[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

I agree with lots of what you're saying except for the functional space comment. The thing is, 10% or less of licensed drivers couldn't care less about driver's experience. Makes sense then that as a large car manufacturer, you goal just cannot be to please 10% of the potential market out there. There are still cars in BMW lineup that will make some of those 10% happy.

Those of you who said would move away from BMW as a brand, if you stop comparing old to current models, but instead look at all brands, current models only. What brand out there appeals to you over BMW right now? Which brand do you think is significantly better ?

As I said, I feel that lots of your comments are valid in terms of driver's involvement, but I think that's just the way the whole industry is moving, not just BMW.

The space situation is... weird. The F10 M5 back seat is useless (front seat back is almost touching the back seat in my driving position), and the car is bigger than an e38 7 series. The e39 M5 is smaller than an F82, and I can comfortably sit behind myself in it (I'm 6'4).

I do agree the entire industry is moving that way. It's just the worst at BMW, because they went from being the undisputed best driving practical cars, to losing driving dynamics comparison test to Cadillac/Lexus, while becoming less practical.

If I were forced to buy a new car, I'd probably get a C7 corvette? But, in reality, if I go the corvette route, I wouldn't buy new one (C7), as I hate electric power steering-- I'd get a C6 Z06. If I had to buy a new/current 4 seater, I'd probably get the Tesla. Yes, it's still EPS, but at least you get something in exchange for your driving dynamics compromise-- no fuel needs and autopilot for traffic jams. I drive 100 miles/day (it's what I have the M5 for), so those two things do appeal to me. But, by no means would I be looking at that as an enjoyable driving experience-- more, a different benefit. If I had to buy a 3 series competitor, I'd likely go the Lexus route. Better driving dynamics, lexus reliability, cheaper.

In reality, thought, there are very few cars for sale at any price that I have any interest in currently. That's why I haven't purchased a new car in a while, and don't have any plans to replace my practical cars.

I suspect I'll be buying and build a factory five type 65 coupe, soon. Might do it with an S65, because I don't like torque in a sporty car

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I can comfortably sit behind myself in it (I'm 6'4).

You are extremely talented

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

You are extremely talented

Eh?

I meant I can comfortably sit behind the driver's seat, with the driver seat in my normal, uncompromised, position.

[W///]

All this ranting about how BMW has lost their way has been around since the beginning. I supposed this is what happened when the 2002 went away, when the E30 went away ect ect....

If you want to get the cars that drove like the ones in the past, then get those. But don't expect an F90 M5 to drive like an E28 M5, get over yourselves.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I meant I can comfortably sit behind the driver's seat, with the driver seat in my normal, uncompromised, position.

I know exactly what you meant, it's my very first test in any car I'm interested in. However (I'm 6'7") "perfectly seated" in the back seat is a stretch for guys like you and me in most cars. For F10 in particular, rear seat leagroom doesn't seem to be that much better than 3 series when you first look, as the space between back of the front seat and the rear seat seems very close. That is until you realize that rear seat of F10 is quite a bit deeper.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

I know exactly what you meant, it's my very first test in any car I'm interested in. However (I'm 6'7") "perfectly seated" in the back seat is a stretch for guys like you and me in most cars. For F10 in particular, rear seat leagroom doesn't seem to be that much better than 3 series when you first look, as the space between back of the front seat and the rear seat seems very close. That is until you realize that rear seat of F10 is quite a bit deeper.

I'm actually pretty sure the back seat in the F10 is worth than the F30, strangely. Especially comparing the M3 to the M5-- the seats in the M3 being lighter also makes them thinner, makes more back seat space.

But, yeah, I wouldn't claim I fit "perfectly" behind myself in any BMW, other than a long wheelbase 7 series. Perfectly meaning I can swing my knees in and out.

The other issue with the newer cars, from a tall person perspective at least, is, as back seat passenger, in most of their cars you can't put your feet under the front seats anymore. I suspect that occurred as they lowered the roof to reduce drag (lowered the seats to keep headroom constant), but it makes for a much worse back seat experience if the person in front doesn't leave enough space for your feet to aim forwards.

