[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by ScottSinger

Ferrari does AWD

Not only do they do AWD, they designed their own for the FF with a crazy setup to keep the cog low. That's a whole different level than typical AWD grocery-getter-that-never-see-ice-anyway cars.

[BoosTonian]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Not only do they do AWD, they designed their own for the FF with a crazy setup to keep the cog low. That's a whole different level than typical AWD grocery-getter-that-never-see-ice-anyway cars.

I stand corrected

I knew the FF was awd, don't know why u put they wouldn't do awd.

But even then, it's two deprecate systems working together. All this talk about the M cars "needing" awd. The laferrari is rwd and launches fine lol awd certainly will help but insist needed.

But back to BMW lol y'all know what I'm getting at. I don't agree with BMW building something for everyone and diluting the brand. Brings back the memory of GM prior to its restructuring.

[Mdrei]

The article said it clear. They pumped out cars to try and maintain the #1 position. They failed on 2 fronts:
1. flooded the dealers with cars that are not moving
2. misjudged the market forces, MB especially.
This is a clear sign that bean counters are in charge at BMW and things are about to get worse; why?

- the bread and butter 3 series is not pulling the weight it is supposed to. It's actually a failure.
- the new MB E class will wipe the floor with an already ageing 5 series.
- the 7 series came out 2 years after the S class and proves to be already at least 1 generation behind. The interior is crap compared to the S, among other things.
- the M brand is so diluted there is no more margin to be made on M Marketing. The days of M Motorsport and machines that could chase Porsche are long gone. Heck the M6 GC cannot keep up with the RS7.
- the cars value-to-cost ratio is total crap when compared to MB and Audi.

They milked it to the hilt and are starting to witness a massive crash. Case in point, I just ordered an Alpina B6 and got a way bellow invoice price without even asking; the dealer was practically begging me to place the order. There are discounted M3/M4s all over.

And Scott, the fact that the X3 sells does not imply that people are choosing it over the regular 3 series (that's BS). It's because, MB GLC just hit the market and the GLK was crap. Next year this time it will be a different picture, the GLC is a much better car.

All in all BMW needs to realize that value, not an emblem, sells. BMW needs to crash and return to its core; same cycle MB went through. Until than I will drive AMG and Porsche.

[Zirenz2006]

Originally Posted by Mdrei

The article said it clear. They pumped out cars to try and maintain the #1 position. They failed on 2 fronts:
1. flooded the dealers with cars that are not moving
2. misjudged the market forces, MB especially.
This is a clear sign that bean counters are in charge at BMW and things are about to get worse; why?

- the bread and butter 3 series is not pulling the weight it is supposed to. It's actually a failure.
- the new MB E class will wipe the floor with an already ageing 5 series.
- the 7 series came out 2 years after the S class and proves to be already at least 1 generation behind. The interior is crap compared to the S, among other things.
- the M brand is so diluted there is no more margin to be made on M Marketing. The days of M Motorsport and machines that could chase Porsche are long gone. Heck the M6 GC cannot keep up with the RS7.
- the cars value-to-cost ratio is total crap when compared to MB and Audi.

They milked it to the hilt and are starting to witness a massive crash. Case in point, I just ordered an Alpina B6 and got a way bellow invoice price without even asking; the dealer was practically begging me to place the order. There are discounted M3/M4s all over.

And Scott, the fact that the X3 sells does not imply that people are choosing it over the regular 3 series (that's BS). It's because, MB GLC just hit the market and the GLK was crap. Next year this time it will be a different picture, the GLC is a much better car.

All in all BMW needs to realize that value, not an emblem, sells. BMW needs to crash and return to its core; same cycle MB went through. Until than I will drive AMG and Porsche.

