[Aashenfox]

Never wanted kids, also believe in population control (but pretty redundant living in Greece, entire population 10m), however, it happened for me, kinda by accident, then it happened again. So now I have two beautiful daughters and I would happily do the whole thing again (no I don't want 4, I mean if I had none, I'd do it again knowing what I know now). All that despite no longer having any time whatsoever until the two hours between when they sleep and I sleep, and of course, my wife wants to spend time together then as well. It's hard, but you only have to look at them and laugh with them, and you just don't mind any more.

I don't know if anyone mentioned it in this thread, but having kids turns a genetic switch in most people. It makes you more accepting of problems your kids cause you. I don't resent them when they come in my office when I'm busy and demand my attention, for example. I do when ANYBODY else does it though, including my wife.

My eldest at 3 years old already stops traffic, I'll be having fun when she's a teenager, that's for sure, blonde with GIANT blue eyes and looks like she should be in commercials for toddler products, she's stunning. I still look at her everyday and feel proud that 'I did that'. Glad I had girls. Boys are a lot more trouble usually.

[Templar]

Yea.

It's all about choice. You can CHOOSE to live like a hermit when you have kids, but you don't have to.

My buddy's four year old has probably done more in her lifetime than half the people on this forum. She's been all over the country, lived in multiple places, been pretty much everywhere they have been. She's been multiple places in Europe as well. They started on her right when she was born.

I've heard people judge them for it because they are "being too reckless." I really don't see it that way. To each his own, even though everything lately is about putting others down for their choices, if only in a round about way.

[KingOfJericho]

Our second is due in about a month so we will have two under two until July. Haven't seen my friends nearly as much as I used to but the time with my kids is much more valuable. I'm just past that stage of my life and I wouldn't change it for the world! We took our daughter with us to Italy already and she was a great little traveler. She also sleeps 12 hours a night which is great.

[Billup]

Originally Posted by Templar

I've heard people judge them for it because they are "being too reckless." I really don't see it that way. To each his own, even though everything lately is about putting others down for their choices, if only in a round about way.

I don't see it being that way either. I find it more admirable than anything because people shut down their lives when they have kids.

I was reading the paper on my flight back and they had something interesting about paying for kids college tuition as well. Something like 56% of parents surveyed would go into $25k or more in debt to pay for their kids to get a college tuition, instead of maybe giving them a head start. Another 51% said they would pull from their retirement and keep working to provide money for their kids to go to school as well.


I'm sorry, but if I worked my whole life and got where I'm at, my kids sure as hell should be able to do the same.

[KingOfJericho]

What I will also add is that it's ok to not want kids. I just don't understand why some would opine that those of us who do decide to have kids are all miserable. My kids make me happier than I have ever been but I don't expect those without kids to understand that feeling. It's not uncommon for people to bitch about the things that aren't so glamorous, but that's because sometimes it's just fun to kvetch. Doesn't mean they don't enjoy being parents.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

What I will also add is that it's ok to not want kids. I just don't understand why some would opine that those of us who do decide to have kids are all miserable. My kids make me happier than I have ever been but I don't expect those without kids to understand that feeling. It's not uncommon for people to bitch about the things that aren't so glamorous, but that's because sometimes it's just fun to kvetch. Doesn't mean they don't enjoy being parents.

Kinda what I was getting at with my last statement.

[JoeFromPA]

I've read just a few pages of this thread, but let's correct a few things:

1. "Having kids" is not about the experience of the first 6-12 months - it's a lifelong experience and commitment. Having a baby is a very short term thing. It's like saying "middle school was rough" was you are 40. So what? It was rough. You dealt with it, and you experienced 38 other years of your life.

2. Yes, you give up your lifestyle for some period of time. A really good sleeping baby, a network of caregivers local to you (I.e. a mom who is great with your family and can provide alot of care), the financial means to hire a nanny-babysitter frequently - all of these things dictate the degree of giving up on lifestyle. I know parents who 6 weeks after their child was born were going away, by themselves, for a weekend in another country and supplying caregivers with pumped breastmilk to feed the baby.

I was not one of those. I have the means, but I have given up most of my lifestyle over the last 2.5 years. And that's ok.

3. As a recent father of two (a 5 month old and a 2.5 year old) who didn't think I wanted to have kids, it's really hard to explain how instincts work but let me try...