I have a friend that's 7'1 that tracks an e36 M3. That's a squeeze.

[FMLYSDN]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

I love my M4. The V6 engine is terrific. But that's what I've come to expect from a manufacturer that has specialized in making V6 engines from the beginning of its history. In fact, my very first BMW was a V6 -- the 2800 Bavaria. And a long line of V6 engines since then.

/sarcasm

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Obioban

My glasses aren't rose tinted by recollection on the slightest-- I've had 5 M3s, two M5s, and currently have an e36, e46, and e9X (pretty sure rose tinted glasses are limited to things you're no longer experiencing). I don't have an F8X because every time I've driven it I've had zero desire to own one. And I have wrenched on all of them-- in fact, I wrenched on one of my e46's at the BMW performance center, in SC, as I took delivery of the car, with the head of M in the room shaking his head at me taking apart my 2 mile on the clock car

Modern BMWs just drive like ass compared to the old ones. Throttle response has died to turbos, steering feel has died to EPS, ability to be worked on has died to disposable car design, practical use of space has died to... who knows what, NA redline bliss has died to turbo torque boredom, form follows function styling has died to gaudy tacky on over stylized japanese looking cars.

Outside of EPS, the Miata is as good of an example as the Aston. My point with the video had nothing to do with that specific car, and everything to do with him talking about what is wrong with modern performance cars in general. Also, you missed his point-- he isn't saying get rid of bluetooth/nav/whatever-- he's saying it shouldn't be the selling feature of a performance car. The driving experience should be-- which seems to have been forgotten in this era of speed/gadgets > driver involvement/experience.

I got his point, what you and the presenter forget, is that driving experience isn't an objective thing. What you may hate to drive, someone else may love (Chris Harris raves about the F8x, as do other Top Gear presenters but you can just as easy find someone who hates it, such as yourself).

Some people prefer the low end availability of torque, which yes is quite the departure of the wailing high RPM NA engines of the past, but that's not to say BMW's turbocharged engines don't love to rev as they can rev fairly high comparative to other turbos.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

I got his point, what you and the presenter forget, is that driving experience isn't an objective thing. What you may hate to drive, someone else may love (Chris Harris raves about the F8x, as do other Top Gear presenters but you can just as easy find someone who hates it, such as yourself).

Some people prefer the low end availability of torque, which yes is quite the departure of the wailing high RPM NA engines of the past, but that's not to say BMW's turbocharged engines don't love to rev as they can rev fairly high comparative to other turbos.

Chris Harris has lost the ability to say anything negative about any car in the last couple years. Everything is sunshine and rainbows, per Harris. A far cry from the presenter that got banned from reviewing ferraris long ago (in fact, his decent to rainbows and sunshine land probably began when he made his "I'm sorry Ferrari, please take me back, your cars are awesome" video).

The F8X can rev high, for a turbo engine. But, that's missing the point. There's no need to rev it out, because you're out of peak power if you do, and there's power much earlier. Traditional M engines must be reved out, to get the most out of them. That means you're forced to stay on top of it, keeping it in the optimal powerband, making for a more involving driving experience.

Not just M cars, either-- if you think about a list of the best drivers cars in the last 50 years, all of them have that characteristic-- GT3s, NSX, S2000, Integera, M cars, lotuses, Ferraris, Miatas, CRXs. F1s, etc. Having to work an engine over to get the most out of it is a large part of what creates an involving driving experience (along with, for me, good feel, a predictable chassis, and accessible limits).

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Chris Harris has lost the ability to say anything negative about any car in the last couple years. Everything is sunshine and rainbows, per Harris. A far cry from the presenter that got banned from reviewing ferraris long ago (in fact, his decent to rainbows and sunshine land probably began when he made his "I'm sorry Ferrari, please take me back, your cars are awesome" video).

