[grimlock]

JoeFromPA - thanks, I learned something from that. I'd consider myself not quite family oriented, however you have described something that has not crossed my mind before.

Originally Posted by Lups

My friend said to me after my first was born that he never knew me before that. We grew up together, we've done everything always together, but his words were "you never were you before the spawn came out". I don't consider myself so different in many ways. I still like my cars fast, I still do shit that most would consider idiotic, I still go around trying to save the world but in a smaller scale and I still lose sleep over things I consider wrong.

My kids saved me from me and I learned I have way more to give than I had hoped for.

Very profound, thanks.

Originally Posted by carve

I think this is part of my issue; I'm not close to my parents. I really don't have much to talk to them about. They divorced when I was about 10. My mom was and is very generous, but insane, and kind of has a martyr complex about her generosity, and spent too much time at work. My dad was always disappointed I wasn't interested in typical boy stuff like fishing or baseball, was very passive aggressive about it with very little patience, and he gets most of his enjoyment from teasing kids...getting them to do stupid kid stuff and making them look like idiots. It helped me develop a great sense of logic and skepticism, but it also conditioned me to emotionally shut down around him to not give him the sense of smug satisfaction when he was teasing. Both are very passive aggressive. I grew up in a very rural area without really having any other kids to play with, and I'd always be the last kid picked up at DayCare so my dad could take Fridays off. Didn't mesh well with my 2nd grade teacher and did poorly in school, and my parents basically punished me instead of helping me; it was extraordinarily isolating...being out in the middle of nowhere and having malice over what was already a tough time...even having all my toys taken away. If I knew what suicide was at age 7, I totally would have done it. Things were better the next year, but I never trusted my parents after that year, and trusted them even less when they got divorced. I also became withdrawn after that and had a harder time making friends, which was already difficult being at a rural school populated by bully redneck kids. My mom remarried and had another kid when I was almost 15, and I saw how much work kids were. He was a little brat then, and is a good guy now, but suffering from major emotional problems.

Anyway, I guess my perspective was that being a kid sucked, and being a parent looked like it sucked as well, which probably contributed to my parents divorce and my life getting even suckier. In comparison, my life is fucking awesome now. I have a beautiful, smart fun girlfriend, travel all over the world doing adventurous things like skiing and scuba diving, have a nice car, nice house, good friends and make a lot of money (although doing something I'm not passionate about). Having a kid would make most of that go away, and I'd probably have to work an extra 10-15 years before I could afford to retire.

I don't want to be a different man. Most parents I see look way too serious and stressed all the time. They typically seem less happy, excited and joyful than the non-parents I know. Perhaps they're more fulfilled, but less happy. I guess it's just not for me, but for good reason.

Carve, I didn't grow up hating it the experience, but rather as an adult I see now who my parents truly are - which is a sad, chilling realization but one that is unavoidable. Would you rather know from a young age that you parents don't like you, or wait until you're grown to realize it was all a lie? It shatters you, but no one can control where they came from, only where they are headed.
Whatever choice you make will be the right one for you, as it is for everyone - who doesn't make the best decision they can with what they know?
As life draws us inexorably forward, ironically the best use of time is to know ourselves as we were as children. (no pedo -for templar)

[Lups]

I'm babysitting a month old baby who has issues. And I volunteered for the job. I got him at 5am and oh boy would the old Lupsie get her kicks laughing at me right now. I'm covered in spit, he is screaming his head off, and I'm sitting here him in my lap telling him all about other people who has been tormented at this scale too. Oh boy did the things change for me. Lol

I think I need a few more kids of my own.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by bkM3

my boy will be 10 months next week and the things these kids do crack you up. like the stupidest little things. for example, i put him on the couch yesterday and he picked up the remote, pointed it at the tv, and kept staring at the tv while pushing the buttons.
how the hell does he already know?

the sense of joy and pride you get from knowing that you had apart in creating that human is unexplainable. the other day i sat down next him and he just rested his head on my shoulder and rested his arm on my chest. iv never felt anything like that in my life.