Think about your love of your mother or father or brother and why that exists and to what depth that exists. Some cherished family member, preferably one who has shaped your life. Hopefully you have one or more.

Why does that bond exist? It probably doesn't provide you income, it's not about having fun on a friday night....and yet there are these deep rooted bonds that we form with certain people.

Having a child is fundamental in a way that nothing else in this world adequately captures. They are yours in a way that nothing else is and in a deeper sense than anything else can capture. There are instincts inside of your brain that do not exist today that will kick-in sometime after your child is born.

Now let me set your expectations a bit on my experience: I didn't love my first born in any deep seated way for ~6 months. I thought that was weird, but it was just the whole expectation of loving him as soon as I first held him was weird. I was terrified of screwing him up for 1-2 months and then I was ddealing with some stuff for a few months after that...

I have spent 12 out of the last ~30 months of my life experiencing some of the toughest and most testing times of my life. I dealt with my wife experiencing post partum depression in the months after our first (PPD is not what you think and it manifests in different ways).

I am a different man today than I was 30 months ago in ways I could have never foreseen. My 2.5 year old is a source of joy, of pride, or time, of focus, of frustration. But none of that matters: he is mine.

...

There is no way in words to adequately describe the creation of your own child and what that will most likely do to you. There are people who can't handle it. I feared I was one of them. Turns out I wasn't - that's actually a source of pride for me.

But there's nothing wrong with feeling unsure of it, of not understanding why you want it, of seeing all the downsides to it, and of not feeling connected as soon as the child is born.

Don't sweat not understanding something that there's no way to experience until you do - just ask yourself if you want to experience it at least one time in your life. If the answer is "maybe", then do it.

[Lups]

Interest thread. Here is my story.

As said often, I really had horrible female role models growing up. I can't blame them for my choises but at this point in my life I wouldn't change the past anymore.

I decided at the age of seven I will never have kids. I didn't want anyone else, let alone a kid suffer the coldness we seem to radiate from my mothers side and my friends had really happy families that made me envy them a lot. My father was great but also a very busy man, so there was not a lot of love to see while a kid.

While in school my plan of what to do with my life evolved and I was going to go and work on a fair trade organization and make money roll in to the people who have nothing. Then retire and die. A safe life with very little to be afraid for.

My cousin got her infertility diagnose when she was 28, six years older than I was. My other cousin from my mothers side made his big leap from life shortly before that and my dad's only brother's kids have a genetic condition that seems to pretty much fuck their lives up before they hit 20.

Anyway. No kids ever for Anna changed in two seconds when I went to see a doctor after feeling like shit for months. He said kindly "if you are planning on having kids, with your family history I wouldn't wait very long". I was 23, and on that second I knew that even when I felt I had nothing to give for a child, I would work damn hard to be a person I wasn't at that moment. I stood up and told him yes, I want kids and I'm going to get started on this straight away. Dear spouse kindly decided he really didn't mind either way, and I, who never wanted any and who was supposed to have rough time having any made a positive test 5weeks later from that day.

My point is, things change. Even if you think you know all about yourself and have set your views early either way, leave a window open. Life is long.

My friend said to me after my first was born that he never knew me before that. We grew up together, we've done everything always together, but his words were "you never were you before the spawn came out". I don't consider myself so different in many ways. I still like my cars fast, I still do shit that most would consider idiotic, I still go around trying to save the world but in a smaller scale and I still lose sleep over things I consider wrong.

My kids saved me from me and I learned I have way more to give than I had hoped for.

[carve]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Think about your love of your mother or father or brother and why that exists and to what depth that exists. Some cherished family member, preferably one who has shaped your life. Hopefully you have one or more.

I think this is part of my issue; I'm not close to my parents. I really don't have much to talk to them about. They divorced when I was about 10. My mom was and is very generous, but insane, and kind of has a martyr complex about her generosity, and spent too much time at work. My dad was always disappointed I wasn't interested in typical boy stuff like fishing or baseball, was very passive aggressive about it with very little patience, and he gets most of his enjoyment from teasing kids...getting them to do stupid kid stuff and making them look like idiots. It helped me develop a great sense of logic and skepticism, but it also conditioned me to emotionally shut down around him to not give him the sense of smug satisfaction when he was teasing. Both are very passive aggressive. I grew up in a very rural area without really having any other kids to play with, and I'd always be the last kid picked up at DayCare so my dad could take Fridays off. Didn't mesh well with my 2nd grade teacher and did poorly in school, and my parents basically punished me instead of helping me; it was extraordinarily isolating...being out in the middle of nowhere and having malice over what was already a tough time...even having all my toys taken away. If I knew what suicide was at age 7, I totally would have done it. Things were better the next year, but I never trusted my parents after that year, and trusted them even less when they got divorced. I also became withdrawn after that and had a harder time making friends, which was already difficult being at a rural school populated by bully redneck kids. My mom remarried and had another kid when I was almost 15, and I saw how much work kids were. He was a little brat then, and is a good guy now, but suffering from major emotional problems.