I would argue the S class interior is horrible...much like the new C class interior

[BoosTonian]

Originally Posted by Mdrei

The article said it clear. They pumped out cars to try and maintain the #1 position. They failed on 2 fronts:
1. flooded the dealers with cars that are not moving
2. misjudged the market forces, MB especially.
This is a clear sign that bean counters are in charge at BMW and things are about to get worse; why?

- the bread and butter 3 series is not pulling the weight it is supposed to. It's actually a failure.
- the new MB E class will wipe the floor with an already ageing 5 series.
- the 7 series came out 2 years after the S class and proves to be already at least 1 generation behind. The interior is crap compared to the S, among other things.
- the M brand is so diluted there is no more margin to be made on M Marketing. The days of M Motorsport and machines that could chase Porsche are long gone. Heck the M6 GC cannot keep up with the RS7.
- the cars value-to-cost ratio is total crap when compared to MB and Audi.

They milked it to the hilt and are starting to witness a massive crash. Case in point, I just ordered an Alpina B6 and got a way bellow invoice price without even asking; the dealer was practically begging me to place the order. There are discounted M3/M4s all over.

And Scott, the fact that the X3 sells does not imply that people are choosing it over the regular 3 series (that's BS). It's because, MB GLC just hit the market and the GLK was crap. Next year this time it will be a different picture, the GLC is a much better car.

All in all BMW needs to realize that value, not an emblem, sells. BMW needs to crash and return to its core; same cycle MB went through. Until than I will drive AMG and Porsche.

A m4 kept up with a aventador and gt3 around the ring recently...I think it's safe to say the M brand is the only solid thing in bmws lineup right now. (M performance brand I don't consider part of the m brand)

[autopal]

Originally Posted by Zirenz2006

I would argue the S class interior is horrible...much like the new C class interior

I don't know how someone could look or sit in a 3 series, and then say the C class interior is horrible

[Mywifes335]

Originally Posted by autopal

I don't know how someone could look or sit in a 3 series, and then say the C class interior is horrible

Yeah there's a point where taste/preference becomes moot. New C class interior is a design innovation. Just awesome. Way better than the segment calls for.

[FogCityM3]

You may not be aware of how the ///M division lost nearly all its autonomy, which led to the departure and turnover of execs and engineers. It is well documented throughout the threads and historical articles that the turbocharged engines are not what ///M wanted to build and many of the key people that advocated for normally aspirated continuation of the engines are essentially gone today. ///M used to be its own corporate entity more closely aligned with motorsport programs and the F-1 program...today it is a division of BMW GmBH with far fewer independent decision rights. Significant monetary and human capital was diverted over to the i-Division as ///M became the victim of cost rationalization and a desire to share as many parts with the base car as possible.

As far as the reviews, you only have to go back through history where ///M was almost universally the category and comparison leader with enthusiasts and the press. All the M3s, and the beloved E39 and E60 M5 were untouchable and all automakers strived to achieve the same balance between luxury and motorsport. Today, it is a far different story with comparisons being lost to Cadillacs, Camaros and Fords, which was unfathomable five years ago.

Also, I would say that BMW's design team has lost all of its cutting edge design cues once Chris Bangle departed. They now produce extremely conservative and look-alike designs that make it difficult to distinguish the cars from the competition and within their own lineup. Think people realize now that while controversial at the time, his designs have aged extremely well over time and many automotive critics now admit that he was ahead of his time and manufacturers today are emulating BMW design features from 10-12 years ago. He was another big loss to BMW.

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

Near death of the M devision? Most criticized product in M history?

Huh? Any links to show what you are talking about?

[gds52]

Base 3-series interiors are v basic with flat non-sport seats and these are not performance cars either. Look at Nissan, the interiors are fine with great quality and way cheaper in price. BMW needs to provide value for money in terms of interior quality and sportiness with the base model itself.

[FogCityM3]

Sorry, but without the "complaining" BMW has less of an incentive to improve their product. Look at the M2, where it was obvious that ///M addressed some of the largest criticisms of the M4 (many of which originated on these forums), so if people don't provide constructive criticism, BMW will rest on its laurels. It is for the historical love of the brand that people speak up and consumers are net beneficiaries of this.