Our boy is now almost 16 mos. Oddly, I felt exactly as you did back then. But it seems that the older the toddler gets, the more human and selfish they become (selfish is good, it's human). Walking seems to be the key that unlocks major changes. From a helpless creature, to one who suddenly has demands.

Doesn't change the fact that they are a creature that we willingly created, just interesting to see the progression. I mean we all know the expression terrible twos, but it seems there is a lot behind it.

What I do not look forward to is college savings, it makes daycare child's play. $1,349/mo. from the instant the baby is born, to 22 years old. The assumption is that you will pay the entire tuition (not so at an elite college, where it's 10% of income--but can the child gain admission?). If you want to count on aid, then maybe that number shrinks to $583/mo.

[Nkc]

John are you seriously saving up $1349/mth now for your infants college education? That seriously blows my mind.

I seriously couldn't give 2 shits if my kid went to college. Life's too short to plan 22 years from now.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by Templar

Yea.

It's all about choice. You can CHOOSE to live like a hermit when you have kids, but you don't have to.

My buddy's four year old has probably done more in her lifetime than half the people on this forum. She's been all over the country, lived in multiple places, been pretty much everywhere they have been. She's been multiple places in Europe as well. They started on her right when she was born.

I've heard people judge them for it because they are "being too reckless." I really don't see it that way. To each his own, even though everything lately is about putting others down for their choices, if only in a round about way.

This i agree with. I have some friends who have 2 kids that are similar to what you have described. Their kids, like you said, have experienced more than most of our other friends.

Too many people put too much of their focus on their kids. Kids shouldn't the center of your life. This is why the divorce rate of "empty nesters" has skyrocketed over the past decade. People who have put their lives on hold for their kids find out they have nearly NOTHING in common with their spouse when the kids move out. It's really sad, but happens all too often.

I'm a firm believer that your spouse and the relationship between you and your spouse comes first in ANY family dynamic. Whether you're married with kids, married without kids, married with kids and have in-laws living with you or your siblings and their kids living with you. Job number ONE is taking care of your spouse and your marriage. After that, taking care of your kids and or extended family is a much easier task.

And don't get me started on the disservice people do for their children when their lives revolve around their kids. What an uphill battle you create for them when they are to become a self sufficient adult in society.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by Nkc

John are you seriously saving up $1349/mth now for your infants college education? That seriously blows my mind.

I seriously couldn't give 2 shits if my kid went to college. Life's too short to plan 22 years from now.

Last year he was going to pay $1600 a month for day care. Should be able to get to sizzler a few times a month now.

Originally Posted by John 070

My friend's wife has a Brown undergrad and Harvard MBA, and she stays at home. She was probably earning I think close to 200k when she had their baby. It's a personal decision. Probably, if she decided to go back to work she could. It's very fascinating to me how when you have kids, life is, and is not, all about money. Personally I find it outrageous to have to pay $1600/mo. for daycare, and then be expected to save $1200/mo. for college from birth. UM, most of us have mortgages and other bills to pay as well! but at the same time, I would not let these things delay what's actually very natural and really a good thing.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Nkc

John are you seriously saving up $1349/mth now for your infants college education? That seriously blows my mind.

I seriously couldn't give 2 shits if my kid went to college. Life's too short to plan 22 years from now.

"Thanks dad!" - Nkc's son in 17yrs..

[JimM6GC]

Hi folks!

I usually don't inhabit this area of the board, and I only joined last year, so I was not really around here when this topic was hot. I decided to chime in because I am turning 58 next month, my wife and I don't have kids, and Curve is a very impressive, thoughtful person.

