[BwoodBMW]

The new CTS-V will be an absolute beast.... I think the front end is one of the best looking in the entire industry and the back end is perhaps the worst. Its like they had a separate design team for front vs back. Really too bad because like the ATS V it'll be a great driver held back by poor design inside and out.... don't even get me started about CUE.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Ever driven a Camaro? You can't see jack shit out of a Camaro. You can see just fine out of a 4 or a 6 Series, they're coupes so you'd obviously expect less visibility than a sedan but none of them can hold a candle to how god awful the Camaro is, especially with it's high belt line and low seating position. Should actually try driving a Camaro.

"The Germans and Japanese seem to sweat the details of overall ergonomics much more than GM does."

Compare the features and usability of them in a BMW or a Lexus then try them in a Cadillac. I never said that German and Japanese cars were more "exciting" than GM. Ergonomics <> excitement. If I argued that they were more "exciting" than GM, I'd be wrong.

Oh yes, I've driven a Camaro, for years. The rear window on the GC is almost exactly the same, and I mean almost exactly, it's not like the 4 coupe, much smaller, side visibility is a little better, as the sills aren't so high, but they are higher than cars of just a few years ago and the 3 series. Same with the hood, you can't really see the hood/front end because of how high the hood is. You gotta stop thinking that BMWs **** don't stink. The Camaro has all sorts of functions that the bmw has, actually more in many areas. Of course you get used to the size and after a while its second nature. Ergonomically, it's not perfect, it's the cost of the styling, but it's fun to sit that low in the car and GM isn't stupid, it comes standard with a back up camera and sensors, bmw doesn't even come standard with sensors. The steering wheel is almost exactly the same as the m sport, with controls in the exact same location.

And all that a said, the new Cadillac interiors are not crap, it's rare to find a crappy interior on even a mid level car (optioned out) these days because everyone has stepped up their game.

And the funnest part about driving the Camaro was the handling, could absolutely rail around a turn, LS3 was great, but the chassis stiffness, balance and handling was no joke. They went to great efforts to get the weight low and balanced between front and rear, like the cts and ats.

[Nitrousbird]

Originally Posted by Haywood

Can someone show me a professional reviewer choosing the CTS-V over a M5? I'm sorry, not to sound like a BMW snob, but every company has been trying to catch up with the M3 and M5 for performance sedans and most have all failed. I'm sure the Caddy is a nice car, but I have zero appeal for it's looks. There is no situation ever that I would choose a Caddy over a M5 for performance. It's never been proven to be a better overall performance sedan.

LOL. Here is just one of many. http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...sv_comparison/

There isn't a review of the new one since it isn't out yet.

Originally Posted by Roma_335xi

By pig i mean they always leak oil like crazy. Much more then any german vehicle. And i know this by experience i am a mechanic at NTB .

LOL - you have never heard of the 6 series, known for being the leakiest car made this century. BMW's in general are very leaky cars.

Originally Posted by rjd598

you're right the m5 is depreciating faster now. i was thinking in the long term. i think the cts-v will become a $30k car sooner than the m5 will be. who knows

30k...there is a single CTS-V on Autotrader nation wide at that price, 2009. There are a few a little above that price.

On the other hand, there are a ton of '08 and '09 M5's under 30k...and quite a few around the 25k mark. Remember, that's a car that cost a good 30k more than the CTS-V new...

The new CTS-V will be a better performer and overall car than the 2nd Gen model. It will have a higher starting price. The M5 is better than the previous model and a similar starting price as the previous generation. Historical re-sale would leave me to believe the M5 will hit the 30k mark a lot sooner that the new CTS-V.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

And all that a said, the new Cadillac interiors are not crap, it's rare to find a crappy interior on even a mid level car (optioned out) these days because everyone has stepped up their game.

No they're pretty crappy, at least in the ATS, haven't sat or been in a new CTS. I'm not the only one who thinks so:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1143937

There's a Car and Driver feature from the August issue, an M3 vs. ATS-V vs. C63 S.

Given all the hate C&D slings at BMW, it's surprising the M3 won top honors, not so much that the ATS-V came in last. They loved the way the car handled but said the engine was ho-hum and the interior and CUE systems were God awful. As well as an annoyingly high belt line and small rear seats. It was also dinged for having rear seats that don't fold down and a gaudy rear spoiler.

Like I said, they seem to excel at one thing and are just ok in all the others whereas the competition offers a better complete package. Like C&D states, these are pretty easy fixes (although I'm not sure why they were overlooked to begin with) so I'm sure they'll improve with time. Kind of hard to justify paying the same amount of money for one of those when you can get more bang per buck with the competition.

Despite being the weakest car on paper, the M3 was as fast if not faster than the other two.

[David70]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

No they're pretty crappy, at least in the ATS, haven't sat or been in a new CTS. I'm not the only one who thinks so:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1143937

There's a Car and Driver feature from the August issue, an M3 vs. ATS-V vs. C63 S.

Given all the hate C&D slings at BMW, it's surprising the M3 won top honors, not so much that the ATS-V came in last. They loved the way the car handled but said the engine was ho-hum and the interior and CUE systems were God awful. As well as an annoyingly high belt line and small rear seats. It was also dinged for having rear seats that don't fold down and a gaudy rear spoiler.

Like I said, they seem to excel at one thing and are just ok in all the others whereas the competition offers a better complete package. Like C&D states, these are pretty easy fixes (although I'm not sure why they were overlooked to begin with) so I'm sure they'll improve with time. Kind of hard to justify paying the same amount of money for one of those when you can get more bang per buck with the competition.

Despite being the weakest car on paper, the M3 was as fast if not faster than the other two.

I thought this thread was about the CTS?

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by David70

I thought this thread was about the CTS?

We're speaking of Cadillac's in general.