I personally have no interest in a forum that is an echo-chamber of self-congratulations and validation. I'm glad that those who run this forum allow people to express their opinion. BMW is watching and probably taking note of constructive criticisms...how much it affects actual decisions, we'll see over time!

Originally Posted by RVS

People have too much stigma against BMW on this forum. If you don't like the current line up then get something else lol. Stop complaining.

[shivaswrath]

Originally Posted by Mdrei

The article said it clear. They pumped out cars to try and maintain the #1 position. They failed on 2 fronts:
1. flooded the dealers with cars that are not moving
2. misjudged the market forces, MB especially.
This is a clear sign that bean counters are in charge at BMW and things are about to get worse; why?

- the bread and butter 3 series is not pulling the weight it is supposed to. It's actually a failure.
- the new MB E class will wipe the floor with an already ageing 5 series.
- the 7 series came out 2 years after the S class and proves to be already at least 1 generation behind. The interior is crap compared to the S, among other things.
- the M brand is so diluted there is no more margin to be made on M Marketing. The days of M Motorsport and machines that could chase Porsche are long gone. Heck the M6 GC cannot keep up with the RS7.
- the cars value-to-cost ratio is total crap when compared to MB and Audi.

They milked it to the hilt and are starting to witness a massive crash. Case in point, I just ordered an Alpina B6 and got a way bellow invoice price without even asking; the dealer was practically begging me to place the order. There are discounted M3/M4s all over.

And Scott, the fact that the X3 sells does not imply that people are choosing it over the regular 3 series (that's BS). It's because, MB GLC just hit the market and the GLK was crap. Next year this time it will be a different picture, the GLC is a much better car.

All in all BMW needs to realize that value, not an emblem, sells. BMW needs to crash and return to its core; same cycle MB went through. Until than I will drive AMG and Porsche.

Discounted M3s!? Where?!

[Mdrei]

Originally Posted by MThree_driver

A m4 kept up with a aventador and gt3 around the ring recently...I think it's safe to say the M brand is the only solid thing in bmws lineup right now. (M performance brand I don't consider part of the m brand)

Saw the video also against the GT4 and SV, not conclusive whatsoever; it's all driver skill.

I have to disagree, there is nothing left of the M brand, just a label.
Look at the C63S AMG, the new MB E43 AMG, the RS5 and RS7. The M division is playing catch up in all segments and add to that a steep price. Sales prove my point. M cars used to sell around MSRP, now you get them for pretty much anything.

Where are the days where you could just get in and go Porsche hunting, like the e46 M3. Or where is the sound/performance of the e60 M5 that kept up with Ferraris, etc. MB announces bigger AMG engines, and BMW slaps Active Sound in the M and gives us a pig of an M5 and M6.

The scary part is that even Audi is handing it to the Ms. Caddy with the CTS-V is right here also. Crash and hopefully not burn.

[Zirenz2006]

Originally Posted by autopal

I don't know how someone could look or sit in a 3 series, and then say the C class interior is horrible

Well...it's possible

[Mdrei]

Originally Posted by shivaswrath

Discounted M3s!? Where?!

There are at least 2 collecting dust on the dealer lot here in Long Island below MSRP. And this is Long Island where people love to pay sticker, LOL.

[Mdrei]

Well said!

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

You may not be aware of how the ///M division lost nearly all its autonomy, which led to the departure and turnover of execs and engineers. It is well documented throughout the threads and historical articles that the turbocharged engines are not what ///M wanted to build and many of the key people that advocated for normally aspirated continuation of the engines are essentially gone today. ///M used to be its own corporate entity more closely aligned with motorsport programs and the F-1 program...today it is a division of BMW GmBH with far fewer independent decision rights. Significant monetary and human capital was diverted over to the i-Division as ///M became the victim of cost rationalization and a desire to share as many parts with the base car as possible.