Anyway, I guess my perspective was that being a kid sucked, and being a parent looked like it sucked as well, which probably contributed to my parents divorce and my life getting even suckier. In comparison, my life is fucking awesome now. I have a beautiful, smart fun girlfriend, travel all over the world doing adventurous things like skiing and scuba diving, have a nice car, nice house, good friends and make a lot of money (although doing something I'm not passionate about). Having a kid would make most of that go away, and I'd probably have to work an extra 10-15 years before I could afford to retire.

I don't want to be a different man. Most parents I see look way too serious and stressed all the time. They typically seem less happy, excited and joyful than the non-parents I know. Perhaps they're more fulfilled, but less happy. I guess it's just not for me, but for good reason.

[Taskmaster]

I want kids. I have a deep, intrinsic desire - almost primal, to pass on my superior genetic code to as many people as possible.

[dreamingat30fps]

I'd consider having kids when I can get them on Amazon with pre-paid shipping labels to send them back.

[squishy]

^just shove them back up where they came from

[Lups]

Originally Posted by squishy

^just shove them back up where they came from

Lol!

[Billup]

Originally Posted by squishy

^just shove them back up where they came from

You know, after a nine month investment, you'd do much better selling them on the black market. I've heard kids go for a pretty good rate these days.

[Joekerr]

Originally Posted by Billup

You know, after a nine month investment, you'd do much better selling them on the black market. I've heard kids go for a pretty good rate these days.

You mean there's a market aside from grimlock?

[Billup]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

You mean there's a market aside from grimlock?

[Templar]

Originally Posted by carve

I think this is part of my issue; I'm not close to my parents. I really don't have much to talk to them about. They divorced when I was about 10. My mom was and is very generous, but insane, and kind of has a martyr complex about her generosity, and spent too much time at work. My dad was always disappointed I wasn't interested in typical boy stuff like fishing or baseball, was very passive aggressive about it with very little patience, and he gets most of his enjoyment from teasing kids...getting them to do stupid kid stuff and making them look like idiots. It helped me develop a great sense of logic and skepticism, but it also conditioned me to emotionally shut down around him to not give him the sense of smug satisfaction when he was teasing. Both are very passive aggressive. I grew up in a very rural area without really having any other kids to play with, and I'd always be the last kid picked up at DayCare so my dad could take Fridays off. Didn't mesh well with my 2nd grade teacher and did poorly in school, and my parents basically punished me instead of helping me; it was extraordinarily isolating...being out in the middle of nowhere and having malice over what was already a tough time...even having all my toys taken away. If I knew what suicide was at age 7, I totally would have done it. Things were better the next year, but I never trusted my parents after that year, and trusted them even less when they got divorced. I also became withdrawn after that and had a harder time making friends, which was already difficult being at a rural school populated by bully redneck kids. My mom remarried and had another kid when I was almost 15, and I saw how much work kids were. He was a little brat then, and is a good guy now, but suffering from major emotional problems.

Anyway, I guess my perspective was that being a kid sucked, and being a parent looked like it sucked as well, which probably contributed to my parents divorce and my life getting even suckier. In comparison, my life is fucking awesome now. I have a beautiful, smart fun girlfriend, travel all over the world doing adventurous things like skiing and scuba diving, have a nice car, nice house, good friends and make a lot of money (although doing something I'm not passionate about). Having a kid would make most of that go away, and I'd probably have to work an extra 10-15 years before I could afford to retire.

I don't want to be a different man. Most parents I see look way too serious and stressed all the time. They typically seem less happy, excited and joyful than the non-parents I know. Perhaps they're more fulfilled, but less happy. I guess it's just not for me, but for good reason.