First, a bit of background. I grew up in a housing project on the east coast. There were 150+ families on one block. Not one of those high-rise slums, but tiny townhomes packed together in a plurality of U-shaped configurations (24 homes per U) such that you could hear everything going on around you. Especially in the summer when everyone had their windows open. Parents would argue loudly with each other, beat their kids, and so on. The usual stuff. Not surprisingly, there were no shortage of criminals. Some clearly from bad parenting (one of my friend's father taught him how to steal when he was 10), but also some from seemingly good parents who seemed to try their best, but the kid(s) just went haywire. Another one of my friend's brothers stole the chalice from a local church. So I can attest that there is no guarantee that trying hard to be a good parent will guarantee success.

I read through all 500+ posts in this thread, and, as is often the case, there are some very wise comments. I wish the Internet was available when I was a kid! However, IMO there are a few questions that seem to be "begged."

There is no shortage of people who say that they didn't want kids, but then having kids was the best thing that ever happened to them. However, some people have confided in me that they regret having children (after they learned that my wife and I didn't have or want kids). Jeez, how many people have the guts to say that?!?! They did so because they felt safe doing so.

I have also talked to younger people going through the same thing Curve was going through, and one of the first things I say is: "If you were 100% like me, then I could give you some great advice. However, you are not, so take whatever I say with whatever size grain of salt you believe it deserves. I can only tell you how I feel and what is right for me." While reading answers to the question of why people want kids is informative as to why they want kids, I submit that you cannot act on that information until you first give really, really, serious thought to perhaps the most important question of all:

WHO AM I?

Pardon me for getting all Kalifornia Kozmic on all y'all, but IMO you have to address that question FIRST. The problem, of course, is that it is not easy to answer that question, and it is harder to answer it the younger you are. For anyone interested, I recommend a book by Steadman Graham (Oprah's hubby) titled, appropriately enough, Who Are You?. It is one of those books that is very short, but you really must read every line, pause, and think about the full implications of what is said in that line.

Another very important question is:

WHAT DO I WANT FROM LIFE?

For a humorous (but somewhat profound nonetheless) take on that question, here's some insight from The Tubes from 40 years ago.

Once you have come up with a prioritized list, then ask if having children is compatible with that list. For those goals where having kids may be relevant to achieving that goal, ask whether having kids is the only way you can achieve that goal. You may be able to achieve that goal some other way.

For example, I am a Humanist, so I do not believe in an afterlife. I believe this life is all there is, so life is extremely precious to me and should be precious to all my earth-mates. Morally, one of my goals is that someday (preferably later rather than sooner) I will lay on my deathbed with the belief that just maybe I made things a little bit better than when I arrived.

By now, I know very well who I am, and I am extremely grateful that I didn't have kids. (BTW, my wife feels exactly the same way). As people come into and go out from my life, another one of my goals is to have contributed to their happiness, even if in a very small way. Well, except for the A-holes. Eff 'em. I'm not that nice. I don't need kids to do that.

I also hope to write a book someday aimed at some disillusioned kid with the goal of inspiring him/her to change his/her lousy situation in life (hmmm, I wonder where that idea could have come from ). Again, I can achieve that goal sans kids of my own.

Pardon my rambling. Take all that with whatever size grain of salt you believe it is worth.

[ashtaron14]

My life's goal is to live life, which to me, is to be able to go through the stages (child, youngster, teenager, adulthood, mature, old), play, go to school, work, be single, married, married with children, grandparent, great grandparent.

I got married last May. My wife is on her 16th week of pregnancy.We just found out we're having a boy last night. I've done enough research on strollers that I can recognize some of them on the streets or at the mall. We're both excited that Bamm Bamm is coming (yeah that's our nickname to him). We know that having a child (or two) is financially and can be emotionally difficult, but it's our mutual decision, and we're excited to be in a new chapter of our lives.

[Whostheboss]

Originally Posted by ashtaron14

My life's goal is to live life, which to me, is to be able to go through the stages (child, youngster, teenager, adulthood, mature, old), play, go to school, work, be single, married, married with children, grandparent, great grandparent.