Since he bought one for himself, we can assume he meant what he said. Jeremy Clarkson has no issue insulting a car or expressing his disappointment but he had nothing but glowing things to say as well. It may be hard to come to terms with for you....but a decent amount of people actually think the F8x is brilliant.

The F8X can rev high, for a turbo engine. But, that's missing the point. There's no need to rev it out, because you're out of peak power if you do, and there's power much earlier. Traditional M engines must be reved out, to get the most out of them. That means you're forced to stay on top of it, keeping it in the optimal powerband, making for a more involving driving experience.

Again, that's subjective. If I'm tracking a car, admittedly I'd rather an NA, but as a DD I actually prefer a turbo or other FI car, just love the low end grunt plus from a practicality standpoint, I don't have to let it hit 6500 RPM just to merge onto an interstate, hell even in my F30, I can simply apply a little more pressure on the accelerate and off it goes.

Not just M cars, either-- if you think about a list of the best drivers cars in the last 50 years, all of them have that characteristic-- GT3s, NSX, S2000, Integera, M cars, lotuses, Ferraris, Miatas, CRXs, etc. Having to work an engine over to get the most out of it is a large part of what creates an involving driving experience (along with, for me, good feel, a predictable chassis, and accessible limits).

Yeah I remember vividly driving an S2000 and RSX Type S...which was just a somewhat more refined Integra. Great fun, but tiresome in everyday driving. By the time I was done, I had a great time driving them but in scooting around town, it got tiresome having to wail on it just to get any power. Again, that's just my preference.

I'd love to take one onto a track where I couldn't careless about keeping it in the upper RPM band and listening to the engine wail but around the streets of urban DC? Not so much.

[W///]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

I got his point, what you and the presenter forget, is that driving experience isn't an objective thing. What you may hate to drive, someone else may love (Chris Harris raves about the F8x, as do other Top Gear presenters but you can just as easy find someone who hates it, such as yourself).

Some people prefer the low end availability of torque, which yes is quite the departure of the wailing high RPM NA engines of the past, but that's not to say BMW's turbocharged engines don't love to rev as they can rev fairly high comparative to other turbos.

Yup, exactly. The 2002 guys probably think his beloved E46 M3 is a big pile of crap too, with ricer mods such as quad exhausts and fake fender vents.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Again, that's subjective. If I'm tracking a car, admittedly I'd rather an NA, but as a DD I actually prefer a turbo or other FI car, just love the low end grunt plus from a practicality standpoint, I don't have to let it hit 6500 RPM just to merge onto an interstate, hell even in my F30, I can simply apply a little more pressure on the accelerate and off it goes.

Yeah I remember vividly driving an S2000 and RSX Type S...which was just a somewhat more refined Integra. Great fun, but tiresome in everyday driving. By the time I was done, I had a great time driving them but in scooting around town, it got tiresome having to wail on it just to get any power. Again, that's just my preference.

I'd love to take one onto a track where I couldn't careless about keeping it in the upper RPM band and listening to the engine wail but around the streets of urban DC? Not so much.

I agree the Hondas are tiresome, which is why I never bought one. The brilliance of BMW was the sporty experience combined with the high quality materials (including sound deadening). I mentioned them because previously I got ridden for only mentioning a car at a high price point (the Aston in the video), so this time it seemed worthwhile to point out that this was true of drivers cars at any/all price points.

But, the S62 in my M5 is easily my least favorite thing about the car.. and it doesn't even suffer from the throttle response/lag issue of turbo engines.

Originally Posted by W///

Yup, exactly. The 2002 guys probably think his beloved E46 M3 is a big pile of crap too, with ricer mods such as quad exhausts and fake fender vents.

The quad exhaust is crap-- I'd much rather have 2 pipes (on one side) and a spare tire hole. Whoever thought 4 exhaust pipes was a good idea was a moron.

One of the fender vents is slightly functional-- ecu cooling The other is for symmetry. I'd rather have none, but the 2002 owner probably wouldn't get too upset since the 3.0 CS(L) also had them.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by W///

All this ranting about how BMW has lost their way has been around since the beginning. I supposed this is what happened when the 2002 went away, when the E30 went away ect ect....