I am not trying to convince you to change your mind, but just trying to point out that not every or even most parents out there are miserable like you're trying to make it seem. Sorry that you only seem to know people that regret having kids. Makes me wonder why they actually had them, or if it just kind of happened.

[ASBSECU E93]

Originally Posted by carve

I think this is part of my issue; I'm not close to my parents. I really don't have much to talk to them about. They divorced when I was about 10. My mom was and is very generous, but insane, and kind of has a martyr complex about her generosity, and spent too much time at work. My dad was always disappointed I wasn't interested in typical boy stuff like fishing or baseball, was very passive aggressive about it with very little patience, and he gets most of his enjoyment from teasing kids...getting them to do stupid kid stuff and making them look like idiots. It helped me develop a great sense of logic and skepticism, but it also conditioned me to emotionally shut down around him to not give him the sense of smug satisfaction when he was teasing. Both are very passive aggressive. I grew up in a very rural area without really having any other kids to play with, and I'd always be the last kid picked up at DayCare so my dad could take Fridays off. Didn't mesh well with my 2nd grade teacher and did poorly in school, and my parents basically punished me instead of helping me; it was extraordinarily isolating...being out in the middle of nowhere and having malice over what was already a tough time...even having all my toys taken away. If I knew what suicide was at age 7, I totally would have done it. Things were better the next year, but I never trusted my parents after that year, and trusted them even less when they got divorced. I also became withdrawn after that and had a harder time making friends, which was already difficult being at a rural school populated by bully redneck kids. My mom remarried and had another kid when I was almost 15, and I saw how much work kids were. He was a little brat then, and is a good guy now, but suffering from major emotional problems.

Anyway, I guess my perspective was that being a kid sucked, and being a parent looked like it sucked as well, which probably contributed to my parents divorce and my life getting even suckier. In comparison, my life is fucking awesome now. I have a beautiful, smart fun girlfriend, travel all over the world doing adventurous things like skiing and scuba diving, have a nice car, nice house, good friends and make a lot of money (although doing something I'm not passionate about). Having a kid would make most of that go away, and I'd probably have to work an extra 10-15 years before I could afford to retire.

I don't want to be a different man. Most parents I see look way too serious and stressed all the time. They typically seem less happy, excited and joyful than the non-parents I know. Perhaps they're more fulfilled, but less happy. I guess it's just not for me, but for good reason.

IMHO - The reason people have children, or do not have children runs across all rational and logic. There are so many reasons to have or not to have children. Lifestyle, finances, ability to love unconditionally, etc...no one truly understands what it is like to be a parent until they actually are one.

I believe that you are asking the right questions - but it is a commitment if the answer is yes to have children...

It seems that you lead an active lifestyle - with children your focus goes from each other to the children. Trips are planned to accommodate the travel requirements of the children - no more "quick trips" to the beach or ski lodge.

On the other side - you get to raise a human being, instill knowledge, pass on the values you learned over time, experience "new things" through a child's eyes...leave a legacy for the next generation.

After reading this - I tend to think it would be a chance for you to experience (vicariously through your child) the type of childhood that you should have, or would liked to experience. There is no obvious right or wrong choice, just your choice.

[UncleWede]

carve,

First and foremost, you were NOT the cause of your parents' divorce. Something you really need to remove from your programming. Hopefully you can get past that.

Second, all the lifestyle you have now can continue after you have a child. It would add to the things you and your SO can do TOGETHER and with your child(ren) Next time you are in the airport, on the slopes, diving: look around. Don't you see kids too?

Watching someone go from totally and completely dependent on you for everything, to being a function individual, to a self-sufficient thinking young adult just gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment that doesn't come from anywhere else I've ever found in 48 trips around the sun

[NickyC]

I had a couple kids, but they're their Stepdad's problem now.

-Deadbeat Rob Lowe.

[bkM3]

my boy will be 10 months next week and the things these kids do crack you up. like the stupidest little things. for example, i put him on the couch yesterday and he picked up the remote, pointed it at the tv, and kept staring at the tv while pushing the buttons.
how the hell does he already know?

the sense of joy and pride you get from knowing that you had apart in creating that human is unexplainable. the other day i sat down next him and he just rested his head on my shoulder and rested his arm on my chest. iv never felt anything like that in my life.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

You mean there's a market aside from grimlock?

lolololol

pedobear for you..