As far as the reviews, you only have to go back through history where ///M was almost universally the category and comparison leader with enthusiasts and the press. All the M3s, and the beloved E39 and E60 M5 were untouchable and all automakers strived to achieve the same balance between luxury and motorsport. Today, it is a far different story with comparisons being lost to Cadillacs, Camaros and Fords, which was unfathomable five years ago.

Also, I would say that BMW's design team has lost all of its cutting edge design cues once Chris Bangle departed. They now produce extremely conservative and look-alike designs that make it difficult to distinguish the cars from the competition and within their own lineup. Think people realize now that while controversial at the time, his designs have aged extremely well over time and many automotive critics now admit that he was ahead of his time and manufacturers today are emulating BMW design features from 10-12 years ago. He was another big loss to BMW.

[bodonx]

Originally Posted by Zirenz2006

Civic has better interior than 3 series?

Have u compared 320i basic to new civic?

One example, 3 series AC temp uses 8-bit display compared to higher-res one on corolla or civic

[64-bit]

Originally Posted by vegasevo9

Same thoughts here. We just bought a 2016 Civic Ex for my wife. For a lease payment of $220 a month, you get Apple Car Play, reverse camera, comfort access, projector headlights(i added hid), sunroof and it drives very well for a non german car.

I have a 2016 LCI M3 as well and wish i did not have to pay a lot of money on those features. I initially thought of getting my wife a 3 series but backout out due to this.

Got to admit, I own a 16 M3 and my next car will not be a BMW, a car that has a base 65K price that does not comes with backup camera! And now even worst for 2017 that has no maintenance included... If they are being cheap on this stuff can u imagine what the will be doing to the actual cars to save money?

That are several options out there today, and if BMW don't open their eyes even BMW fans like me will be walking away.

[Powaup]

Originally Posted by RVS

People have too much stigma against BMW on this forum. If you don't like the current line up then get something else lol. Stop complaining.

Yea seriously.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Zirenz2006

Civic has better interior than 3 series?

Maybe true but it is a kids car.

Always will be.

[copmagnet82]

Originally Posted by Zirenz2006

Civic has better interior than 3 series?

I sat in the new civic and it's actually quite nice especially for half the price of a similarly equipped 3 series. It doesn't have the badge, but you'd be surprised how nice it is.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by Mdrei

There are at least 2 collecting dust on the dealer lot here in Long Island below MSRP. And this is Long Island where people love to pay sticker, LOL.

Habberstad? They've had that orange one since last summer.

[goj]

Originally Posted by kevinlevrone

BMW needs to realize that their latest cars are simply ugly.

1 - series - I couldn't believe they could build a 1-series that is uglier than the previous generation. Even the facelift (which could easily fix it by adopting the 2-series front end), did not fix the ugliness.

F30 3-series - they took all the good things from the e90 LCI and ruined them. That front nose, that side profile...it's just sad The C-class and A4 easily look better.

F10 5-series - unnecessarily heavy and large, looks bland and doesn't have any personality whatsoever.

G11 7-series - frankly it looks uglier than the facelifted previous generation 7-series.

New X5 - easily looks worse than the previous generation

New X6 - front end looks worse than the previous generation

i3 - hilariously ugly.

What is the common denominator here, for the F30, X5 and X6: front-ends are ruined by two design elements: headlights merging into the front grille, and headlight shapes that resemble some random lines drawn by someone with Parkinson's disease.

BMW really needs to change something in their designs. They need designs that look great right from the first sight, instead of controversial designs.

I stepped into a BMW dealership a few days ago and there was no car that I would have spent my money on, except the F30 M3 which somehow manages to look really good despite its F30 design roots.

Soooooooo why are you here? You're subjective comments don't hold much weight...they seem to have sold quite a bit of ugly cars eh?