Good point. My memory is pretty good and although the internet wasn't around, there have been plenty of negative comments for each generation.

BTW, for those with issues with BMW, which generation was the pinnacle, from which BMW have lost their way?

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Good point. My memory is pretty good and although the internet wasn't around, there have been plenty of negative comments for each generation.

BTW, for those with issues with BMW, which generation was the pinnacle, from which BMW have lost their way?

For me, e46 is pinnacle. I can enjoy/make a case for every car 2002-e9x, but the e46 M3 best combines the attributes I like.

I'd say... E46 > e30 > e36 > e9X.

Earlier than e30 is probably too old to use as a DD at this point.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Obioban

For me, e46 is pinnacle. I can enjoy/make a case for every car 2002-e9x, but the e46 M3 best combines the attributes I like.

I'd say... E46 > e30 > e36 > e9X.

Earlier than e30 is probably too old to use as a DD at this point.

I had a 2006 E46 M3 for eight years before I got my M4. I loved that car and hated to see it go, but after I got the M4 I never looked back. The M4 is just so superior to the E46 M3 in every aspect, except maybe size.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

I had a 2006 E46 M3 for eight years before I got my M4. I loved that car and hated to see it go, but after I got the M4 I never looked back. The M4 is just so superior to the E46 M3 in every aspect, except maybe size.

Size, steering feel, size, throttle response/lag, size, ability to be worked on, size.

Don't think any of those are subjective.

Subjectively, I find the engine worse than... Any other M3, except maybe the US e36 M3 engine.

[FogCityM3]

BMW rested on its laurels and essentially tried to be the brand of all things for all people. Sure it sells a lot more cars and makes more money in the short run. However it has abandoned its core performance roots, which is how they ascended in the first place. You don't see Porsche having this issue and even the SUVs are very fun vehicles to drive.

A lot of people believe the magazine opinions are driven by ad dollars, but just drive the cars over the generations and judge for yourself....there is a lot that has been lost and competition has caught up. Instead reinvestment occurred in the i-brand which is flailing with low sales relative to the investment in capital and talent. ///M is no longer a separate company, retains very little autonomy and the hardcore ///M engineers and supportive execs have pretty much left the company.

It is clear that the M2 was developed in a way that directly responded to the mistakes made and critical dis-acclaim with the M4, so at least there is some recognition of the issues internally, but question is will it continue beyond 1-2 good models.

[insanecoder]

Um I've ordered a near fully loaded 340i and I like it better than my friend's 335 I tested.
Its still the segment leader imo you need to spec it right and the engines got pull and has room to grow.
The only other car comparable imo is the Jag XE and its double wishbone.. otherwise this is it. Other cars got this dont got that. 340i almost has it all..
And no I wouldnt buy a used BMW either unless you knew its owner babied it.. repairs are overly expensive

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Size, steering feel, size, throttle response/lag, size, ability to be worked on, size.

Don't think any of those are subjective.

Subjectively, I find the engine worse than... Any other M3, except maybe the US e36 M3 engine.

Your opinion - not mine.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

Your opinion - not mine.

In your opinion...
Does any generation M3 have worse steering feel than the f8x?
Does any generation M3 have worse throttle response than the f8x?
Is any generation M3 harder to work on than the f8x?

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

What brand out there appeals to you over BMW right now?

Tesla.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Obioban

In your opinion...
Does any generation M3 have worse steering feel than the f8x?
Does any generation M3 have worse throttle response than the f8x?
Is any generation M3 harder to work on than the f8x?

There is nothing wrong with the steering feel on my M4 - enjoy canyon carving with it as much as my E46 M3.

The throttle response in my M4 is excellent and with the torque, when you touch the throttle something happens - best of any BMW that I have owned.

I really don't care about working on it - I don't do my own work, but in 2 years it hasn't required any work.

I bet you are a lot of fun at car club events.