I got married last May. My wife is on her 16th week of pregnancy.We just found out we're having a boy last night. I've done enough research on strollers that I can recognize some of them on the streets or at the mall. We're both excited that Bamm Bamm is coming (yeah that's our nickname to him). We know that having a child (or two) is financially and can be emotionally difficult, but it's our mutual decision, and we're excited to be in a new chapter of our lives.

Congrats

[Billup]

I really should reach out to my 20 children and see how they're doing.

[bkM3]

Originally Posted by ashtaron14

My life's goal is to live life, which to me, is to be able to go through the stages (child, youngster, teenager, adulthood, mature, old), play, go to school, work, be single, married, married with children, grandparent, great grandparent.

I got married last May. My wife is on her 16th week of pregnancy.We just found out we're having a boy last night. I've done enough research on strollers that I can recognize some of them on the streets or at the mall. We're both excited that Bamm Bamm is coming (yeah that's our nickname to him). We know that having a child (or two) is financially and can be emotionally difficult, but it's our mutual decision, and we're excited to be in a new chapter of our lives.

Ha we also call our kid bam bam. Although we came up with the nickname after he was born when every time we gave him something to play with he would bang it and crack himself up

[miiipilot]

Originally Posted by grimlock

"Thanks dad!" - Nkc's son in 17yrs..

Do you actually think a kid would say thanks? Kids rarely do that now, let alone in 17+ years That larvae comes out already feeling entitled to that money.

[Douche]

Am I the only one who misses Litos photo show?

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by Douche

Am I the only one who misses Litos photo show?

I do some times.

Why was he permabanned?

[Douche]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

I do some times.

Why was he permabanned?

Would like to know too
His contributions were second to none

[John 070]

Originally Posted by Nkc

John are you seriously saving up $1349/mth now for your infants college education? That seriously blows my mind.

I seriously couldn't give 2 shits if my kid went to college. Life's too short to plan 22 years from now.

Honestly? No, do not have enough disposable income to do that. Math is brutally honest, there's only one answer. Going the financial aid route is still almost $600.

Why I can definitely say resources are more scarce today. For one, college would be $38,500 if you use what it was when I went, converted to 2015 dollars, not over $70k. Secondly, my parents did save from when I was born to 22, going the financial aid route. $600 might be doable shortly, $300 definitely. But to answer your question, $1349 is not doable....

[upstatedoc]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

I do some times.

Why was he permabanned?

I believe it had something to do with posting something about people who are attracted to people of their own gender.

[NEFARIOUS]

Personally, it's a double-edged sword. On one hand, my parents divorced when I was 7, and my dad's side has an extremely small and broken family; both my dad and I were only children, so no aunts, uncles, brothers or sisters for me, and the only family left are 2nd cousins. My mom's side has a relatively big family, but I'm only in FB contact with 2 cousins and I'm somewhat estranged with my mom.

With that, kids used to annoy the piss out of me (I HATED the sound of kids crying), and a misbehaving brat where the parents don't do anything about it still gets under my skin to this day... I had a roommate whose kid was spoiled rotten and always running amok, and compared to my almost overly strict upbringing, it make me sick to see her tear through a BOX of fruit snacks (I'm surprised as hell that she hasn't gained much weight and is still skinny as a twig), she's had to have tons of cavities extracted, and the mom refuses to do anything about it.

Anyway, I could go on fine without kids if I were to, but at the same time, I want the family that I felt I never had, and I feel like it's up to me to create that experience... Also, I've been relaxing my view on children over the last 2 years and actually want to become a father. Yes, there's its trials, tribulations and phases, but in the end, I don't want to be the last stand of my family... Also not to mention my landlord introduced me to his client, who owns a manufacturer/wholesaler of baby furniture and I currently work there doing data entry, graphics and web design, so having to Photoshop a crib into an empty room since the owner is too cheap to rent a studio is pretty daunting work, but I noticed what helps me do a better job is, "If I were to put my son/daughter into this room, how would I decorate it?"... But after 3 weeks of doing that, all I can think of on my days off sometimes are all the memories I'd share with my future son or daughter, not to mention all the pics my friends are posting of their kids kinda makes me want to have one too.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by NEFARIOUS

