car and less on the bullet. And luck. Cars do weird things to bullets.

In classes with Kyle Lamb at the Sig Sauer Academy, we shot a variety of calibers and bullet types through cars. Some make it all the way to the other side of the car, some don't.

It didn't make it through the other side of the vehicle. For reference, this was on an Explorer. I do believe construction matters, but because pillars are strong and are designed to maintain integrity during a rollover, they are good points of cover should a vehicle be your only option and you have a mobile opponent.

[Fly320s]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I think we both understand what the intention was behind the sight picture comment. Sometimes, however, you're firing long before it's at eye level in a close quarters self defense situation.




Again, I think you're being a tad pedantic in the response. Center mass…..thoracic cavity……whatever you want to call it, we are trained to shoot the entire area from neck to belly bottom, shoulder to shoulder and hip to hip.



You are reading way too much into the trauma statement. My point was that a person needn't be a sharp shooter and worry so much about tight groupings in a self defense situation. This isn't the movies.

I'm being picky and pedantic here and in my previous post.

As a LEO, you are held to a higher standard, as you should be. You should be attempting to use a proper sight picture and sight alignment when you are able. If you are grappling with a suspect and you can't physically do that, then I understand that an "un-aimed" shot is appropriate, but everyone of your bullets has a lawyer attached to it who is looking for a reason to blame you. And in today's climate, the cop is a target.

"we are trained to shoot the entire area from neck to belly bottom, shoulder to shoulder and hip to hip" Really? You're happy with just hitting anywhere on the torso? You don't want to try to do better? You're happy with lower standards?

Why not train to hit anywhere on the body?

If you are trained and graded to hit anywhere on the torso then what do you think happens in real life? Do you think you will do better when it matters, or worse? Do you think you will be able to make the shot when it counts? Will you be able to actually use your training? Your sights?

If a proper sight picture isn't important for the common distance of OIS, do you train for that? Do you train in point shooting? Does your department or the California POST recommend that technique?

I've never heard a person say "I shoot too accurately."

[Fly320s]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

It didn't make it through the other side of the vehicle. For reference, this was on an Explorer. I do believe construction matters, but because pillars are strong and are designed to maintain integrity during a rollover, they are good points of cover should a vehicle be your only option and you have a mobile opponent.

The shot made it through the pillar but not through the other side of the car. Got it. So, the pillar itself isn't cover, but the pillar plus the other side of the car may be.

What I've learned shooting into and out of cars: cars may be cover. It really depends.

The B pillar itself is only a few inches wide, but it is thicker than air.

And if you ever need to shoot through a vehicle, use P for Plenty. Shoot a bunch of rounds in the hope that some make it through.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Fly320s

As a LEO, you are held to a higher standard, as you should be. You should be attempting to use a proper sight picture and sight alignment when you are able. If you are grappling with a suspect and you can't physically do that, then I understand that an "un-aimed" shot is appropriate, but everyone of your bullets has a lawyer attached to it who is looking for a reason to blame you. And in today's climate, the cop is a target.

What makes you think a proper sight picture isn't preferred? We are well aware that we're accountable for every round that leaves our duty weapon(s). You make it sound like we'd treat the decision to shoot in a wanton and reckless manner. Maybe there's something being lost in translation where this discourse is concerned.

Originally Posted by Fly320s

…"we are trained to shoot the entire area from neck to belly bottom, shoulder to shoulder and hip to hip" Really? You're happy with just hitting anywhere on the torso? You don't want to try to do better? You're happy with lower standards?

Yes, we are trained to shoot in that general area as it's considered a good hit. Sure, there are more accuracy points awarded depending on impact zone (…when we are qualifying), but in a self defense situation, a good hit is a good hit. I would love to put you through a scenario and see how you do. You might be surprised.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I won't argue that point because I agree. Most gun owners in general aren't very proficient when it comes to shooting, so I extrapolate that to law enforcement as well. As professionals, we don't shoot nearly as much as we should…….even less so with people holding onto their ammo because of expense/shortages. I personally try to put 100 rounds through one of my handguns or rifles at least once a month depending on what ammo I can find at a decent price. I try not to shoot any of my surplus rounds. We qualify every three months, so I can usually get the range Deputy to sling me 50 rounds to put through my duty gun on the county's dollar.

IDPA, USPSA and similar training programs are great tools, but I stand by my original statement. Training in live-fire scenarios is a different ball game, especially when you are required to divide your attention and react to the threat that could come from any direction in the environment.



I think we both understand what the intention was behind the sight picture comment. Sometimes, however, you're firing long before it's at eye level in a close quarters self defense situation.




Again, I think you're being a tad pedantic in the response. Center mass…..thoracic cavity……whatever you want to call it, we are trained to shoot the entire area from neck to belly bottom, shoulder to shoulder and hip to hip.



You are reading way too much into the trauma statement. My point was that a person needn't be a sharp shooter and worry so much about tight groupings in a self defense situation. This isn't the movies.




Pistols accomplish the job more often than not. The other person's survival (…or not) isn't my concern in those moments I'm pulling the trigger. Only my survival is imperative. As long as I stop the threat and I am still alive and breathing, the pistol I used to achieve that has performed to my level of expectation.



At what point did anybody suggest any of this??!?!

Well said on all points, thanks.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

Our county's sheriff department offers the same scenarios to civilian CCW holders that they do to their officers at their training facility/range...for free! There's a long waiting list, and you have to be a county resident with a CCW. (I don't know if COVID has changed this program, though.)

Getting range time in this area is darn near impossible. All of the sportsman/gun clubs with ranges are full with decade-long waiting lists for new members, and limit the number of guests that a member can bring every year. There is an indoor pistol-only range a few towns over, which is where my DW and I do all of our practice. I'd love to put a few rounds through my NY State-legal "ugly stick" AR-15, but that is probably not going to happen without a road trip.....

Moved to our new place this time last year. There are 3 range/clubs within an hours drive, not one is even taking names to go on their waiting list. I let my membership laps at my last club because it'd be a 4 hour drive to go shooting. My wife and I are actually taking about buying a small farm close to where we live for an investment and a place to shoot. Ammo is the other issue, I've been stocking up a bit but seriously there isn't much selection.