Personally, it's a double-edged sword. On one hand, my parents divorced when I was 7, and my dad's side has an extremely small and broken family; both my dad and I were only children, so no aunts, uncles, brothers or sisters for me, and the only family left are 2nd cousins. My mom's side has a relatively big family, but I'm only in FB contact with 2 cousins and I'm somewhat estranged with my mom.

With that, kids used to annoy the piss out of me (I HATED the sound of kids crying), and a misbehaving brat where the parents don't do anything about it still gets under my skin to this day... I had a roommate whose kid was spoiled rotten and always running amok, and compared to my almost overly strict upbringing, it make me sick to see her tear through a BOX of fruit snacks (I'm surprised as hell that she hasn't gained much weight and is still skinny as a twig), she's had to have tons of cavities extracted, and the mom refuses to do anything about it.

Anyway, I could go on fine without kids if I were to, but at the same time, I want the family that I felt I never had, and I feel like it's up to me to create that experience... Also, I've been relaxing my view on children over the last 2 years and actually want to become a father. Yes, there's its trials, tribulations and phases, but in the end, I don't want to be the last stand of my family... Also not to mention my landlord introduced me to his client, who owns a manufacturer/wholesaler of baby furniture and I currently work there doing data entry, graphics and web design, so having to Photoshop a crib into an empty room since the owner is too cheap to rent a studio is pretty daunting work, but I noticed what helps me do a better job is, "If I were to put my son/daughter into this room, how would I decorate it?"... But after 3 weeks of doing that, all I can think of on my days off sometimes are all the memories I'd share with my future son or daughter, not to mention all the pics my friends are posting of their kids kinda makes me want to have one too.

Seriously, I didn't care one way or the other about kids either....one can definitely live high off the hog if they are single, or dinks. Kids change everything--everything you spend on yourself, is coming out of the mouth, daycare, or college, of your child. Because the latter is limitless, and for 22 years.

However, having kids seems very natural when you are a grown up--do what you feel is right. Obviously, for many, having kids is the right thing to do....

I'm really amazed how different my son is at 16 mos. (almost), than when he was born, 3 mos., 6 mos., 9 mos., 12 mos. etc.....he has 3 hockey sticks 22" long, just about right for him. But when he see's the 60" one, he grabs it and walks around his room with it, with a correct lefty grip (his two sticks except the goalie are lefty as well)...

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by John 070

Seriously, I didn't care one way or the other about kids either....one can definitely live high off the hog if they are single, or dinks. Kids change everything--everything you spend on yourself, is coming out of the mouth, daycare, or college, of your child. Because the latter is limitless, and for 22 years.

However, having kids seems very natural when you are a grown up--do what you feel is right. Obviously, for many, having kids is the right thing to do....

I'm really amazed how different my son is at 16 mos. (almost), than when he was born, 3 mos., 6 mos., 9 mos., 12 mos. etc.....he has 3 hockey sticks 22" long, just about right for him. But when he see's the 60" one, he grabs it and walks around his room with it, with a correct lefty grip (his two sticks except the goalie are lefty as well)...

Can you explain this statement in more depth?

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by John 070

I'm really amazed how different my son is at 16 mos. (almost), than when he was born, 3 mos., 6 mos., 9 mos., 12 mos. etc.....he has 3 hockey sticks 22" long, just about right for him. But when he see's the 60" one, he grabs it and walks around his room with it, with a correct lefty grip (his two sticks except the goalie are lefty as well)...

I was out playing with my niece and saw a little boy around the same age (~2rs) who looked like a carbon copy of my childhood friend (except it was someone else's kid) - it was so cute and shocking I almost died from cute overload.